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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    huge personal survival? rogues should take much less damage than just about every other class with abilities like vanish feint and cloak.
    In 10m that MAY be true. I tend to minimize the damage I have to take (Sonic "boom" on Shek'reez, Force and Verve, ...), but in 25m it's almost certain you will be healed through and overhealed after because everyone is spamming insane AE heal and you'll end up taking a PoH/Radiance/LoD/whatever that will overheal you because you took less damage than your mate next to you, but HE has to be healed.

    Rogue would bring something if all the heals were single target, that's not the case

  2. #102
    High Overlord Zace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kortiah View Post
    In 10m that MAY be true. I tend to minimize the damage I have to take (Sonic "boom" on Shek'reez, Force and Verve, ...), but in 25m it's almost certain you will be healed through and overhealed after because everyone is spamming insane AE heal and you'll end up taking a PoH/Radiance/LoD/whatever that will overheal you because you took less damage than your mate next to you, but HE has to be healed.

    Rogue would bring something if all the heals were single target, that's not the case
    Oh..my..god...

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Enhshamanlol View Post
    You really never tryed envenom+Fok before then. It's pretty decent, Or Get 10 combo points envenom then crimson tempest then FoK spam. It's not bad.....

    Hell, Even as sub with a decent mastery you can pull good numbers with CT
    Exactly. Rogue aoe is great. Check the tooltip for Fan of Knives 5.0. Poison application massively increased. CT damage is weak but CT itself also has a chance to apply poisons. Assassination AOE is best, then Sub because of the extra energy regen and damage modifier through SV and 30% Agi, then Combat (except if you use AR/AB for aoe when Combat is briefly best).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 09:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zace View Post
    Oh..my..god...
    I dont buy this. You are not going to bench a class because their survivability is too good...

  4. #104
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    They were just stealthed.....

    So? no rule says every class must be taken, maybe their best players just dont pay rogues....
    No game will ever kill wow. Though Blizard themselves are making a pretty damm good attempt lately.

    THE FIRST RULE OF BRAWLERS GUILD IS YOU DO NOT GET INVITED TO BRAWLERS GUILD.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    They were just stealthed.....

    So? no rule says every class must be taken, maybe their best players just dont pay rogues....
    I dont know enough about the mechanics of Shekzeer heroic to say. However, they have great Rogues, and they clearly class stacked.

    The main point here is not to get too carried away. Top Guilds always class stack if it helps them get the quick kill. In some fights Rogues are amazing (e.g. Zonozz, Blackhorn, Spine) and in some fights other classes have better utility. The fact there were no Rogues does not take away from Rogues excellent utility and good damage.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    I dont know enough about the mechanics of Shekzeer heroic to say. However, they have great Rogues, and they clearly class stacked.

    The main point here is not to get too carried away. Top Guilds always class stack if it helps them get the quick kill. In some fights Rogues are amazing (e.g. Zonozz, Blackhorn, Spine) and in some fights other classes have better utility. The fact there were no Rogues does not take away from Rogues excellent utility and good damage.
    I;m rly sorry and lost but what is the excellent rogue utility to raid exactly cuz maybe i play my class wrong??

  7. #107
    Only raid utility a rogue bring (aside from maybe a huge snare on Courages on WoE and if you want to rogue-tank Garalon) is his own survability. And that's not called a raid utility, because as I said I believe in 25min you'll be healed through anyway (it just is good because you can't be one-shotted, or you put yourself down in the "ho shit I need to heal him before he dies!"-list of your healers.

    I would take a Rallying Cry/Raid-feint (like 20% ?) for rogues anytime instead of Feint in 25m raids.

  8. #108
    You just can't take rogue's survival ability as a great utility as Blizz would have to balance bosses around rogues which they obviously don't do. If you can down a boss without taking a rogue who has good survival stuff but and medicore damage compared to someone who brings raidwide dps cd's and does medicore damage then whom would you chose?

  9. #109
    Alright, the kill video is out, along with multiple kills by other guilds, so here's why we didn't have Rogues:

    -Sonic Blade will just kill you. With the adds stacked up at all, it will one-shot you
    -Fixates will turn and instakill you. Yes, we have fixate timers/etc, but it's incredibly inefficient to be in melee for 8 seconds, out for 4 while new fixates go out, then head back in
    -ALL MELEE are terrible for the strat we used, not just Rogues
    -We had 2 melee, a Warrior, whose RallyingCry/DemoBanner/SkullBanner were very useful, and a Ret Paladin for extra BoPs. Rogues just didn't offer much to the rest of the raid

