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  1. #1181
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    And what exactly was the wikipedia article you were quoting? I'm not questioning the use of wikipedia, since you also included the source numbers, but without putting out the link to the actual article its not possible to follow up on what you said.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Very nice false equivalency. Try to learn more about the entire situation there, and why exactly it is that Hamas supporters are among the populace themselves. Here's a hint: a good part of the people do not hate Hamas.
    Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I've already responded to this, and why Israel continuing to put pressure on the people to try to make them give up Hamas will not work. Scroll up.
    Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Don't do selective reading. I never once said that the Palestinians were justified in their attacks. I did, however, say that Israel overall has a greater hand in crimes against humanity and because it is in a position of power has a greater responsibility in giving up some to resolve the conflict. This isn't the 60's. If Israel shows some signs of weakness, the rest of the Middle East isn't going to descend on them intent on destruction.
    If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.

    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    but theyre nice people really. posting this just means your anti semitic /sarcasm
    Ooh, ooh, can I quote from the same article too?

    During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shields, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.[10]
    In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.[11]
    Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."[12] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.[13]
    The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.[14]
    On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation.[15] Local eyewitnesses later confirmed that Hamas militants had fired at Israeli troops from adjacent a UN school for girls where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge.[16][17] Forty-three Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire.[18] Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.[19]
    The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, an Israeli NGO with close ties to the IDF,[20] accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings—including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives’ houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones".[21][22] The IDF and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a video accusing Hamas in a systematic use of civilians as human shield, including several photoes of Hamas militants using children as human shield and two videoes from the Gaza War (2008-2009) showing Hamas militants grabbing children, allegdly using them as a human shield.[23] The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.[24]

  4. #1184
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace
    no thats the version of the truth you "victimised" israelis like to portray. the truth is that you had peace until the IDF killed a 13 year old palestinian boy on Nov 8th. every time there has been a deal the israelis have broken it. you lie and cheat and play the victim card. you wall people up in a ghetto, brutalise them and then provoke a reaction because you dont want peace. you want their land and now you want the massive gas and oil reserves recently discovered off the gaza coast. is it coincidence this all started up just weeks before the UN was due to vote on palestinian state hood? ofc it wasnt.

    Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha'aretz):

    "The Intifada is the Palestinian's people's war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime."

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    Okay?

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
    Israel is an apartheid state, it is basically South Africa v2.0, and like South Africa it will only change when the United States finally says that it has to change.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
    The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. -George Orwell

  6. #1186
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
    Its not only different on a few details here and there, its different in just about every way. For example, when the women and children tried to flee, they were shot down, not by the police, but by Koresh and his main supporters. What's more, the fire was either caused by the accidental ignition of tear gas or purposefully set by those aside, ie the fire was not the main line of attack. Stop trying to establish strawmen.

    Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?
    Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?


    If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.
    You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
    The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?
    The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.
    “A fool is not a person who does not know something. Rather, a fool is a person who is given information but who chooses to ignore what he is given based on how he wants things to be, rather than how things are."

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  7. #1187
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Yeah, I figured you'd pull something like that. Call me when you raid weapon caches and prevent easily traded and bought weapons from being circulated.
    What do you think that I am lying, I merely stated my experience...

  8. #1188
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
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  9. #1189
    Immortal SirRobin's Avatar
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    It really is an ugly and sad situation dating all the way back to WWII. If the holocaust had not happened then Israel probably would not have happened. Its just an ongoing circle of hate with no end in sight. All it takes is one wacko or zealot on either side to start things all over again whenever they finally start making headway. Personally I don't see any sort of permanent peace ever being possible unless an unbiased third party comes in and imposes reconciliation and integration.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    What do you think that I am lying, I merely stated my experience...
    That you haven't heard gunshots in Syria for years? Yeah, not believing that.

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...

    Their hasn't been a ceasefire to this date that Israel respected, at the very least they always bomb a few tunnels which Hamas uses to smuggle goods in.

    And what they smuggle isn't even relevant because you made a deal that you won't attack them.

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

    The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.
    The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

    What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

    And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?

  13. #1193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    "Israel says it is putting plans for a ground operation "on hold" to give talks on a ceasefire with Hamas militants in Gaza a chance."
    It is political "suicide" to launch a large ground operation so close to the election, Hamas know it Israel know it, but it sound better if you can spin it so it look like Israel show restraint.

