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  1. #1501
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by someotherguy View Post
    Hamas consistently targets civilians.
    can anyone run some numbers on that one? how many civilians have Hamas killed in the last 10 years? how many civilians have the IDF and settlers killed? Israel keeps taking the morale high ground re civillians but I dont think it stands up to any real scrutiny. lets ask the family of the little girl they shot and murdered or the family of the man at the fence today even. israel complains the palestinians hate them, is it any wonder? if you dont want hate try showing some restraint instead of righteous swagger.

  2. #1502
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    can anyone run some numbers on that one? how many civilians have Hamas killed in the last 10 years? how many civilians have the IDF and settlers killed? Israel keeps taking the morale high ground re civillians but I dont think it stands up to any real scrutiny. lets ask the family of the little girl they shot and murdered or the family of the man at the fence today even. israel complains the palestinians hate them, is it any wonder? if you dont want hate try showing some restraint instead of righteous swagger.
    Hamas killed all those children by firing from residential areas.

  3. #1503
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by someotherguy View Post
    Hamas killed all those children by firing from residential areas.
    Wait up now...

    Let's get this in perspective my friend.
    Hamas fires rockets from residential areas. That we won't argue for now.
    Hamas is a terror organization. That we won't argue for now.
    Firing those rockets into Israel is a Terror act. That we won't argue for now.

    So, you saying that the solution of fighting a terror attack is to blindfolded firing back into the residential area is the way to fight terror?
    You must be out of your mind then.
    The way you fight terror is by eliminating it with pin point accuracy and intelligence.
    The best way to eliminate terror cells is from within. Infiltration to the point where you can take out the danger without any or extremely little civilian casualties.
    How do you think the USA takes out one Al Qaeda leader or key member after another, without causing any noticeable casualties.
    Al Qaedas entire elite leadership is completely destroyed/eliminated. It's not an accident when in all of a sudden a US drone hits a jeep somewhere on some remote road. It's intelligence that finds out where and when to strike with deadly accuracy and without harming the population.
    Firing into a dense populated area is the sure path to injuring or even killing innocent people.
    As to the Hamas being a terror organization, that's another topic. I don't really know to what extent that is the case.
    Examples in the recent past shown, that such label is given out easily and not seldom just too fast.
    Northern Ireland says hi! Or to even remain in the very region..... the PLO says hi.. The PLO was labeled a Terror Organization. Still it's leader Arafat managed to get a Peace Nobel Price. A minority fighting a majority on their own grounds and terms of violence in return, does not make them terrorists.

    You can argue, and I agree with it, that throwing rockets into Israel is an act of terror, since it's aimed into residential areas. But for the same reeasons I agree with you I also evaluate the other side, and the same counts for Israel. Firing rockets into residential areas is an act of terror.

    You have proper defense to keep the rockets from causing harm (Iron Dome). You have intelligence (Mossat) which is capable to find out more humane ways to weaken or disable the terror acts against you.
    And I say the same to the Israeli, that also applies to the Americans.
    The reason why others hate you, or dislike you is not because of the others just want to hate you (we can disregard extremists here). It's because of your own actions. You lay in the bed you make for yourself. Start treating the people with respect and show humanity, and you will see how fast there will be peace.
    The numbers of haters will diminish. The number of supporters will increase. Refrain from violence and people start to like you.
    The population has no reason to support and harbor terror cells, if they know that the terror cells are rather extremists who have no reason whatsoever and their claims are wrong. Their support will crumble.

    We are dealing with the stupid question what was there first. The chicken or the egg..
    Who shot first, who is more evil. Stop defending violence, period.

    Hamas did not kill their own children. Israelis did.
    Blaming it on Hamas is bullshit. Blame them for what ever happens to Israelis in Israel. And blame Israel for what happens in Gaza.
    Blame both that their people cannot live in peace and rather in fear for their lives.

  4. #1504
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    The way you fight terror is by eliminating it with pin point accuracy and intelligence.
    Is it really ? Since Afghanistan and Chechnya pretty much proved that it isn't the way it is done. Maybe it is the way people from ponyville wish it to be but it simply isn't the case as this turning the other cheek thing just doesn't work in reality and are you serious about drone strikes not taking civilian casualties ?
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-11-23 at 05:51 PM.

  5. #1505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Okay. That's a rather retarded comparison..
    And why?
    Just a plain evaluation of the weaponry used.
    Hamas throws (almost literally spoken) rockets at Israel of which most are home made from salvaged scrap. Those kind of rockets can be made in ones backyard shop.
    It somewhat reminds me of the Cata quest [Everything but the Kitchen Sink] where you shoot with scrap pieces, even roasted chicken at the attacking helicopters.
    Some 1500 rockets were fired into Israel over those days now, and the damage they've caused is minimal compared to their numbers. Their effectiveness is that of a hand grenade with wings. Part of the reason why Israels Iron dome defense was actually capable to intercept most of them. They are slow, floating in the air like a lame duck, not like a strong powerful missile.
    Whereas Israel has serious missiles which cause a lot more devastating destruction.

    Make no mistake here.... Don't associate those Hamas rockets with something like Patriot Missiles and the like.

    I am not saying that I agree with them being shot into Israel at all. Neither do I say it's fine Israel fires theirs into Gaza.
    I just want to point out that people also need to look at what weapons are in use there.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 09:30 AM ----------

    Not every other, Every!
    And every tyrannical nation in history has been brought down, either by allies from outside, who finally had enough. or from within, because one can only tyrannize for so long, until the pure survival instincts break through in an entire society and they stand up against the tyrants.
    In many cases it was a combination of the two.
    But every single tyranny in the past, came to an end.
    So no.. it would not be smart for Israel to become a tyrant or villain. It would be the clear path to their elimination.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 09:41 AM ----------

    I think so too. And I believe that an obvious removal/ethnic cleansing would bring Russia out on the table and they'd interfere with Military Power. And I am pretty sure that the USA would not risk a war with Russia in Middle East over Israel. Especially not if the obvious reason would be to save the lives of people who are facing another holocaust. That wouldn't happen.
    So, Israel cannot bank all their actions on the insurance policy of having the USA as the mighty ally that has their back. Let alone that I do not believe that such actions would be backed by the USA. That would betray everything the USA tries to stand for.
    The middle east crisis contributes to our World economy crisis at large. We all are interested to stabilize the region. For all of us the most benefit would come from total peace down there. It has to come to an end.


    Interesting read, how not everything is just black and white...
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...rticle5583671/
    If you keep poking a bear with a stick, don't get all whiny when it turns around and uses what it has at its disposal.

    I cant believe someone is justifying Hamas actions by saying the effect is negligible.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 05:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Wait up now...

    Let's get this in perspective my friend.
    Hamas fires rockets from residential areas. That we won't argue for now.
    Hamas is a terror organization. That we won't argue for now.
    Firing those rockets into Israel is a Terror act. That we won't argue for now.

    So, you saying that the solution of fighting a terror attack is to blindfolded firing back into the residential area is the way to fight terror?
    You must be out of your mind then.
    The way you fight terror is by eliminating it with pin point accuracy and intelligence.
    The best way to eliminate terror cells is from within. Infiltration to the point where you can take out the danger without any or extremely little civilian casualties.
    How do you think the USA takes out one Al Qaeda leader or key member after another, without causing any noticeable casualties.
    Al Qaedas entire elite leadership is completely destroyed/eliminated. It's not an accident when in all of a sudden a US drone hits a jeep somewhere on some remote road. It's intelligence that finds out where and when to strike with deadly accuracy and without harming the population.
    Firing into a dense populated area is the sure path to injuring or even killing innocent people.
    As to the Hamas being a terror organization, that's another topic. I don't really know to what extent that is the case.
    Examples in the recent past shown, that such label is given out easily and not seldom just too fast.
    Northern Ireland says hi! Or to even remain in the very region..... the PLO says hi.. The PLO was labeled a Terror Organization. Still it's leader Arafat managed to get a Peace Nobel Price. A minority fighting a majority on their own grounds and terms of violence in return, does not make them terrorists.

    You can argue, and I agree with it, that throwing rockets into Israel is an act of terror, since it's aimed into residential areas. But for the same reeasons I agree with you I also evaluate the other side, and the same counts for Israel. Firing rockets into residential areas is an act of terror.

    You have proper defense to keep the rockets from causing harm (Iron Dome). You have intelligence (Mossat) which is capable to find out more humane ways to weaken or disable the terror acts against you.
    And I say the same to the Israeli, that also applies to the Americans.
    The reason why others hate you, or dislike you is not because of the others just want to hate you (we can disregard extremists here). It's because of your own actions. You lay in the bed you make for yourself. Start treating the people with respect and show humanity, and you will see how fast there will be peace.
    The numbers of haters will diminish. The number of supporters will increase. Refrain from violence and people start to like you.
    The population has no reason to support and harbor terror cells, if they know that the terror cells are rather extremists who have no reason whatsoever and their claims are wrong. Their support will crumble.

