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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    So I was correct. This isn't about Israel or Palestine. This is about America. Further evidenced by the fact that Russia does the same thing for Syria, a regime that is openly and actively committing far worse crimes than Israel has ever dreamed of. Now, I do see people getting upset over Syria, I'll give you that. But they're mad at Syria, not Russia.

    So as I said, people only care about this because big bad America is involved.
    You don't really get the point do ya.
    Your example of Syria and Russia there is completely wrong.
    First, Israel, during the years, has shown to be as heavy handed, if not more, compared to what's happening in Syria at the moment.
    Second, people ARE questioning israel's actions, AND the us for fully supporting em, I don't understand what you are saying there when you say "angry with Syria not with Russia".
    And finally, things are COMPLETELY different. Russia isn't advocating what Assad is doing. Russia is preventing a UN action (they could Be right seeing how things developed in Libya).
    You CANNOT compare the relationship between USA and Israel with Russia and Syria.
    Last edited by Djalil; 2012-11-13 at 07:31 AM.

  2. #82
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    You CANNOT compare the relationship between USA and Israel with Russia and Syria.
    Russia is supplying the Syrian regime with military hardware.

    Just wanted you to know that.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Russia is supplying the Syrian regime with military hardware.

    Just wanted you to know that.
    Perfectly aware of that. But It's not only a matter of supplying weapons. Who doesn't. The west was arming rebels in Libya.
    Israel and the USA share something else. Full unconditioned ONE WAY ONLY support that allows them to do as they please.
    I wonder what's to gain for the USA with this.
    Surely not money or international support.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Their is not a single country that would accept a forming of a new country within their own borders. The US had it's civil war because the country split in 2, during WW1 and 2 every country fought back when they got invaded (talking about both sides here) and even when a country was taking over by the Germans their was still resistance groups fighting.

    Again their is not a single country that would accept a forming of a new country within their own borders, it does not mater if you think that Palestinian never existed because at the very least the land itself used to be part of the Arab nations.

    One of the things we as a race learned after WW2 is that it is stupid at best to take over a country after you defeated them. The formation of the UN is precisly because the leaders of that time felt that the WW2 resulted because of ww1, and if you look at germany and japan after ww2 you will see (at least the west side) that both where independent governments and that they where left mostly alone.



    This isn't really a argument that the Palestinians or any group of people could accept.

    Just because your opponent is stronger does not mean that you have to give up, attaining freedom does not stop just because your opponent has bigger tanks (in this case Palestinians don't have that), better rockets (Palestinians rocket only hit stuff by chance at best) or even better sticks.

    I'm personally wondering what the goal is of the Israel government and it's people because currently I don't see any end to this struggle since the government of Israel does not want peace. The reason why Obama and Netanyahu currently have a bad personal relationship is precisely because the Israel government does not want peace. Remember a few years ago Biden was send to Israel and the moment he arrived the government announced building of more houses in Palestinian lands, this really humiliated the American government because you can't have peace talks while at the same time aggressor is doing his thing.


    This isn't about religion, even if the land itself had nothing to do with religion people will still fight as long as they believe they have been robbed.
    Which country was here before Israel, again?
    The British mandate. And before that, only empires.
    Fact is, the Arabs of the region (note, Arabs, not Palestinians, because that term didn't exist until the 70's or so) declined the two state partition plan, and instead decided to launch an attack on the Jews living in the area once Israel was voted to be a country. Then 5 more countries joined (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq) the attack the day after the founding of Israel, all in an attempt to wipe Israel out and take the entire area for themselves.
    And they lost.

  5. #85
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Perfectly aware of that. But It's not only a matter of supplying weapons. Who doesn't. The west was arming rebels in Libya.
    Israel and the USA share something else. Full unconditioned ONE WAY ONLY support that allows them to do as they please.
    I wonder what's to gain for the USA with this.
    Surely not money or international support.
    As far as I can tell, we don't gain anything. But the Israelis are our brothers. In a world that hates us unconditionally, we have to keep our few friends powerful. Even if that means occasionally looking the other way...

