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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    This is a case of one state fighting a terrorist organization.
    This is the case of one state fighting several terrorist organizations which are oppressing their own people in order to get sympathy.

    Because, truly, no amounts of rockets falling in Israel can cause the damage these organizations cause on their own people on a daily basis. From brainwashing them at an early age at their schools, sending 10-15 year old boys to die as martyrs or soldiers, to holding the Gaza strip on a curfew with justice being a bullet on the street.

    They aren't even trying to become a country anymore. The Palestinians on the West Bank are the ones attempting that. The Gaza strip is a whole different story.

    I honestly can't stop repeating myself over this point: If you feel you're a true supporter of the Palestinian cause, go visit the Gaza strip, and then tell us if you actually still support Hamas, after watching the atrocities they cause against their own.

  2. #362
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felfury View Post
    Are two states not allowed to fight each other anymore? I mean that's how all of our current countries became what they are anyway.
    Total War is pretty much frowned upon in the international community these days, to the point where any country practicing total war would probably find a coalition of countries against it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 09:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    This is the case of one state fighting several terrorist organizations which are oppressing their own people in order to get sympathy.

    Because, truly, no amounts of rockets falling in Israel can cause the damage these organizations cause on their own people on a daily basis. From brainwashing them at an early age at their schools, sending 10-15 year old boys to die as martyrs or soldiers, to holding the Gaza strip on a curfew with justice being a bullet on the street.

    They aren't even trying to become a country anymore. The Palestinians on the West Bank are the ones attempting that. The Gaza strip is a whole different story.

    I honestly can't stop repeating myself over this point: If you feel you're a true supporter of the Palestinian cause, go visit the Gaza strip, and then tell us if you actually still support Hamas, after watching the atrocities they cause against their own.
    My Gazan cousin would disagree with you wholeheartedly. He grew up there and has lived in the US for a decade now.
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    My Gazan cousin would disagree with you wholeheartedly. He grew up there and has lived in the US for a decade now.
    Which means he never lived under the Hamas government.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Which means he never lived under the Hamas government.
    Dunno, but he goes back to visit with some regularity.
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Dunno, but he goes back to visit with some regularity.
    If you could ask him his thoughts about the Hamas government, I'd be very interested in getting a picture from someone on "the inside".

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    If you could ask him his thoughts about the Hamas government, I'd be very interested in getting a picture from someone on "the inside".
    same here honestly. hamas is much maligned here, and i would kind of like some kind of gauge as to how accurate what we hear is

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    If you could ask him his thoughts about the Hamas government, I'd be very interested in getting a picture from someone on "the inside".
    Sure, I'll ask him about it the next chance I get. If you could send me a PM, it'd help me remember to do so.
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Sure, I'll ask him about it the next chance I get. If you could send me a PM, it'd help me remember to do so.
    Done. Thanks!

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Done. Thanks!
    I've sent his wife (who's really my cousin, while he's a cousin by marriage) an email, so maybe I'll hear from him tonight.
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    there is one country in the Middle East that does have nuclear weapons and this same country has been occupying parts of Palestine in breach of UN resolutions for half a century. In fact Israel has broken more UN resolutions that any other in UN history. This country also has the benefit that their biggest ally, the USA, will veto any serious resolution against them preventing any action from being carried out. does that seem fair?
    Congrats , you managed to create a huge wall of text, u have just quoted stuff from 1955, I really think that you should understand somthing , no one even bothers to answer you, because your so called "Knowledge" on this matter Is close to zero, no one Is going to explein to you why you are wrong because your Ignorance and hatred made u go into blind berserk, so let us stop this flaming war because If u get me started pointing out things on all those poor little innocent countrys in the middle east my wall of text will be 50 times bigger.

    P.S the massacre in syria Is somthing that proves the entire attitude of arab countrys towards humen life.
    There is one side who does not send his children to suicide, no matter what their cause is.