    As someone said earlier, there are fights where some classes just aren't as useful as others, and this was one of them, it happens. It didn't diminish how happy I was when we got the kill, because we play the game for the guild's successes, not our own. This is a great instance for rogues yet again, mostly because of Feint and cleave. Once a little more gear comes in, and Rogues are able to live through Sonic Blade on the regular, this will change as well, as we are great for that fight for every phase but the add phase (Again, that's using our strategy, haven't seen the other kill vids yet). So no, the sky is not falling for us in PvE, it was just one fight where all melee were useless for the most part the way we did the fight. Rogues are fine

  10. #110
    And that settles that. Thanks Ahdehl.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
    Alright, the kill video is out, along with multiple kills by other guilds, so here's why we didn't have Rogues:

    -Sonic Blade will just kill you. With the adds stacked up at all, it will one-shot you
    -Fixates will turn and instakill you. Yes, we have fixate timers/etc, but it's incredibly inefficient to be in melee for 8 seconds, out for 4 while new fixates go out, then head back in
    -ALL MELEE are terrible for the strat we used, not just Rogues
    -We had 2 melee, a Warrior, whose RallyingCry/DemoBanner/SkullBanner were very useful, and a Ret Paladin for extra BoPs. Rogues just didn't offer much to the rest of the raid
    The last point is the problem. As you say, melee are in a very tough spot in this encounter, however, there was still enough incentive for you to bring the two you did. All rogues bring to any fight is personal dps and personal survival via feint, cloak, etc. Why can't rogues processes a quality beneficial to the raid outside themselves?

    I don't want to be essential for every fight, but I'd like to think I could contribute in a unique way. As it stands, we can be easily replaced by another melee who can do our job (melee dps) and bring things like RallyingCry/DemoBanner/SkullBanner, BoP, Heart of the Wild, etc to the raid.

    This situation by no means breaks or makes us unplayable, but it is rather off-putting.

  12. #112
    DKs, Windwalker Monks and Enh Shamans also weren't viable. It's one fight, with strict mechanics. Like I said, don't read too much into it. Method had Rogues in for their kill, since their strat allowed it. Ours depended on ranged dps.

  13. #113
    I was a little upset that melee are getting benched again, but after visiting wowprogress, I found this:

    On their first Empress kill:
    Method went with 5 melee (2 rogue, 2 dk, 1 warrior)
    vodka 8 melee (2 rogue, 3 dk, 2 pala, 1 warrior)
    Wraith 7 melee (3 enhancement (!), 2 dk, 1 monk, 1 warrior)
    Apex 7 melee (3 rogue, 2 dk, 1 feral, 1 warrior)

  14. #114
    Epic! OneSent's Avatar
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    What I fail to understand is: how does Blood Legion not bringing a rogue to their world-first kill affect anyone else?

    Is your raid spot now in jeopardy, because Blood Legion didn't use a rogue in their kill? Does your raid leader copy Blood Legion's strats perfectly, and bench classes accordingly? If not, then it is a pointless discussion. Some of you guys are acting like the fight can't be done with a rogue, when several other guilds have proven otherwise.

    There's no reason to make a mountain out of a molehill. It's not like BL is going to sit their rogues for every Heroic Empress kill from here on out. When your pushing for world-firsts, sometimes you have to min/max and get a little unorthodox in your raid setup. We've seen this many times in the past.

    Blizzard does not need to balance a class around one guild's world-first kill.
    If you showed a caveman our technology, he would think it was magic. If you showed modern man magic, he would think it was technology.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by OneSent View Post
    What I fail to understand is: how does Blood Legion not bringing a rogue to their world-first kill affect anyone else?
    Well to be fair here such kills are often taken as an example on how to approach an encounter the best way for guilds that are not top 10. Especially if it wasn't just Blood legion and say everyone who killed it till today would have only taken two melees it likely would have influence on the comps used by the guilds who are just starting to progress on that encounter.
    There aren't exactly many 6/6 hof 25man guilds yet and everyone else who did not clear the instance yet is going to get some inspiration out of the strategies those guilds used.

  16. #116
    If people want to use a world first kill to vent about class imbalances, that's their choice. I can't take it seriously though.

    My thought are that 4 mob fights don't work well with rogues - we either need 2 mobs (combat) or 6+ (assassination). Doubt there's much more to it than that.

    What Blood Legion uses in their extreme min/maxing sessions during 14h/day progress raiding might be interesting from a spectator's point of view, but it doesn't affect my personal performance - nor my guild position. That part I'm responsible for.

  17. #117
    Without doing the research, can someone tell me that the difference in strategy was between BL and Method i.e. where one allows melee and the other doesnt, please?

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