Page 60 of 81 FirstFirst ...
10
50
58
59
60
61
62
70
... LastLast
  1. #1181
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    St Petersburg
    Posts
    11,423
    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    "Oh my god, let's revolt!" said absolutely nobody after the FBI literally did just that when they stormed David Koresh's little cult hideout in Waco. Besides, the analogy falls apart when you consider that the Palestinians are being governed by the very people who are responsible for these attacks. If Hamas really cared about the casualties that they take, they'd cordon off their launch sites and ban civilians from entering. Obviously, it would make for a better target, and thus Hamas cares more about killing Israelis than defending their own people.
    Very nice false equivalency. Try to learn more about the entire situation there, and why exactly it is that Hamas supporters are among the populace themselves. Here's a hint: a good part of the people do not hate Hamas.

    It's pretty rough trying to fight a war cleanly when the other side openly encourages martyrdom. There was a video that Liara linked earlier in the thread, that has one of the leaders of Hamas(maybe THE leader? I don't remember) essentially saying that they were "a nation of martyrdom". I honestly don't know what the average Palestinian thinks about this, but their leaders sure seem to think that their lives are cheap. This doesn't bother you at all?
    I've already responded to this, and why Israel continuing to put pressure on the people to try to make them give up Hamas will not work. Scroll up.

    I'm also a little confused. When Hamas launches rocket strikes into civilian territory for weeks on end, and then finally Israel counterattacks, Hamas is vindicated? How do you figure that?
    Don't do selective reading. I never once said that the Palestinians were justified in their attacks. I did, however, say that Israel overall has a greater hand in crimes against humanity and because it is in a position of power has a greater responsibility in giving up some to resolve the conflict. This isn't the 60's. If Israel shows some signs of weakness, the rest of the Middle East isn't going to descend on them intent on destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian-to-soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death.
    And what exactly was the wikipedia article you were quoting? I'm not questioning the use of wikipedia, since you also included the source numbers, but without putting out the link to the actual article its not possible to follow up on what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    It is being used for that purpose. I am sure that all those rockets that are fired at Israel are targeted at the military and that any sort of civilians casualty is just really really unlucky.
    What exactly is the military function of an art museum? Or a radio station, when the military has their own communication methods?
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  2. #1182
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    A Black Land of Sorcery and Nameless Horror
    Posts
    1,145
    those images of the IDF using children as shields for their soldiers could come straight from Poland under the nazis. absolutely barbaric. no doubt well get the usual oh it didnt happen, its all fake, the work of anti semites etc but i think enough people are wakening up to whats really going on in gaza now to see through their lies.

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    And what exactly was the wikipedia article you were quoting? I'm not questioning the use of wikipedia, since you also included the source numbers, but without putting out the link to the actual article its not possible to follow up on what you said.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Very nice false equivalency. Try to learn more about the entire situation there, and why exactly it is that Hamas supporters are among the populace themselves. Here's a hint: a good part of the people do not hate Hamas.
    Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I've already responded to this, and why Israel continuing to put pressure on the people to try to make them give up Hamas will not work. Scroll up.
    Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Don't do selective reading. I never once said that the Palestinians were justified in their attacks. I did, however, say that Israel overall has a greater hand in crimes against humanity and because it is in a position of power has a greater responsibility in giving up some to resolve the conflict. This isn't the 60's. If Israel shows some signs of weakness, the rest of the Middle East isn't going to descend on them intent on destruction.
    If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.

    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    but theyre nice people really. posting this just means your anti semitic /sarcasm
    Ooh, ooh, can I quote from the same article too?