  11. #371
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    This is a case of one state fighting a terrorist organization.
    thats your perception. others see it as the israelis waging war on another state because they dont agree with their govt. the brittish gov saw initial israeli founders as terrorists if you want to play that game.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    thats your perception. others see it as the israelis waging war on another state because they dont agree with their govt. the brittish gov saw initial israeli founders as terrorists if you want to play that game.
    International law has a very clear definition of what a state is, and the Gaza Strip doesn't qualify as one.
    The British didn't view Jewish settlers as terrorists. They viewed the ones who participated in terrorism as terrorists.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    International law has a very clear definition of what a state is, and the Gaza Strip doesn't qualify as one.
    The British didn't view Jewish settlers as terrorists. They viewed the ones who participated in terrorism as terrorists.

    Oh please don't start cherry picking internal law because then Israel would have to allow millions of Palestinians back to their homes immediately.

  14. #374
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    international law ie the UN and all the israeli contraventions listed above you mean?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 11:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keny View Post
    Congrats , you managed to create a huge wall of text, u have just quoted stuff from 1955, I really think that you should understand somthing , no one even bothers to answer you, because your so called "Knowledge" on this matter Is close to zero, no one Is going to explein to you why you are wrong because your Ignorance and hatred made u go into blind berserk, so let us stop this flaming war because If u get me started pointing out things on all those poor little innocent countrys in the middle east my wall of text will be 50 times bigger.

    P.S the massacre in syria Is somthing that proves the entire attitude of arab countrys towards humen life.
    There is one side who does not send his children to suicide, no matter what their cause is.
    thats israel in a nutshell keny isnt it. ignore the UN ignore the rights of everyone else because only the zionists are gods chosen people and they can do what they like. ignore the facts even, that list gos up to 2011 if you bother to check but your too blinded by your idealogy. you dont need suicide bombers as you have american firepower, without which you would have had to improve your attitude to your neighbours a long time ago.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Total War is pretty much frowned upon in the international community these days, to the point where any country practicing total war would probably find a coalition of countries against it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 09:13 PM ----------



    My Gazan cousin would disagree with you wholeheartedly. He grew up there and has lived in the US for a decade now.
    No disrespect to your cousin, but usually, Palestinians living abroad find it easier to vocally support Hamas than Israel, no matter what. Specially the ones who left the strip before Hamas took over. All they remember is how the strip used to be when the Jewish settlements were still around.
    The settlements are gone, and so is the IDF presence INSIDE the strip. That left a huge void, which was then easily filled by Hamas (Since they were the only other organization inside the strip with arms once the IDF left), by force more than by diplomacy.

    In my line of work, I am in daily contact with Palestinians, and while there are some who openly support Hamas, and some who openly state they would love to see Israel gone, the majority are simply your average human beings; They want to live, raise children, work and have lives. They want the conflict to end, they want peace, they want no part in terrorism, and in fact, they even fear the possibility of their families turning to terrorism, be it for money, ideals or simply because sometimes terrorist groups force people to take part by threatening their families. From experience, the average Palestinian in the West Bank has more fear of Hamas than of the IDF.

    I remember a story some years ago about an IDF sergeant released from duty for a hit-and-run accident in the West Bank. The IDF didn't, at any point, care if the victim was Israeli or Palestinian. The only reason he wasn't thrown in jail was because he was in duty and stopping would've been dangerous to his own life.
    I have never heard about Hamas incarcerating one of their "soldiers" for killing an innocent civilian with their rockets.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 12:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    international law ie the UN and all the israeli contraventions listed above you mean?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 11:06 PM ----------



    thats israel in a nutshell keny isnt it. ignore the UN ignore the rights of everyone else because only the zionists are gods chosen people and they can do what they like. ignore the facts even, that list gos up to 2011 if you bother to check but your too blinded by your idealogy. you dont need suicide bombers as you have american firepower, without which you would have had to improve your attitude to your neighbours a long time ago.
    I think you got your racism mixed up. Jews are god's chosen people. Zionists aren't.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post

