"If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips"
Using B'tselem's figures they calculated that 816 Palestinians had been killed in Gaza during the two year period, 360 of whom were civilians. 1,010 Israelis were killed between September 29, 2000 and January 1, 2005. Of these, 773 were civilians killed in Palestinian attacks, resulting in a ratio of approximately 5:1.
The civilian casualty rate of the targeted assassinations was surveyed by Haaretz military journalist Amos Harel. In 2002 and 2003, the ratio was 1:1
The civilian casualty ratio dropped steeply to 1:28 in late 2005, meaning one civilian killed for every 28 militants killed.
However, in 2007 and 2008 the ratio dropped to an unprecedented level of less than 1:30, or 2–3 percent of the total casualties being civilian
the ratio is 1:3 according to the Israeli figures and 60% civilians (3:2) according to B'Tselem's figures. Katz attributes the IDF's low ratio in the Gaza War and in the year preceding it to Israel's investment in special weapons systems, including small smart bombs that minimize collateral damage, and to an upscaled Israeli effort to warn civilians to flee areas and to divert missiles at the last moment if civilians entered a planned strike zone.
Journalist and commentator Evelyn Gordon writes in Commentary that the civilian casualty ratio in Operation Cast Lead was 39 percent (2:3), using however only the preliminary Israeli estimates, but that 56 or 74 percent were civilians according to B'Tselem's figures, depending on whether 248 Hamas policemen are considered combatants or civilians; and 65 or 83 percent according to the figures of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualty rates.
Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare."
tl;dr with the possible exception of current US drones strikes, Israel vs Gaza produces the lowest ratio of civilian deaths.
Last edited by Olo; 2012-11-20 at 06:33 AM.
Civilians die in battle. It's a fact of war and it's an awful fact. However people trying to suggest that Israel should do nothing and let their Iron Dome system take care of all the rockets is simply stupid. Iron Dome has roughly an 85-90% success rate at taking out the rockets. So that means 1 out 10 will land in a city (it ignores rockets that are going to fall in random ass places.) Now factor in that 1 in 8 rockets don't even make it outside the borders of Palestine. Those rockets that fall short have killed civilians.
So do some basic math here.
Hamas launches rockets at Israel. Israel targets the place where those rockets were launched from. Calls up the area where the strike is going to happen to warn the locals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTEDVC5ZqPA&feature=plcp) Then attacks that area. People choose not to leave and end up as collateral damage.
Hamas launches rocket at Israel and it falls short killing a family that the rocket landed in.
What is common in all this...Hamas launching a rocket at Israel.
At the end of the day the numbers are skewed as Hamas claims deaths by rocket misfires as people killed by Israeli bombing. If they were trying to kill civilians why wouldn't it be in the number of 10,000 killed? Why would they bother to abort missions on targets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgHyT3FzTF8&feature=plcp) because innocent civilians will be caught up in it. Or make sure that when they see rocket fire that there are no innocent bystanders when they take the target out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6a112wRmBs&feature=plcp)
Hamas doesn't do any of that. They just launch the rocket and hope that it hits a target. They don't care if it's the command and control center or a school or even a hospital. They just try to inflict as much damage as possible. They are like the typical kid who talks shit and makes fun of people then the instant you give it right back to them they break down and cry and tell on you.
It's pretty rough trying to fight a war cleanly when the other side openly encourages martyrdom. There was a video that Liara linked earlier in the thread, that has one of the leaders of Hamas(maybe THE leader? I don't remember) essentially saying that they were "a nation of martyrdom". I honestly don't know what the average Palestinian thinks about this, but their leaders sure seem to think that their lives are cheap. This doesn't bother you at all?
I'm also a little confused. When Hamas launches rocket strikes into civilian territory for weeks on end, and then finally Israel counterattacks, Hamas is vindicated? How do you figure that? It's not like Hamas keeps pushing for peaceful reconciliation and Israel keeps sending in the bombs. I'm not sure what would happen if the Palestinians suddenly decided they were tired of all the death and the fighting, and the reason I'm not sure is because it has NEVER HAPPENED. The region unilaterally rejects the presence of Israel, but can't enforce their will militarily, so this will just drag on and on and on until either Israel is destroyed or the Arabs decide they want peace. It's terrible, but I'm not sure how you expect Israel to accept a situation in which their citizens are constantly under the threat of death.