    During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shields, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.[10]
    In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.[11]
    Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."[12] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.[13]
    The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.[14]
    On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation.[15] Local eyewitnesses later confirmed that Hamas militants had fired at Israeli troops from adjacent a UN school for girls where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge.[16][17] Forty-three Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire.[18] Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.[19]
    The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, an Israeli NGO with close ties to the IDF,[20] accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings—including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives’ houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones".[21][22] The IDF and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a video accusing Hamas in a systematic use of civilians as human shield, including several photoes of Hamas militants using children as human shield and two videoes from the Gaza War (2008-2009) showing Hamas militants grabbing children, allegdly using them as a human shield.[23] The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.[24]

  6. #1186
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    A Black Land of Sorcery and Nameless Horror
    Posts
    1,145
    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace
    no thats the version of the truth you "victimised" israelis like to portray. the truth is that you had peace until the IDF killed a 13 year old palestinian boy on Nov 8th. every time there has been a deal the israelis have broken it. you lie and cheat and play the victim card. you wall people up in a ghetto, brutalise them and then provoke a reaction because you dont want peace. you want their land and now you want the massive gas and oil reserves recently discovered off the gaza coast. is it coincidence this all started up just weeks before the UN was due to vote on palestinian state hood? ofc it wasnt.

    Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha'aretz):

    "The Intifada is the Palestinian's people's war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime."

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    Okay?

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
    Israel is an apartheid state, it is basically South Africa v2.0, and like South Africa it will only change when the United States finally says that it has to change.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    The stars may be far away, but people still reach for them. -My Grandfather
    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

  8. #1188
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    St Petersburg
    Posts
    11,423
    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
    Its not only different on a few details here and there, its different in just about every way. For example, when the women and children tried to flee, they were shot down, not by the police, but by Koresh and his main supporters. What's more, the fire was either caused by the accidental ignition of tear gas or purposefully set by those aside, ie the fire was not the main line of attack. Stop trying to establish strawmen.

    Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?
    Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?


    If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.
    You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
    The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?
    The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  9. #1189
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,574
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Yeah, I figured you'd pull something like that. Call me when you raid weapon caches and prevent easily traded and bought weapons from being circulated.
    What do you think that I am lying, I merely stated my experience...

  10. #1190
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    18,847
    Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...
    Well 1, 2, 3, take my hand and come with me
    Because you look so fine
    And I really wanna make you mine

  11. #1191
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Counciltucky
    Posts
    5,972
    It really is an ugly and sad situation dating all the way back to WWII. If the holocaust had not happened then Israel probably would not have happened. Its just an ongoing circle of hate with no end in sight. All it takes is one wacko or zealot on either side to start things all over again whenever they finally start making headway. Personally I don't see any sort of permanent peace ever being possible unless an unbiased third party comes in and imposes reconciliation and integration.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    What do you think that I am lying, I merely stated my experience...
    That you haven't heard gunshots in Syria for years? Yeah, not believing that.

  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...

    Their hasn't been a ceasefire to this date that Israel respected, at the very least they always bomb a few tunnels which Hamas uses to smuggle goods in.

    And what they smuggle isn't even relevant because you made a deal that you won't attack them.

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

    The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.
    The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

    What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

    And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    "Israel says it is putting plans for a ground operation "on hold" to give talks on a ceasefire with Hamas militants in Gaza a chance."
    It is political "suicide" to launch a large ground operation so close to the election, Hamas know it Israel know it, but it sound better if you can spin it so it look like Israel show restraint.

    Sill convinced that Netanyahu did all this escalation to make him "look good" on the domestic plane, because the upcoming election.

  16. #1196
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    A Black Land of Sorcery and Nameless Horror
    Posts
    1,145
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.
    more non truths Liara what started this was the IDF killing a 13 year old palestinian boy

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.
    What inquiry? source?
    And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
    We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.

  18. #1198
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    2,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Israel is an apartheid state, it is basically South Africa v2.0, and like South Africa it will only change when the United States finally says that it has to change.
    People need to stop repeating this myth. Hate Israel all you want, but hate them for the right reasons. Gaza and the West Bank are both independent, non-state political entities, governed by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority, respectively. The people there are subject to the laws of their respective governments and therefore not under any sort of Apartheid.

    Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  19. #1199
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Quel'Thalas
    Posts
    7,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

    What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

    And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
    Did you forget Liara, Israel started it when they "stole" the land. Something which, i'll note, nobody has explained actually how you do that.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    What inquiry? source?


    We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.
    Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
    Specifically,
    The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    more non truths Liara what started this was the IDF killing a 13 year old palestinian boy
    Right, I forgot the national passtime here is shooting random boys for no reason whatsoever.
    Last edited by Liara; 2012-11-20 at 06:50 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •