Gaza rocket fire resumes

[Tierbook]

Also Darfur and similar genocides are mostly confined to the countries they're occurring in. Israel is more an issue for the whole region, since there are so many regimes in that vital part of the world that want Israel gone.

they arent all that vital honestly.... by 2017 America is forecast to be the top producer of oil

[Kalyyn]

You realize that each time (at least here in MMO-Champs) a pro-Israeli starts the threads right?

I actually had not noticed that. You might be on to something there. I'm going to do a search for "Palestine" and see what comes up, and I'll get back to you.

[N-7]

So I was correct. This isn't about Israel or Palestine. This is about America. Further evidenced by the fact that Russia does the same thing for Syria, a regime that is openly and actively committing far worse crimes than Israel has ever dreamed of. Now, I do see people getting upset over Syria, I'll give you that. But they're mad at Syria, not Russia.

So as I said, people only care about this because big bad America is involved.

As much as I hate Assad, he is much better than those terrorists that the west is supporting in Syria.

[Reeve]

they arent all that vital honestly.... by 2017 America is forecast to be the top producer of oil

So? Doesn't make the middle east any less vital. The US will still consume more than it produces, and global oil prices will still be based on the shifting of supply and demand curves around the globe. Since the Middle East is a sizable chunk of that supply curve, it will still have a huge effect on global oil markets.

[Mnevis]

So I was correct. This isn't about Israel or Palestine. This is about America. Further evidenced by the fact that Russia does the same thing for Syria, a regime that is openly and actively committing far worse crimes than Israel has ever dreamed of. Now, I do see people getting upset over Syria, I'll give you that. But they're mad at Syria, not Russia.

So as I said, people only care about this because big bad America is involved.

What are you talking about? We just had a Presidential candidate calling out Russia as our number one geopolitical foe. It's not like they're flying under the radar in continuing to support their cold war era friends. In my opinion, shooting at someone in an open civil war is a little different than shooting at someone behind a fence gathering crops. Does that mean that I don't wish that the Assad government reacted differently to the insurrection when it was just a few people looking for freedom of speech? No, but it's certainly something different now.

[soulcrusher]

"Nakba Day (Arabic: يوم *ل*كبة Yawm an-Nakba, meaning "Day of the Catastrophe") is an annual day of commemoration (15 May) of the Palestinian displacement... During the 1948
Palestine War, an estimated 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled, and hundreds of Palestinian villages were depopulated and destroyed. The vast majority of Palestinian refugees, both those outside the 1949 armistice lines at the conclusion of the war, and those internally displaced, were barred by the newly declared state of Israel". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day

[N-7]

I actually had not noticed that. You might be on to something there. I'm going to do a search for "Palestine" and see what comes up, and I'll get back to you.

Try using "Israel" if you're searching by threads titles more results...

[Kalyyn]

You realize that each time (at least here in MMO-Champs) a pro-Israeli starts the threads right?

Okay so I went through about 20 Palestine threads, and it looked to be about 50/50. But you do have a point, I'll give you that.

What are you talking about? We just had a Presidential candidate calling out Russia as our number one geopolitical foe. It's not like they're flying under the radar in continuing to support their cold war era friends. In my opinion, shooting at someone in an open civil war is a little different than shooting at someone behind a fence gathering crops. Does that mean that I don't wish that the Assad government reacted differently to the insurrection when it was just a few people looking for freedom of speech? No, but it's certainly something different now.

Romney did say that Russia was our greatest political foe. And then he was mocked for it. Don't get me wrong, our government struggles with Russia every day. I know that all too well. But everyone else, the people who don't see the conflict, they see something like Russia funding Assad and they go "Oh well that's just Russia. We expect that from them..."

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 10:54 PM ----------

Try using "Israel" if you're searching by threads titles more results...

I searched for threads that contained the word 'Palestine'. Also, you have no idea what lengths people will go to in turning ANYTHING into a debate about Palestine. I found a thread titled "Vietnam prepares for possible war with China" where Palestine was mentioned twelve times! How do you even do that?!

[Mnevis]

You're right, the drubbing he got ("LOL he thinks the Cold War is still on") was unfair, even if one accepts the mainstream conclusion that radical Islam is our number one foe. But, I don't recall him ever rationally defending his statement either.

I was just pointing out that people aren't exactly unaware of which side Russia's on. You do get it though. What Israel does, it does with the United State's approval (even if we occasionally frown at them, we've never to the best of my knowledge actually tried to stop the march of settlements), so, being mostly Americans, it adds relevance and moral complicity. We arm them, so something like a divestment campaign actually has something to do.

Anyone from Russia? Is there a similar backlash among liberals there against Russia's support for their side's oppressive friends?