    Sill convinced that Netanyahu did all this escalation to make him "look good" on the domestic plane, because the upcoming election.

  14. #1194
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.
    more non truths Liara what started this was the IDF killing a 13 year old palestinian boy

  15. #1195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.
    What inquiry? source?
    And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
    We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.

  16. #1196
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Israel is an apartheid state, it is basically South Africa v2.0, and like South Africa it will only change when the United States finally says that it has to change.
    People need to stop repeating this myth. Hate Israel all you want, but hate them for the right reasons. Gaza and the West Bank are both independent, non-state political entities, governed by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority, respectively. The people there are subject to the laws of their respective governments and therefore not under any sort of Apartheid.

    Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  17. #1197
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

    What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

    And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
    Did you forget Liara, Israel started it when they "stole" the land. Something which, i'll note, nobody has explained actually how you do that.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    What inquiry? source?


    We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.
    Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
    Specifically,
    The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    more non truths Liara what started this was the IDF killing a 13 year old palestinian boy
    Right, I forgot the national passtime here is shooting random boys for no reason whatsoever.
    Last edited by Liara; 2012-11-20 at 06:50 PM.

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Its not only different on a few details here and there, its different in just about every way. For example, when the women and children tried to flee, they were shot down, not by the police, but by Koresh and his main supporters. What's more, the fire was either caused by the accidental ignition of tear gas or purposefully set by those aside, ie the fire was not the main line of attack. Stop trying to establish strawmen.
    Not going to argue the details with you, if you've looked into the situation at all you'd know that what happened inside the compound is still not at all clear. The bottom line is that the ATF/FBI task force sent tanks with tear gas and automatic weapons support into a civilian area to force the issue instead of slowly and peacefully resolving the situation - which is what President Clinton initially wanted to do until the Attorney General convinced him otherwise. You asked if people would freak out if the US killed 50 people to take out one man. Sorry if you don't like the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?
    I laughed when I read this. Hamas doesn't run on the "liberty or death" concept. Hamas is a terrorist organization who for years killed Israeli civilians indiscriminately and gained legitimacy when the Palestinians decided that they were the best way to fight Israel. How's that working out for them, by the way?

    As to the American Revolution, one of the major differences is that the colonies actually had a chance of winning because Britain wasn't willing to commit enough of their forces to subdue their fellow Englishmen. Also I admit that my history classes were a bit biased, but I'm fairly sure that the colonies never sent saboteurs into Britain with the purpose of blowing up Parliament, or targets with even less strategic value. But yeah, other than that I guess Hamas and the 13 colonies operated exactly along the same lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?
    Oh, is that why a multinational coalition was formed to stop Russia from absolutely kicking the shit out of Chechnya? Or when China crushed Tibet? I must have missed all of that. Unless it's in Europe's backyard(Serbia) or a complete wreck of a nation(Rwanda), or someone decides to royally piss off the US(Iraq, Afghanistan), the UN usually doesn't get involved beyond a slap on the wrist and a sternly worded letter(Iraq again). By all means provide actual examples if you disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.
    You're right, you didn't specifically say that Israel deserves all the blame for the situation. You just have heavily implied it in every single post you've made in this thread, with no real critique of Hamas to balance it out. My bad for saying clearly what you were saying obliquely, I guess?

  20. #1200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    People need to stop repeating this myth. Hate Israel all you want, but hate them for the right reasons. Gaza and the West Bank are both independent, non-state political entities, governed by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority, respectively. The people there are subject to the laws of their respective governments and therefore not under any sort of Apartheid.

    Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.
    South Africa Apartheid did have the same type of concept, they did call it "Homlands" it was independent, non-state political entities, governed by blacks, but was constant overruled and controlled by the central (white) government.

    Israeli citizens of arabic origin are not oppressed and enjoy the rights and privilege as appropriate to a citizen of a democratic state, BUT the problem is all the people who is denied citizenship (no law of return for them) and the government of Israel is using all the trick in the book to force them into a limbo.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
    Specifically,
    No weapons that can I understand, but all the rest of the goods what is blockade? did UN clear that to?
    Last edited by a77; 2012-11-20 at 06:57 PM.

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