    We are dealing with the stupid question what was there first. The chicken or the egg..
    Who shot first, who is more evil. Stop defending violence, period.

    Hamas did not kill their own children. Israelis did.
    Blaming it on Hamas is bullshit. Blame them for what ever happens to Israelis in Israel. And blame Israel for what happens in Gaza.
    Blame both that their people cannot live in peace and rather in fear for their lives.
    If you ask me, that's what they were doing, the amount they shot in there and the small amount of deaths, I would say they did well.

    Are you also trying to claim that the IRA were not terrorists?
    Last edited by mmoc5e3a361b6a; 2012-11-23 at 05:58 PM.

  6. #1506
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Wait up now...

    Let's get this in perspective my friend.
    Hamas fires rockets from residential areas. That we won't argue for now.
    Hamas is a terror organization. That we won't argue for now.
    Firing those rockets into Israel is a Terror act. That we won't argue for now.

    So, you saying that the solution of fighting a terror attack is to blindfolded firing back into the residential area is the way to fight terror?
    You must be out of your mind then.
    The way you fight terror is by eliminating it with pin point accuracy and intelligence.
    The best way to eliminate terror cells is from within. Infiltration to the point where you can take out the danger without any or extremely little civilian casualties.
    How do you think the USA takes out one Al Qaeda leader or key member after another, without causing any noticeable casualties.
    Al Qaedas entire elite leadership is completely destroyed/eliminated. It's not an accident when in all of a sudden a US drone hits a jeep somewhere on some remote road. It's intelligence that finds out where and when to strike with deadly accuracy and without harming the population.
    Firing into a dense populated area is the sure path to injuring or even killing innocent people.
    As to the Hamas being a terror organization, that's another topic. I don't really know to what extent that is the case.
    Examples in the recent past shown, that such label is given out easily and not seldom just too fast.
    Northern Ireland says hi! Or to even remain in the very region..... the PLO says hi.. The PLO was labeled a Terror Organization. Still it's leader Arafat managed to get a Peace Nobel Price. A minority fighting a majority on their own grounds and terms of violence in return, does not make them terrorists.

    You can argue, and I agree with it, that throwing rockets into Israel is an act of terror, since it's aimed into residential areas. But for the same reeasons I agree with you I also evaluate the other side, and the same counts for Israel. Firing rockets into residential areas is an act of terror.

    You have proper defense to keep the rockets from causing harm (Iron Dome). You have intelligence (Mossat) which is capable to find out more humane ways to weaken or disable the terror acts against you.
    And I say the same to the Israeli, that also applies to the Americans.
    The reason why others hate you, or dislike you is not because of the others just want to hate you (we can disregard extremists here). It's because of your own actions. You lay in the bed you make for yourself. Start treating the people with respect and show humanity, and you will see how fast there will be peace.
    The numbers of haters will diminish. The number of supporters will increase. Refrain from violence and people start to like you.
    The population has no reason to support and harbor terror cells, if they know that the terror cells are rather extremists who have no reason whatsoever and their claims are wrong. Their support will crumble.

    We are dealing with the stupid question what was there first. The chicken or the egg..
    Who shot first, who is more evil. Stop defending violence, period.

    Hamas did not kill their own children. Israelis did.
    Blaming it on Hamas is bullshit. Blame them for what ever happens to Israelis in Israel. And blame Israel for what happens in Gaza.
    Blame both that their people cannot live in peace and rather in fear for their lives.
    And then you ask us to send soldiers in and infiltrate them? Are you out of your freaking mind, or simply oblivious to any sort of military strategy?
    Did you see what they did to those 6 guys they "suspected" of being Israeli helpers? Lynching isn't high in my list of priorities.
    And since they ARE firing from residential areas, using innocent civilians as human shields, it means they want to either A) really hide behind civilians, in hope they wont be attacked, or B) Use the deaths of said civilians to move their agenda forwards.

    If they are attacking civilians, why does no one condemn them? If they are attacking their own civilians, using them as shields and targets, why does no one condemn them? But the moment we fire back, the whole freaking world is on our asses. The only explanation for that is outside the ability of said people to simply be honest and say "Well, we just don't like'em jews, thats all"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 08:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    can anyone run some numbers on that one? how many civilians have Hamas killed in the last 10 years? how many civilians have the IDF and settlers killed? Israel keeps taking the morale high ground re civillians but I dont think it stands up to any real scrutiny. lets ask the family of the little girl they shot and murdered or the family of the man at the fence today even. israel complains the palestinians hate them, is it any wonder? if you dont want hate try showing some restraint instead of righteous swagger.
    Are you even aware of the difference between Hamas' intentions of actually KILLING civilians rather than soldiers, and, on the other hand, the IDF's intention of killing terrorists, which simply happen to be hiding behind civilians?

    We just simply love our own people more.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 08:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Oh yes, how charitable of them. That makes it all ok then!
    No, but is simply proves that Israel could've been rid of the Palestinians as early as 40 years ago, and haven't.

    I wonder how it would've looked if the roles were switched... How long would it take Hamas to turn off the light switch?

  7. #1507
    I think that people forget that America was founded by terrorist action. But because it was succesful, we call it a revolution. The difference between terrorism and revolution, is that a revolution is succesful terrorism.

  8. #1508
    Quote Originally Posted by Hif View Post
    The difference is my entire post is based on fact. Please show me anywhere in the UN Charter, the laws that govern the GA or UNSC that they can declare independence. If it was possible Palestine would have been declared independent in the UNGA 40 years ago. It hasn't because the UN has no legal authority to do so.

    More blatant propaganda from Israeli supporters and when faced with facts they put their heads in the sand.
    The pot calling the kettle.
    All the "facts" (If that is what we're calling half-truths nowadays) you posted had nothing to do with the point at hand. UN resolution 181 comes to mind. It was voted and done. And as it happens, a side didn't like the result, so it went batshit crazy on the winning side.

    Besides that, the state of Israel proclaimed its independence, and was attacked from all directions, which was funny, since the only reason they were attacked was for being Jewish. And yet everyone says this conflict has nothing to do with religion. Both sides are unwilling to part with Jerusalem, a holy city... And still people deny this having anything to do with religion. Funny, how political correctness fails to hide racism.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 08:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Slammin Shaman View Post
    I think that people forget that America was founded by terrorist action. But because it was succesful, we call it a revolution. The difference between terrorism and revolution, is that a revolution is succesful terrorism.
    So many countries out there doing atrocities on their people and neighboring countries, but is only when a Jew throws a stone that the whole world goes tits over head.

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post

    So many countries out there doing atrocities on their people and neighboring countries, but is only when a Jew throws a stone that the whole world goes tits over head.
    You're trying to make it sound like anyone that talks negatively of Israel is anti-Semitic. If that is what your argument boils down to, then I think we're done here.

  10. #1510
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    So many countries out there doing atrocities on their people and neighboring countries, but is only when a Jew throws a stone that the whole world goes tits over head.
    Which is why the Security Council does things like condemnations (which even if they're the equivalent of saying"bad country, bad!" have a definite effect on economic relations), and even direct military interventions. Just two days ago there was a condemnation of rebels in the Congo, the first step towards active international intervention. While Israel's actions go officially unrecognized due to US veto power. I don't know where you get this inherently foolish notion that everyone blames them for being Jewish, when the exact opposite seems to be true.

  11. #1511
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    can anyone run some numbers on that one? how many civilians have Hamas killed in the last 10 years? how many civilians have the IDF and settlers killed? Israel keeps taking the morale high ground re civillians but I dont think it stands up to any real scrutiny. lets ask the family of the little girl they shot and murdered or the family of the man at the fence today even. israel complains the palestinians hate them, is it any wonder? if you dont want hate try showing some restraint instead of righteous swagger.
    no numbers, no facts just israeli myth and propoganda. predictable I guess given thats their tenuous claim on the land they stole in the first place, myths and propoganda.

  12. #1512
    Quote Originally Posted by Slammin Shaman View Post
    I think that people forget that America was founded by terrorist action. But because it was succesful, we call it a revolution. The difference between terrorism and revolution, is that a revolution is succesful terrorism.
    Well, it was certainly founded on asymmetrical warfare. I'm not aware of any colonials targeting British civilians in a vain attempt to get King George to capitulate, though. Arguably, you could say that the primary act of terror which resulted in the founding of America was, in fact, committed by British soldiers against colonials. Revolutionaries didn't have much political traction until after the Boston massacre.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  13. #1513
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly. It's amazing how much of reality people who attack Israel ignore, instead siding with propaganda and terrorists
    The only difference between "Terrorist" and "Freedom Fighter" these days boils down to religion. Jewish? Freedom Fighter. Muslim? Terrorist. It's complete bullshit, and speaking of propaganda, the Jews LOVE to distribute it. So how is your propaganda any more righteous than another groups? Because of your personal beliefs? That makes you part of the problem, rather than the solution.
    Last edited by Priestiality; 2012-11-23 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Spelling

  14. #1514
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    Besides that, the state of Israel proclaimed its independence, and was attacked from all directions, which was funny, since the only reason they were attacked was for being Jewish. And yet everyone says this conflict has nothing to do with religion. Both sides are unwilling to part with Jerusalem, a holy city... And still people deny this having anything to do with religion. Funny, how political correctness fails to hide racism.
    Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs, who didn't agree to anything of the sort. And it might have something to do with the then-security council forces applying "might makes right" to something as serious as, well, the founding of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    So many countries out there doing atrocities on their people and neighboring countries, but is only when a Jew throws a stone that the whole world goes tits over head.
    Yeah, your "everyone hates the Jews" argument is surely going to work if you repeat it often enough.

    The whole world "goes tits over head" when the US and Israel do specific things that Western nations aren't supposed to do. And, you know, the world goes mad over it because it's not expected from such nations.

  15. #1515
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    ...It's complete bullshit, and speaking of propaganda, the Jews LOVE to distribute it. ...
    Can you tell me more about the Jews?
    Feel free to describe any other groups as well, I'd like to learn.

  16. #1516
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    The only difference between "Terrorist" and "Freedom Fighter" these days boils down to religion. Jewish? Freedom Fighter. Muslim? Terrorist. It's complete bullshit, and speaking of propaganda, the Jews LOVE to distribute it. So how is your propaganda any more righteous than another groups? Because of your personal beliefs? That makes you part of the problem, rather than the solution.
    Coming from someone who feels that the blame rests on Israel, as well as the responsibility for fixing the situation... Hamas' power rests entirely on propaganda and influencing the mentality of the people. While it is true that Israelis, like any other sane nation, tend to be self interested in their perception of events, in terms of spreading propaganda Hamas is far more culpable.

    Also, lets get one thing straight. There's a difference between the Israeli government and the Jews as a culture/nation/people. Saying its because of "the Jews" is inherently racist.

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs, who didn't agree to anything of the sort. And it might have something to do with the then-security council forces applying "might makes right" to something as serious as, well, the founding of Israel.
    While I can't be sure for obvious reasons, I'm fairly certain that they couldn't give two shits about the Arabs who were living in the area, as evident from their treatment of Palestinians since then (Black September etc.), and the fact that no matter how vehement those countries are in their defense of Palestinians, not a single one will even consider giving them a citizenship. Having Israel take the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in the Six Day War was probably one of the greatest reliefs Egypt and Jordan (respectively) have ever experienced (as evident from their utter refusal of taking those territories back when Israel offered them).

  18. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by Slammin Shaman View Post
    You're trying to make it sound like anyone that talks negatively of Israel is anti-Semitic. If that is what your argument boils down to, then I think we're done here.
    I'm trying to simply state that political correctness doesn't always hide racism, as hard the user tries.
    Not anyone who talks negatively of Israel is anti-semitic, no. But those who spread the propaganda to plant those seeds of hatred into the weaker minds of those who are easily convinced, certainly are.

    Like it or not, every time you condemn an Israeli action against Hamas, you're supporting terrorism. You know who else condemns it? Al Qaeda. That is how you end up having dinner with murderers, and being even worse than those you judge. (Not you specifically, Slammin, but people in general)

  19. #1519
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    I'm trying to simply state that political correctness doesn't always hide racism, as hard the user tries.
    Not anyone who talks negatively of Israel is anti-semitic, no. But those who spread the propaganda to plant those seeds of hatred into the weaker minds of those who are easily convinced, certainly are.

    Like it or not, every time you condemn an Israeli action against Hamas, you're supporting terrorism. You know who else condemns it? Al Qaeda. That is how you end up having dinner with murderers, and being even worse than those you judge. (Not you specifically, Slammin, but people in general)
    More Palestinians have been killed by Israeli-Western missiles, bullets, tanks, and explosions than by the Iran-smuggled 35 year old pathetic weapons cache of the Palestinians. There is no contest, Palestine, Iran, Lebanon, and Syria could be single-handedly wiped off the map by Israel before we could even know.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  20. #1520
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    I'm trying to simply state that political correctness doesn't always hide racism, as hard the user tries.
    Not anyone who talks negatively of Israel is anti-semitic, no. But those who spread the propaganda to plant those seeds of hatred into the weaker minds of those who are easily convinced, certainly are.

    Like it or not, every time you condemn an Israeli action against Hamas, you're supporting terrorism. You know who else condemns it? Al Qaeda. That is how you end up having dinner with murderers, and being even worse than those you judge. (Not you specifically, Slammin, but people in general)
    so disagree with you, dare to criticise Israel killing children, shooting little girls and we are supporting Al Qaeda? really you should be ashamed.

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