[Kalyyn]

You're right, the drubbing he got ("LOL he thinks the Cold War is still on") was unfair, even if one accepts the mainstream conclusion that radical Islam is our number one foe. But, I don't recall him ever rationally defending his statement either.

I was just pointing out that people aren't exactly unaware of which side Russia's on. You do get it though. What Israel does, it does with the United State's approval (even if we occasionally frown at them, we've never to the best of my knowledge actually tried to stop the march of settlements), so, being mostly Americans, it adds relevance and moral complicity. We arm them, so something like a divestment campaign actually has something to do.

Anyone from Russia? Is there a similar backlash among liberals there against Russia's support for their side's oppressive friends?

Well yes, I understand your point there. Americans have every right to be upset over the Palestine thing because it's our government doing it. I guess it's really just all the Europeans here to which I'm saying "You need to check your priorities, because worse things are being done in this world and nobody is doing anything to stop it"

[xylophone]

As far as I know, nukes are supposed to be a deterrent. A country is much less likely to be attacked (as in open warfare, not guerrilla tactics like those used against Israel) when the attacker knows they might get nuked.



I do indeed live here (and am male). I never claimed that Israel is blameless - it's definitely not.
But I was referring to the specific remark about Israel being the inciter.

And while I know most people won't believe me (because after all, when has anyone changed their opinion about something like this?), but the IDF most certainly does not enforce any kind of apartheid. We don't even control Gaza, and most parts of the West Bank are controlled by the PNA's agencies (see areas A, B and C).
It really is a shame how terrible Israel's PR office, and how phenomenal the anti-Israel PR is.
I mean, by looking at the media you'd think every single IDF soldier is a bloodthirsty maniac who only wants to eat Palestinian children (hint, we're not).

I can't remember where I heard the term, but it was the "virtue of the oppressed."

[ati87]

Israel incited? Funny, because I recall Israel being attacked even before it was ever founded, then attacked by 5 more countries on the day after its founding.



I'd love to see your sources for this so called motto.

Their is not a single country that would accept a forming of a new country within their own borders. The US had it's civil war because the country split in 2, during WW1 and 2 every country fought back when they got invaded (talking about both sides here) and even when a country was taking over by the Germans their was still resistance groups fighting.

Again their is not a single country that would accept a forming of a new country within their own borders, it does not mater if you think that Palestinian never existed because at the very least the land itself used to be part of the Arab nations.

One of the things we as a race learned after WW2 is that it is stupid at best to take over a country after you defeated them. The formation of the UN is precisly because the leaders of that time felt that the WW2 resulted because of ww1, and if you look at germany and japan after ww2 you will see (at least the west side) that both where independent governments and that they where left mostly alone.

Don't blame Mass Effect, blame Romance Languages. An 'a' on the end of a word indicates female gender.

Back on topic, you have to look farther than '48 for the roots of this thing. But not thousands of years, only a few more decades. I have no clue what the militants in Gaza think they can accomplish. Do they think that if they get a retaliatory ass-whooping even worse than the last time, then they'll win world opinion? Might work but it involves thousands more dead neighbors and buildings in rubble and uranium in their soil. Do they have exactly zero hope of turning Gaza around from the inside?

This isn't really a argument that the Palestinians or any group of people could accept.

Just because your opponent is stronger does not mean that you have to give up, attaining freedom does not stop just because your opponent has bigger tanks (in this case Palestinians don't have that), better rockets (Palestinians rocket only hit stuff by chance at best) or even better sticks.

I'm personally wondering what the goal is of the Israel government and it's people because currently I don't see any end to this struggle since the government of Israel does not want peace. The reason why Obama and Netanyahu currently have a bad personal relationship is precisely because the Israel government does not want peace. Remember a few years ago Biden was send to Israel and the moment he arrived the government announced building of more houses in Palestinian lands, this really humiliated the American government because you can't have peace talks while at the same time aggressor is doing his thing.


This isn't about religion, even if the land itself had nothing to do with religion people will still fight as long as they believe they have been robbed.

[Mnevis]

What argument do you think I'm trying to make there?

It's pretty obvious what Israel's goal is, I'm just trying to figure out what logic leads Hamas to think that lobbing rockets out of Gaza will do anything about it.

[N-7]

Okay so I went through about 20 Palestine threads, and it looked to be about 50/50. But you do have a point, I'll give you that.

Yeah it seems that way.

I searched for threads that contained the word 'Palestine'. Also, you have no idea what lengths people will go to in turning ANYTHING into a debate about Palestine. I found a thread titled "Vietnam prepares for possible war with China" where Palestine was mentioned twelve times! How do you even do that?!

I know that too... threads tend to evolve into something completely unrelated over time.