Paladin - Retired, thank God. It was a good run, though.
It seems like the public has been juiced up on propaganda for the last few years, we are marching towards a war with Iran and most of you don't even realize it. If you aren't satisfied with being a mindless puppet then I suggest you go look up Noam Chomsky and listen to some of his lectures.
Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
I will believe that corporations are people when Texas executes one
-Money is like looks and personality insurance
"When there is oppression... There will always be a resistance."
Maybe Godzilla needs to learn to chill out a little and go play with Mothra for a couple of decades.
Afaik, civillians on both sides are growing weary of the whole thing. It would be nice if one or the other side could negeotiate a relatively small neutral zone where the civillians are evacuated and then let things expand from there.
Last edited by Frazzle.d; 2012-11-20 at 08:52 AM.
Fly fast, stay low, hit hard.
- madethisfor1postYou'd think the 8th Anniversary was the Cheese Anniversary to go with all the whine.
Ravenholdt EU - Nice Toons: Frazzlebeard, Menardis, Plight - Less So: Slîght
Has anyone here actually stopped to think why the death toll is higher on the Palestinian side?
And to add something to what was said in this quote - Israel drops thousands of leaflets and makes hundreds if not thousands of phone calls in order to warn Palestinian Civilians about incoming air strikes, so that they can get to safety. The IDF tries to minimize collateral damage, but sadly it doesn't always work.Counting casualties only tells you how many casualties there are. Nothing else. "Side A is right and B is wrong" isn't an assumption you can make out of this statistic. It's simply a wrong and illogical thought process.
Here are some facts that explain the figures:
1. Hamas and the Islamic Palestinian Jihad are firing unguided rockets vaguely pointed into civilian population hoping to hit as many innocent people as possible. The IDF has advanced guided weapons and is actually using them to hit specific targets. That makes for more efficient fire (not to mention morality and international law - yes, it's illegal to fire deliberately at innocent civilians, whereas collateral damage is legal in certain circumstances).
2. Israelis have bomb shelters and missile defense systems to protect the population from incoming rockets. Also, the Israeli population generally knows what to do and how to behave when under attack. This means Israel is minimizing the chance of its civilians being hit.
3. The Palestinian population ISN'T UNDER ATTACK (shocking isn't it?). The IDF targets terrorist units, commanders, and facilities, and is pretty proficient at it.
4. When Palestinian citizens do get hit, it's either in error (quite rare) or collateral damage due to being used as "human shields" (more frequent because Hamas is operating from within civilian populated areas). So if innocent civilians do get injured or die in Gaza - blame Hamas for being cowards and hiding among them.
"But Gaza is small, anywhere there is a civilian population, they can't operate from elsewhere" - this apologetic nonsense is wrong and unacceptable by any standard. You've probably never actually seen Gaza. There are unpopulated areas in Gaza (fields and plantations for one) from which rockets can be fired if they so desired, but it doesn't line up with Hamas's strategy which includes maximizing civilian casualties in Gaza for purposes of media coverage, international pressure against Israel, and to hamper Israel's ability to operate and retaliate.
Needless to say, firing from unpopulated areas makes it way easier for Israel to stop said fire and hit the units involved. Hence - not a good idea. This means, if Hamas actually gave a $#!t about the Palestinian population - they won't engage a far superior enemy such as Israel in a way that would endanger the Palestinian civilians in the first place! That's like a mouse taunting an elephant and then being surprised for being stepped on.
Hamas's power is in the "misfortune" of the Palestinian people. They'll never tell you there isn't a humanitarian crisis in Gaza (there isn't - Israel provides all the aid required to make sure there isn't), they'll never tell you they have fancy houses and shopping centers (they do) and they'll never give you the real picture or an honest lesson in history. These things just don't line up with their doctrine.
Now you know why there are more casualties in Gaza than in Israel.