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that what we do is any better than Russia or China or anyone else. But let's not pretend that breaking the rules is something exclusive to the US and Israel.

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    As far as I can tell, we don't gain anything. But the Israelis are our brothers. In a world that hates us unconditionally, we have to keep our few friends powerful. Even if that means occasionally looking the other way...

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that what we do is any better than Russia or China or anyone else. But let's not pretend that breaking the rules is something exclusive to the US and Israel.
    Which country has sponsored this form of cultural genocide and state sponsored terrorism for decades though? And I mean billions and billions of dollars sent along with military equipment and espionage information.

    This isn't just "selling them weapons," as loathesome as that is. The American government has vetoed any attempt by other First World countries to get Israel to stop massacring innocent people for having the audacity of fighting back when they are occupied.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  7. #87
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Which country has sponsored this form of cultural genocide and state sponsored terrorism for decades though? And I mean billions and billions of dollars sent along with military equipment and espionage information.

    This isn't just "selling them weapons," as loathesome as that is. The American government has vetoed any attempt by other First World countries to get Israel to stop massacring innocent people for having the audacity of fighting back when they are occupied.
    Again, looking at Russia. They've possibly sponsored more genocidal regimes than America has. I'd guess by a pretty comfortable margin.

    Let's just say that it's no coincidence that most of the world's most brutal dictators used old Soviet weapons.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Again, looking at Russia. They've possibly sponsored more genocidal regimes than America has. I'd guess by a pretty comfortable margin.

    Let's just say that it's no coincidence that most of the world's most brutal dictators used old Soviet weapons.
    Man you just don't get it. This is not a matter of comparison.
    Who cares about Russia, china, India whatever.
    We're talking about how Israel is bombing civil targets supported by the USA.
    Also, you said Israelis are our brothers. Why? Who said that? Why should the support to Israel be UNCONDITIONED especially when the economic situation isn't really bright? This is a twisted unhealthy relationship from which the USA has nothing but to lose from. In international relations, economically, you name it.
    Russia might have supported criminals of wars but that is NOT a justification for any other country to do the same. ESPECIALLY for a country that puts itself as the centre of democracy, justice and freedom.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Man you just don't get it. This is not a matter of comparison.
    Who cares about Russia, china, India whatever.
    We're talking about how Israel is bombing civil targets supported by the USA.
    Also, you said Israelis are our brothers. Why? Who said that? Why should the support to Israel be UNCONDITIONED especially when the economic situation isn't really bright? This is a twisted unhealthy relationship from which the USA has nothing but to lose from. In international relations, economically, you name it.
    Russia might have supported criminals of wars but that is NOT a justification for any other country to do the same. ESPECIALLY for a country that puts itself as the centre of democracy, justice and freedom.
    That bold sentence - I think you're confusing the two sides. Hamas fires rockets into cities. Israel uses surgical strikes as much as possible to take out the rocket squads.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    That bold sentence - I think you're confusing the two sides. Hamas fires rockets into cities. Israel uses surgical strikes as much as possible to take out the rocket squads.
    Sorry but that is just ridiculous.
    If by surgical strike you mean shelling a civil building with civils inside cause it hides terrorist then it's not surgical but butchery.
    Also there is plenty of examples of civil targeting during operation "cast lead" including the bombing of a school with un representatives inside. Plenty of usage of Cluster bombs in Lebanon.
    It's only what 5 years ago not 60 man.
    And it's not only limited to weapon usage. Some of the goods that aren't allowed in are just plain ridiculous. Milk for babies, cement.
    You don't answer to rockets with rockets. And Israel, the richest and more advanced country in the area should lead the example, not being the first one to retaliate heavily.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Sorry but that is just ridiculous.
    If by surgical strike you mean shelling a civil building with civils inside cause it hides terrorist then it's not surgical but butchery.
    Also there is plenty of examples of civil targeting during operation "cast lead" including the bombing of a school with un representatives inside. Plenty of usage of Cluster bombs in Lebanon.
    It's only what 5 years ago not 60 man.
    And it's not only limited to weapon usage. Some of the goods that aren't allowed in are just plain ridiculous. Milk for babies, cement.
    You don't answer to rockets with rockets. And Israel, the richest and more advanced country in the area should lead the example, not being the first one to retaliate heavily.
    So you're saying Israel should just sit idly by while its citizens are bombarded day in day out by rockets? Sure, that's not unreasonable at all...
    Also, notice that all of those actions by Israel are retaliatory. Not preemptive.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    So you're saying Israel should just sit idly by while its citizens are bombarded day in day out by rockets? Sure, that's not unreasonable at all...
    Also, notice that all of those actions by Israel are retaliatory. Not preemptive.
    "Day in day out" = exaggeration to prove someone's point. unhealthy to the debate. the number of casualties in 40 years of rocket launching is minimal. could easily be countered by taking a different approach AND does not justify such heavy retaliation. I'm talking facts here.
    Also, how about coming up with another option rather then bombing them all?
    It's not like its working anyway.
    Unless you want to kill them all, in which case I am right talking about genocide.
    And it's also pointless.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    "Day in day out" = exaggeration to prove someone's point. unhealthy to the debate. the number of casualties in 40 years of rocket launching is minimal. could easily be countered by taking a different approach AND does not justify such heavy retaliation. I'm talking facts here.
    Also, how about coming up with another option rather then bombing them all?
    It's not like its working anyway.
    Unless you want to kill them all, in which case I am right talking about genocide.
    And it's also pointless.
    Provide a better option, I beg you. We already implemented Iron Dome. But it's obviously not enough.
    So unless you have something better, the only two options are 1) sit by and do nothing while being bombarded constantly (and yes, it's constant), or 2) take out the launcher squads in order to deter others from doing it (or at least reduce the number of squads).

