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  1. #1521
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    Besides that, the state of Israel proclaimed its independence, and was attacked from all directions, which was funny, since the only reason they were attacked was for being Jewish. And yet everyone says this conflict has nothing to do with religion. Both sides are unwilling to part with Jerusalem, a holy city... And still people deny this having anything to do with religion. Funny, how political correctness fails to hide racism.
    Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs, who didn't agree to anything of the sort. And it might have something to do with the then-security council forces applying "might makes right" to something as serious as, well, the founding of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    So many countries out there doing atrocities on their people and neighboring countries, but is only when a Jew throws a stone that the whole world goes tits over head.
    Yeah, your "everyone hates the Jews" argument is surely going to work if you repeat it often enough.

    The whole world "goes tits over head" when the US and Israel do specific things that Western nations aren't supposed to do. And, you know, the world goes mad over it because it's not expected from such nations.

  2. #1522
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    ...It's complete bullshit, and speaking of propaganda, the Jews LOVE to distribute it. ...
    Can you tell me more about the Jews?
    Feel free to describe any other groups as well, I'd like to learn.

  3. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    The only difference between "Terrorist" and "Freedom Fighter" these days boils down to religion. Jewish? Freedom Fighter. Muslim? Terrorist. It's complete bullshit, and speaking of propaganda, the Jews LOVE to distribute it. So how is your propaganda any more righteous than another groups? Because of your personal beliefs? That makes you part of the problem, rather than the solution.
    Coming from someone who feels that the blame rests on Israel, as well as the responsibility for fixing the situation... Hamas' power rests entirely on propaganda and influencing the mentality of the people. While it is true that Israelis, like any other sane nation, tend to be self interested in their perception of events, in terms of spreading propaganda Hamas is far more culpable.

    Also, lets get one thing straight. There's a difference between the Israeli government and the Jews as a culture/nation/people. Saying its because of "the Jews" is inherently racist.

  4. #1524
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs, who didn't agree to anything of the sort. And it might have something to do with the then-security council forces applying "might makes right" to something as serious as, well, the founding of Israel.
    While I can't be sure for obvious reasons, I'm fairly certain that they couldn't give two shits about the Arabs who were living in the area, as evident from their treatment of Palestinians since then (Black September etc.), and the fact that no matter how vehement those countries are in their defense of Palestinians, not a single one will even consider giving them a citizenship. Having Israel take the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in the Six Day War was probably one of the greatest reliefs Egypt and Jordan (respectively) have ever experienced (as evident from their utter refusal of taking those territories back when Israel offered them).

  5. #1525
    Quote Originally Posted by Slammin Shaman View Post
    You're trying to make it sound like anyone that talks negatively of Israel is anti-Semitic. If that is what your argument boils down to, then I think we're done here.
    I'm trying to simply state that political correctness doesn't always hide racism, as hard the user tries.
    Not anyone who talks negatively of Israel is anti-semitic, no. But those who spread the propaganda to plant those seeds of hatred into the weaker minds of those who are easily convinced, certainly are.

    Like it or not, every time you condemn an Israeli action against Hamas, you're supporting terrorism. You know who else condemns it? Al Qaeda. That is how you end up having dinner with murderers, and being even worse than those you judge. (Not you specifically, Slammin, but people in general)

  6. #1526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    I'm trying to simply state that political correctness doesn't always hide racism, as hard the user tries.
    Not anyone who talks negatively of Israel is anti-semitic, no. But those who spread the propaganda to plant those seeds of hatred into the weaker minds of those who are easily convinced, certainly are.

    Like it or not, every time you condemn an Israeli action against Hamas, you're supporting terrorism. You know who else condemns it? Al Qaeda. That is how you end up having dinner with murderers, and being even worse than those you judge. (Not you specifically, Slammin, but people in general)
    More Palestinians have been killed by Israeli-Western missiles, bullets, tanks, and explosions than by the Iran-smuggled 35 year old pathetic weapons cache of the Palestinians. There is no contest, Palestine, Iran, Lebanon, and Syria could be single-handedly wiped off the map by Israel before we could even know.

  7. #1527
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    I'm trying to simply state that political correctness doesn't always hide racism, as hard the user tries.
    Not anyone who talks negatively of Israel is anti-semitic, no. But those who spread the propaganda to plant those seeds of hatred into the weaker minds of those who are easily convinced, certainly are.