Last edited by Liara; 2012-11-20 at 09:07 AM.
We in Germany have more activism against the building of a train station than against that crap. Hell you should know you went terrorist hunting with planes as well.
"Israel says it is putting plans for a ground operation "on hold" to give talks on a ceasefire with Hamas militants in Gaza a chance."
is it coincidence that the UN was due to vote this month on recognition of palestine when the israelis started the current unrest by shooting dead a palestinian child? what about the trillion dollar gas field discovered largely in gaza waters that even now the Israelis are stealing. you forced the palestinians into concentration camps/ghettos and now discover theres actually something valuable there and so are coming after them again. like the american indian youll just keep harrying them till youve stolen everything.
have a look at
This is a war of conquest. Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas reserves off the Gaza coastline.
Egypt’s decision last month to stop selling natural gas to Israel could be a harbinger of increasingly confrontational Egyptian-Israeli relations, an indication of a worsening Egyptian economy, or both.
Who Owns the Gas Fields
The issue of sovereignty over Gaza’s gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to Palestine.
The death of Yasser Arafat, the election of the Hamas government and the ruin of the Palestinian Authority have enabled Israel to establish de facto control over Gaza’s offshore gas reserves.
British Gas (BG Group) has been dealing with the Tel Aviv government. In turn, the Hamas government has been bypassed in regards to exploration and development rights over the gas fields.
The election of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 was a major turning point. Palestine’s sovereignty over the offshore gas fields was challenged in the Israeli Supreme Court. Sharon stated unequivocally that “Israel would never buy gas from Palestine” intimating that Gaza’s offshore gas reserves belong to Israel.
In 2003, Ariel Sharon, vetoed an initial deal, which would allow British Gas to supply Israel with natural gas from Gaza’s offshore wells. (The Independent, August 19, 2003)
The election victory of Hamas in 2006 was conducive to the demise of the Palestinian Authority, which became confined to the West Bank, under the proxy regime of Mahmoud Abbas.
In 2006, British Gas “was close to signing a deal to pump the gas to Egypt.” (Times, May, 23, 2007). According to reports, British Prime Minister Tony Blair intervened on behalf of Israel with a view to shunting the agreement with Egypt.
The following year, in May 2007, the Israeli Cabinet approved a proposal by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert “to buy gas from the Palestinian Authority.” The proposed contract was for $4 billion, with profits of the order of $2 billion of which one billion was to go the Palestinians.
Tel Aviv, however, had no intention on sharing the revenues with Palestine. An Israeli team of negotiators was set up by the Israeli Cabinet to thrash out a deal with the BG Group, bypassing both the Hamas government and the Palestinian Authority:
“Israeli defence authorities want the Palestinians to be paid in goods and services and insist that no money go to the Hamas-controlled Government.” (Ibid, emphasis added)
The objective was essentially to nullify the contract signed in 1999 between the BG Group and the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat.
Under the proposed 2007 agreement with BG, Palestinian gas from Gaza’s offshore wells was to be channeled by an undersea pipeline to the Israeli seaport of Ashkelon, thereby transferring control over the sale of the natural gas to Israel.
The deal fell through. The negotiations were suspended:
”Mossad Chief Meir Dagan opposed the transaction on security grounds, that the proceeds would fund terror”. (Member of Knesset Gilad Erdan, Address to the Knesset on “The Intention of Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to Purchase Gas from the Palestinians When Payment Will Serve Hamas,” March 1, 2006, quoted in Lt. Gen. (ret.) Moshe Yaalon, Does the Prospective Purchase of British Gas from Gaza’s Coastal Waters Threaten Israel’s National Security? Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, October 2007)
Israel’s intent was to foreclose the possibility that royalties be paid to the Palestinians. In December 2007, The BG Group withdrew from the negotiations with Israel and in January 2008 they closed their office in Israel.(BG website).
The main reason is that Hamas uses civilians as "shields", whereas Israel provides defense to its civilians.
And frankly, if Israel weren't dropping leaflets, making phone calls and sending SMSs to Gazans warning them of incoming strikes, the toll would probably be higher.