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Provide a better option, I beg you. We already implemented Iron Dome. But it's obviously not enough.
    So unless you have something better, the only two options are 1) sit by and do nothing while being bombarded constantly (and yes, it's constant), or 2) take out the launcher squads in order to deter others from doing it (or at least reduce the number of squads).
    Nobody said it was easy.
    The movement of Hamas into politics was a massive step towards the right path. As I said before that is exactly what happened in Northern Ireland and after a few years of struggle the resul is this. peace in the north. Sinn Fein is now a normal political party that refuses violence as an answer, shook hands with the queen and all that jazz.
    No it's not constant, stop saying that please.
    What Israel need to do is suck it up (have to pay for your mistakes), lift the blockade, show that a 2 country solution is possible (not really going anywhere with how things are now), help the switch of forces into politics, let proper elections happen, monitoring them without interfering, and deal with it in a civil way.
    All this while constantly defend its territory.
    Yes it won't be easy, and yes it'll take a while. But that's the only way for peace to be there.
    They nearly had it with the elections, but they had to go and ruin it.
    Gotta start from scratch now.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Nobody said it was easy.
    The movement of Hamas into politics was a massive step towards the right path. As I said before that is exactly what happened in Northern Ireland and after a few years of struggle the resul is this. peace in the north. Sinn Fein is now a normal political party that refuses violence as an answer, shook hands with the queen and all that jazz.
    No it's not constant, stop saying that please.
    What Israel need to do is suck it up (have to pay for your mistakes), lift the blockade, show that a 2 country solution is possible (not really going anywhere with how things are now), help the switch of forces into politics, let proper elections happen, monitoring them without interfering, and deal with it in a civil way.
    All this while constantly defend its territory.
    Yes it won't be easy, and yes it'll take a while. But that's the only way for peace to be there.
    They nearly had it with the elections, but they had to go and ruin it.
    Gotta start from scratch now.
    I'm sorry, do you live here that you keep claiming that?


    And what you're basically saying is that Israel should suffer massive attacks in order to show its willingness for peace. Brilliant solution...
    The instant that security regulations are lifted, we'll be back in the 2002 era, where getting on the bus was a huge life risk. I didn't enjoy that time (and even less so did the people who died), so no thank you.

  16. #96
    Israel is a lot of things, but they won the three day war. To the victor goes the spoils. Such is life.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    I'm sorry, do you live here that you keep claiming that?


    And what you're basically saying is that Israel should suffer massive attacks in order to show its willingness for peace. Brilliant solution...
    The instant that security regulations are lifted, we'll be back in the 2002 era, where getting on the bus was a huge life risk. I didn't enjoy that time (and even less so did the people who died), so no thank you.
    This is the only solution. And this is the only way of achieving it politically. The more you oppress them, the more you'll struggle when the time to do the right thing will come. And it will come. Shutting someone down completely doesnt fix the problem. Yes you will be in trouble. And so would be the Palestinians. But from that point you can move forward. As it is now, you just can't.
    What's required is a massive amount of effort from both sides.
    But it does happen. It happened in Northern Ireland which was even worse.
    Hold on....
    You're not really suggesting total extermination is the right solution are you?
    Last edited by Djalil; 2012-11-13 at 11:47 AM.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    This is the only solution. And this is the only way of achieving it politically. The more you oppress them, the more you'll struggle when the time to do the right thing will come. And it will come. Shutting someone down completely doesnt fix the problem. Yes you will be in trouble. And so would be the Palestinians. But from that point you can move forward. As it is now, you just can't.
    What's required is a massive amount of effort from both sides.
    But it does happen. It happened in Northern Ireland which was even worse.
    No state can abdicate from protecting its population, which is what you are suggesting. Tell you what, go look up the number of rockets fired monthly before operation Cast lead and after it. Those numbers are fairly self-explanatory.

    And no, even in its darkest periods, NI did not come even close to the second intifada levels of violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    This law abiding person doesn't consider taking your guns away to be a punishment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Done. Now stop talking to me. Let the ban come now.

  19. #99
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Nobody said it was easy.
    The movement of Hamas into politics was a massive step towards the right path. As I said before that is exactly what happened in Northern Ireland and after a few years of struggle the resul is this. peace in the north. Sinn Fein is now a normal political party that refuses violence as an answer, shook hands with the queen and all that jazz.
    No it's not constant, stop saying that please.
    What Israel need to do is suck it up (have to pay for your mistakes), lift the blockade, show that a 2 country solution is possible (not really going anywhere with how things are now), help the switch of forces into politics, let proper elections happen, monitoring them without interfering, and deal with it in a civil way.
    All this while constantly defend its territory.
    Yes it won't be easy, and yes it'll take a while. But that's the only way for peace to be there.
    They nearly had it with the elections, but they had to go and ruin it.
    Gotta start from scratch now.
    What are you talking about? Sinn Fein has always been a "normal" political party, since its founding in 1906. The Provisional IRA, the group responsible for much of the violence related to Northern Ireland was created with help from elements of Sinn Fein in the late 1960. The reason the IRA stopped killing people is because the British government, various Irish Republican groups, and the Irish government were beginning multiparty talks that Sinn Fein was barred from thanks to their association with the IRA. Sinn Fein was to forced to rein the IRA in or face a loss of political relevance in the new emerging order. If Israel and the Palestinians are to follow the Irish model, then Israel should reach out to other Palestinian stakeholders and attempt to marginalize Hamas politically.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    multiparty talks that Sinn Fein was barred from thanks to their association with the IRA.
    Association that now is no more.
    Exactly what I meant. Point still valid.
    Last edited by Djalil; 2012-11-13 at 12:04 PM.

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