    Like it or not, every time you condemn an Israeli action against Hamas, you're supporting terrorism. You know who else condemns it? Al Qaeda. That is how you end up having dinner with murderers, and being even worse than those you judge. (Not you specifically, Slammin, but people in general)
    so disagree with you, dare to criticise Israel killing children, shooting little girls and we are supporting Al Qaeda? really you should be ashamed.

  8. #1528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs, who didn't agree to anything of the sort. And it might have something to do with the then-security council forces applying "might makes right" to something as serious as, well, the founding of Israel.
    And yet between '48 and '67 not a single good-faith effort was made by the Egyptian or Jordanian governments to give independance to the people living in those lands. The Arab states don't want to see an independent Palestine unless it means the removal of Israel's existence.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs, who didn't agree to anything of the sort. And it might have something to do with the then-security council forces applying "might makes right" to something as serious as, well, the founding of Israel.

    Yeah, your "everyone hates the Jews" argument is surely going to work if you repeat it often enough.

    The whole world "goes tits over head" when the US and Israel do specific things that Western nations aren't supposed to do. And, you know, the world goes mad over it because it's not expected from such nations.
    Yeah, I didn't see any outrage out there when Sudan started murdering their own people. But if an American soldier accidentally shoots a dog in Iraq, he might be summoned to the Hag. If you can't see the cynicism in it, too bad.

    Let me just fix your first statement a bit: "Or maybe Israel was attacked because the surrounding Arab countries didn't feel comfortable knowing a JEWISH state is being founded on the land of their fellow Arabs"
    Because I surely don't remember anyone attacking Jordan when it was founded on the land of fellow arabs in 1946.

    So, how can you then state it has nothing to do with Israel being Jewish?

    All in all, Palestinians, as everyone wishes to call them, weren't only located in what is today Israel, but also in Jordan, right?
    How many Palestinians has Israel "killed" since 1948? Less than Jordan killed during the events of Black September. Yet I don't see any outrage over it.
    When "arabs" kill "arabs", everything is silent and business as usual (As an Arab, I know enough about it)
    But when a "jew" kills an "arab", or an "arab" kills a "jew", tables start flippin'.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    so disagree with you, dare to criticise Israel killing children, shooting little girls and we are supporting Al Qaeda? really you should be ashamed.
    I am not ashamed. Because when people support terrorism, it could mean my life.
    I am not ashamed because I simply want to live, and I don't feel like having some brainwashed European convert blowing up on my doorstep.

  10. #1530
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    you create terrorism by your own actions. when the IDF killed that little girl how many terrorists do you think were created. when you bulldoze someones house and dispossess 5 generations of a family do you really think youre winning hearts and minds? how about taking some responsibility for your own actions instead of always blaming everyone else. Hamas exists because of Israeli actions no one elses.
    Last edited by soulcrusher; 2012-11-23 at 09:24 PM.

  11. #1531
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    you create terrorism by your own actions. when the IDF killed that little girl how many terrorists do you think were created. when you bulldoze someones house and dispossess 5 generations of a family do you really think youre winning hearts and minds? how about taking some responsibility for your own actions instead of always blaming everyone else. Hamas exists because of Israeli actions no one elses.
    and why do you think someone wants to hear the truth ? they will just throw stones on you now.

  12. #1532
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    you create terrorism by your own actions. when the IDF killed that little girl how many terrorists do you think were created. when you bulldoze someones house and dispossess 5 generations of a family do you really think youre winning hearts and minds? how about taking some responsibility for your own actions instead of always blaming everyone else. Al Qaeda and Hamas exist because of Israeli actions no one elses.
    That would be like saying water exists solely to put out fire.
    All things bring bad and good results. Sadly, coming from the average muslim family, in an arab town, I know hating Jews was popular before Israel was founded, so the propaganda skips over me. If the hate was solely towards Israel, they wouldn't attack only Jews. They wouldn't attack Jewish communities OUTSIDE of Israel. That would be comparable to the IDF randomly bombing mosques around Europe, right?

    The hypocrisy and lies need to be dropped. Let them have the balls to say the truth, and finally be honest about it. Maybe then, when the problem is actually out there, rather than hidden behind political correctness, silly catch phrases and human shields, we may work it out.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mandus View Post
    and why do you think someone wants to hear the truth ? they will just throw stones on you now.
    Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Otherwise, we wouldn't have different religions either.

  13. #1533
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    there you go again. its not our fault. poor us. how dare they hate us for killing their children, stealing their land and demolishing their homes and behaving so arrogantly. wise up, build bridges or it will end badly for you. stop believing your own propoganda.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-11-23 at 10:53 PM.

  14. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    That would be like saying water exists solely to put out fire.
    All things bring bad and good results. Sadly, coming from the average muslim family, in an arab town, I know hating Jews was popular before Israel was founded, so the propaganda skips over me. If the hate was solely towards Israel, they wouldn't attack only Jews. They wouldn't attack Jewish communities OUTSIDE of Israel. That would be comparable to the IDF randomly bombing mosques around Europe, right?

    The hypocrisy and lies need to be dropped. Let them have the balls to say the truth, and finally be honest about it. Maybe then, when the problem is actually out there, rather than hidden behind political correctness, silly catch phrases and human shields, we may work it out.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:27 PM ----------



    Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Otherwise, we wouldn't have different religions either.
    Human shields and Palestinian civilian casualties are the product of them literally being trapped inside the Gaza Strip. Too poor to move due to the economic sanctions and naval blockades, it pushes them into fundamentalist Islamic sects. Their "weapons" are decades older, as are their personal firearms. There are reports of them shooting rockets into Israel without ANY explosive device inside the missiles, because lo and behold they don't have any weapons. Israel owns the middle east. Within in hours they could annihilate millions of Palestinians, Iranians, Syrians, and Lebanese people. They have covert operations in all of those countries since the 70's.

  15. #1535
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Human shields and Palestinian civilian casualties are the product of them literally being trapped inside the Gaza Strip. Too poor to move due to the economic sanctions and naval blockades, it pushes them into fundamentalist Islamic sects. Their "weapons" are decades older, as are their personal firearms. There are reports of them shooting rockets into Israel without ANY explosive device inside the missiles, because lo and behold they don't have any weapons. Israel owns the middle east. Within in hours they could annihilate millions of Palestinians, Iranians, Syrians, and Lebanese people. They have covert operations in all of those countries since the 70's.
    The power to do something doesn't inherently mean the power will be used.
    I've said it before, Israel provides the Gaza strip with food, water, electricity and medical aid. They have provided those for a long time.
    People miss the difference between ability and intention. Just because Israel has the ability to utterly destroy the Gaza strip, it doesn't mean they have the intention. And just because Hamas (amongst others...) has the intention to destroy Israel, they don't have the ability. Yet, instead of recognizing their lack of ability to fulfill their intentions and choosing more peaceful ways, they keep slamming their heads against a wall, hoping that manipulation of weak-minded humans will be enough to provide for means to fulfill their intentions.

    If peace was the result they wanted, we would've had it ages ago.

  16. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    The power to do something doesn't inherently mean the power will be used.
    I've said it before, Israel provides the Gaza strip with food, water, electricity and medical aid. They have provided those for a long time.
    People miss the difference between ability and intention. Just because Israel has the ability to utterly destroy the Gaza strip, it doesn't mean they have the intention. And just because Hamas (amongst others...) has the intention to destroy Israel, they don't have the ability. Yet, instead of recognizing their lack of ability to fulfill their intentions and choosing more peaceful ways, they keep slamming their heads against a wall, hoping that manipulation of weak-minded humans will be enough to provide for means to fulfill their intentions.

    If peace was the result they wanted, we would've had it ages ago.
    No, Israel wants incremental settling of Palestinian lands. Yes the humanitarian efforts of the Israeli's coming to the aid of the Gaza Strip is nothing more than a PR stunk to increase fervor to fundamentalists in the west. Israel has a plan, and it has nothing to do with peace. Palestinians, on the other hand have nothing, no intent, no ability. They are trapped.

  17. #1537
    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    I've said it before, Israel provides the Gaza strip with food, water, electricity and medical aid. They have provided those for a long time.
    You're saying this as if it somehow justifies locking up and walling in a whole nation in refugee camps. It doesn't.

    People miss the difference between ability and intention. Just because Israel has the ability to utterly destroy the Gaza strip, it doesn't mean they have the intention.
    Israeli politicians, including a deputy prime minister and the minister of interior has stated that it is the precise intention of Israel to do just that, it's also completely in line with the facts on the ground.

