Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?
During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shields, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.
In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.
Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition." The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.
The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.
On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation. Local eyewitnesses later confirmed that Hamas militants had fired at Israeli troops from adjacent a UN school for girls where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge. Forty-three Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire. Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, an Israeli NGO with close ties to the IDF, accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings—including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives’ houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones". The IDF and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a video accusing Hamas in a systematic use of civilians as human shield, including several photoes of Hamas militants using children as human shield and two videoes from the Gaza War (2008-2009) showing Hamas militants grabbing children, allegdly using them as a human shield. The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.
Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha'aretz):
"The Intifada is the Palestinian's people's war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime."
Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. -George Orwell
Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?
You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.
The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?
“A fool is not a person who does not know something. Rather, a fool is a person who is given information but who chooses to ignore what he is given based on how he wants things to be, rather than how things are."
General Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...
'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
Or a yawing hole in a battered head
And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
And there they lay I damn me eyes
All lookouts clapped on Paradise
All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!
It really is an ugly and sad situation dating all the way back to WWII. If the holocaust had not happened then Israel probably would not have happened. Its just an ongoing circle of hate with no end in sight. All it takes is one wacko or zealot on either side to start things all over again whenever they finally start making headway. Personally I don't see any sort of permanent peace ever being possible unless an unbiased third party comes in and imposes reconciliation and integration.
Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.
What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.
And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
Sill convinced that Netanyahu did all this escalation to make him "look good" on the domestic plane, because the upcoming election.
We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.
When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!
Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:44 PM ----------
Last edited by Liara; 2012-11-20 at 06:50 PM.
As to the American Revolution, one of the major differences is that the colonies actually had a chance of winning because Britain wasn't willing to commit enough of their forces to subdue their fellow Englishmen. Also I admit that my history classes were a bit biased, but I'm fairly sure that the colonies never sent saboteurs into Britain with the purpose of blowing up Parliament, or targets with even less strategic value. But yeah, other than that I guess Hamas and the 13 colonies operated exactly along the same lines.
Israeli citizens of arabic origin are not oppressed and enjoy the rights and privilege as appropriate to a citizen of a democratic state, BUT the problem is all the people who is denied citizenship (no law of return for them) and the government of Israel is using all the trick in the book to force them into a limbo.
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:55 PM ----------
Last edited by a77; 2012-11-20 at 06:57 PM.