[smelltheglove]

i honestly thought there was a good shot at having all of this settled years ago, so that israel and palestine could be building on peace. but arafat was trolling us all, and i hope hes burning in hell right now. nothing is going to be resolved with hawks sitting in israeli govt, and is there a legitimate emissary for palestine right now? (i really dont know at the moment)

[Replicate]

Just be glad the Israelis haven't taken Russian approach and wiped the whole area right the hell out! Its a pity they are still killing each other but its been happening for most of human history and its very unlikely to change because a few people bitch moan about how each side is being inhumane.

[cubby]

From the article "IDF tanks fired at terror targets in the Strip following the attack. Gaza medical sources said that four people were killed and 25 others were injured." must be fantastic tanks who only hit "terror targets"

Yes, in fact they are fantastic tanks, with superb targeting ability. The US built them. The are the M1A1 tanks, and they are, for that region, top of the line. Those tanks participate in "bullseye" contests regularly, hitting targets more than a mile away, no larger than a motorcycle.

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 02:58 AM ----------

You realize that each time (at least here in MMO-Champs) a pro-Israeli starts the threads right?

Wrong again. Topics are started by a variety of people, for a variety of reasons. Although it's pretty obvious which side you stand on.

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 02:59 AM ----------

And whatever the opposite of kudos are to Israel for inciting this sort of thing in the first place.

Wow, love how you just ignore the facts of what's being reported and go right into "whatever I want to say, despite reality" mode. I've noticed most anti-Israel people do this - fantastic stuff. Almost like Fox "News".

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 03:02 AM ----------

Have you really looked into what's going on over there? The giant walls, military checkpoints, the taking of land against Israel's own laws, with the police and military looking the other direction, the shooting of non-violent protesters? Yeah, Palestine has some crappy people doing crappy things, but at least their crappy things aren't institutionalized. The legitimate forces of Israel are enforcing apartheid and enabling land theft. That is absolutely incitation.

But it's not, whatsoever. If Palestine could stop attacking Israel civilians for more than a week or two, perhaps their government could be listed as something other than a terrorist organization, or even better, perhaps those same "government leaders" (aka terrorists) could think about something other than themselves, and negotiate for a two-state solution.

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 03:15 AM ----------

So? Doesn't make the middle east any less vital. The US will still consume more than it produces, and global oil prices will still be based on the shifting of supply and demand curves around the globe. Since the Middle East is a sizable chunk of that supply curve, it will still have a huge effect on global oil markets.

Do you have any facts on this? If we are the top producer of oil, won't that pretty much make us self sufficient?

(hey, did you hear about your state's cessation plans? )

[Deleted]

I am still baffled by how touchy people get about Israel. Multiple genocides are happening simultaneously throughout the world right now, and nobody ever makes threads about those. Not a single fuck is given for the thousands of innocents slaughtered every year in Africa or Southeast Asia. But when Israel retaliates against Palestinian rebels? Hold on to your ass, because this is an international emergency! Forget about ethnic cleansing and human trafficking, we need to stop Israel RIGHT FUCKING NOW!

Somebody explain that to me.

Your point does not make sense. We're not talking about stealing cookies. "But John stole one too!!".
Genocides, oppression and ethnic cleansing are a whole different thing.
And Israel isn't really covering it or hiding it up much. So I don't see what is it that you are saying there.
Should the world go "ah sure you can bomb schools, drop cluster bombs, fill the place with uranium and mines, and little by little exterminate the Palestinians all together, we'll close an eye, go on you little rascal!!"
And thing is... We DO close an eye as well. 300 odd UN resolutions sent and nothing has been done.

[guff]

As far as I know, nukes are supposed to be a deterrent. A country is much less likely to be attacked (as in open warfare, not guerrilla tactics like those used against Israel) when the attacker knows they might get nuked.

I love this sentiment
The nukes are just for scaring people, but if you mess with us we will nuke you!
It is so dumb...

[Deleted]

So I was correct. This isn't about Israel or Palestine. This is about America. Further evidenced by the fact that Russia does the same thing for Syria, a regime that is openly and actively committing far worse crimes than Israel has ever dreamed of. Now, I do see people getting upset over Syria, I'll give you that. But they're mad at Syria, not Russia.

So as I said, people only care about this because big bad America is involved.

You don't really get the point do ya.
Your example of Syria and Russia there is completely wrong.
First, Israel, during the years, has shown to be as heavy handed, if not more, compared to what's happening in Syria at the moment.
Second, people ARE questioning israel's actions, AND the us for fully supporting em, I don't understand what you are saying there when you say "angry with Syria not with Russia".
And finally, things are COMPLETELY different. Russia isn't advocating what Assad is doing. Russia is preventing a UN action (they could Be right seeing how things developed in Libya).
You CANNOT compare the relationship between USA and Israel with Russia and Syria.