  18. #1538
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Is it really ? Since Afghanistan and Chechnya pretty much proved that it isn't the way it is done. Maybe it is the way people from ponyville wish it to be but it simply isn't the case as this turning the other cheek thing just doesn't work in reality and are you serious about drone strikes not taking civilian casualties ?
    Did I say that? No I didn't. Without noticeable casualties. Never said without any casualties.
    There are, and there were. The numbers however vary greatly. Pro-US sources say "oh, it's basically nothing".. Anti-US sources say, "it's thousands over thousands". We will not get accurate numbers. These are top secret missions, and no one will reveal anything. The only thing we can see is, that they are actually really trying, not to blast into a location surrounded by millions of other innocent people.
    Had you paid attention to what point I really made, you'd noticed that I despise the aggressive actions from both sides.

  19. #1539
    One thing about this whole debate I'd like an answer to is wtf is up with Egypt. Egypt controls the southern border, but they don't send any aids nor do they open the border.

    I mean Israel is closing the borders because they are getting missiles fired at them and the reason they won't let anyone is the same reason the airports in your country have metal detectors.

    I'm perhaps suggesting that it might be slightly unfair to blame Israel here. Especially since Hamas have said they want to drive the jews into the sea. It's not about Palestine, it's about jews - and it looks to me like Egypt wants to keep the blood boiling. Just thought I'd clear that up.

    Oh, btw, a recent study has shown that Palestinians are some of the most overweight people in the world. I wonder, what with all the suffering, how that happened.

  20. #1540
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    If you keep poking a bear with a stick, don't get all whiny when it turns around and uses what it has at its disposal.

    I cant believe someone is justifying Hamas actions by saying the effect is negligible.
    Selective reading much, are we? Typical reaction, words taken out of context...
    I quote myself:
    Blame them for what ever happens to Israelis in Israel. And blame Israel for what happens in Gaza.
    back to you:
    Are you also trying to claim that the IRA were not terrorists?
    Northern Ireland is what comes to many Europeans minds. There's a bunch of similarities.
    1. Size... Gaza / Northern Ireland pretty equal in size.
    2. Population, almost identical
    3. Fenced in.. Should check the border conditions in Ireland at the time of the conflict.
    4. Religious fundamentalists at work.... Islam/Jew - Protestant/Catholic

    Now for the IRA...... The IRA existed a lot longer already. It's first tier was founded in 1918/1919.
    The tier we are talking about now is the third tier, Provisional Irish Republican Army, which was active from 1969 - 1998.
    They've been flat-out labeled Terrorists by their Irish counterparts. Not so by the Crown in the beginning btw.

    The IRA is a prime example of the diversity of labels, and how they can vary greatly.
    Some fundamentalists may still hold on to the label of calling them Terrorists. Some, more progressive oriented, call them Freedom Fighters.
    The IRA used guerrilla war strategies, because there was no other choice for them.

    Are they really a terror organization?
    Then how come, they've never been defeated? The violent conflict ended through a peace treaty.
    How come IRA leaders are official members of the British Government nowadays?
    Despite of that the root of the conflict isn't entirely solved just yet.

    It's kinda amazing.... When violence emerges within a country. When people rise and try to fight for their rights, then we are there putting a label on the situation.
    The people rising up getting a stamp, a brand mark. We either call them Rebels, Freedom Fighters, or Terrorists.
    Today we are very fast with handing out the label of terrorist.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 08:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Oh, btw, a recent study has shown that Palestinians are some of the most overweight people in the world. I wonder, what with all the suffering, how that happened.
    Where you got that from, about the obesity?

    A quick search turned this up for me..

    From Wiki:
    The Palestinians are listed at the 8th place in world overweight population rankings.[15] This is due to decreased physical activity and greater than necessary food consumption,[16]
    The numbers in the brackets linking to these sources:
    15 - "The Global Humanitarian Report (p.112) specifies that the Palestinia*ns receive more aid Per Capita than anyone else on Planet Earth – but have yet to build an infrastructure and rely on Israel for basics (..) and the Palestinians have earned the title of #8 in overweight population!" (September 03, 2011)"Japanese Morality". www.IsraelNationalNews.com. Arutz Sheva. Retrieved 25 October 2011.
    16 - ^ Rustam. "PMRS: 77% of Palestinians are overweight - 47% are Obese (2001)". haaretz.com. Retrieved 26 October 2011. PMRS 2001.
    Both are israeli sources, and can easily be dismissed as false and rather suspected propaganda.

    Here's a current list:
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...health-obesity

    And if you want to dig into the data any deeper..... WHO. Can't argue that credibility.
    http://www.who.int/en/

    Here's a statistic on Poverty.....
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...w-poverty-line
    Gaza strip shares World #2 with a whooping 80% below the poverty line.
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2012-11-24 at 03:51 PM.

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