    In my line of work, I am in daily contact with Palestinians, and while there are some who openly support Hamas, and some who openly state they would love to see Israel gone, the majority are simply your average human beings; They want to live, raise children, work and have lives. They want the conflict to end, they want peace, they want no part in terrorism, and in fact, they even fear the possibility of their families turning to terrorism, be it for money, ideals or simply because sometimes terrorist groups force people to take part by threatening their families. From experience, the average Palestinian in the West Bank has more fear of Hamas than of the IDF.
    My cousin is one of those average people. He was very upset once when he got into a taxi in Gaza and saw several fully automatic weapons and an RPG in the back, and left it as soon as he could. He wants nothing to do with any fighting or terrorism or anything like that. He's an extremely non-violent person who gets along with just about everyone. That said, he's vocally against the IDF's involvement in Gaza.
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    My cousin is one of those average people. He was very upset once when he got into a taxi in Gaza and saw several fully automatic weapons and an RPG in the back, and left it as soon as he could. He wants nothing to do with any fighting or terrorism or anything like that. He's an extremely non-violent person who gets along with just about everyone. That said, he's vocally against the IDF's involvement in Gaza.
    That is to be expected. Because of the circumstances, you can't really expect everyone to be happy about everything. The fact that, not only was he able to LEAVE the Gaza strip, but also visit it since then, more than once, proves the IDF doesn't just go around murdering people for no reason.

    If, as our beloved Zhengfei loves to say, Israel were systematically killing all Palestinians, I do not think your cousin would be safe in the US or Europe either.

    We all know it wouldn't really require a lot of effort for a military as strong as the IDF to never put one of their soldiers in harms' way, and instead simply use their Air Force to destroy anything they wanted. The fact is soldiers are human, and humane, therefore more reliable to act accordingly.
    I can tell you, from experience, that an Israeli soldier harming an innocent Palestinian for no reason, is not only discharged from duty, but also trialed, judged and punished. Once again, I doubt Hamas cares much if their rockets kill a child. In fact, they usually celebrate it.

    Both sides can be blamed for many things. But the media is really vicious and untrue towards the Israeli side, for many reasons unrelated to justice.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    That is to be expected. Because of the circumstances, you can't really expect everyone to be happy about everything. The fact that, not only was he able to LEAVE the Gaza strip, but also visit it since then, more than once, proves the IDF doesn't just go around murdering people for no reason.

    If, as our beloved Zhengfei loves to say, Israel were systematically killing all Palestinians, I do not think your cousin would be safe in the US or Europe either.

    We all know it wouldn't really require a lot of effort for a military as strong as the IDF to never put one of their soldiers in harms' way, and instead simply use their Air Force to destroy anything they wanted. The fact is soldiers are human, and humane, therefore more reliable to act accordingly.
    I can tell you, from experience, that an Israeli soldier harming an innocent Palestinian for no reason, is not only discharged from duty, but also trialed, judged and punished. Once again, I doubt Hamas cares much if their rockets kill a child. In fact, they usually celebrate it.

    Both sides can be blamed for many things. But the media is really vicious and untrue towards the Israeli side, for many reasons unrelated to justice.
    The media over here in the US generally is more slanted towards pointing out the rocket attacks and the suicide bombings and other such things that the Palestinians are doing and ignoring the land grabs and other such things the Israelis are doing. I'm not sure what it's like with the media elsewhere, of course, as I don't get out of the US as much as I used to.
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  19. #379
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    The British didn't view Jewish settlers as terrorists. They viewed the ones who participated in terrorism as terrorists.
    Not even the ones who were were blowing up British trains and railroads, bridges, Mandate HQ, assassinating the Minister of State to the region, and a UN Diplomat? Sure I suppose you could say the Deir Yassin massacre and Jaffa bombings were military actions in the civil war, but there was totally organized terrorism against Mandate authority by the Jewish immigrants, and it was seen as such by the Brits. For the most part, those extremists just got absorbed into the official military and rightwing political parties after independence.

    (of course there were settlers who just somewhere to live in peace, no matter who the neighbor, but the overall trend of history has been 'this is our land')
    Last edited by Mnevis; 2012-11-14 at 11:23 PM.

  20. #380
    here's a thought: why do palestinians want to live in hostile israeli territory? they speak arabic, live an arabic culture and are muslims.

    newsflash, there are 4 arabic countries right next to you that you can easily live in who speak the same language, live the same way and worship the same god. YET...you insist on living with the jews. my mind is blown.

    its like if america turned to shitsville, the logical place most americans would be headed to is canada: same language, close enough culture and religion. in the palestinians case, instead of heading to canada, they head to mexico and wonder why there's so much tension.

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