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  1. #1161
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    You can't have war both ways. It isn't okay for one side to attack civilians and cry if the other side does it.
    That would be true if Israel was a terrorist state.

  2. #1162
    Anyone who didn't expect Israel to get into war(s) when news of an early election reached us a month or two ago obviously doesn't know their history. Personally, I support Israel. The international press likes to focus on them a lot more as evil oppressors of Palestine and a lot less as the nation surrounded by enemies who would love to wipe them off the map.

  3. #1163
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    The post was about hypocricy of calling that Hamas uses human shields and Israel bringing that constantly up when there are proven cases of Israel doing the very same thing not even 5 years ago.
    Soldiers who did that should be tried and punished.

    However, the IDF as a whole doesn't fight from behind its civilian population - something that cannot be said about Hamas, who place their launch sites in goddamn kindergartens among other places.

  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Even if Israel did use its citizens as human shields, it's just physically not possible for the Palestinian terror organizations to cause as many deaths with their rockets as Israel is causing their their strikes. The imbalance of power is incredibly immense and it's causing the imbalance in civilian casualty numbers.
    1 out of 8 rockets Hamas fires don't even make it across the border. The highly cried about little boy that Egypts PM held and kissed that was killed by Israel, was in fact killed by a Hamas rocket. I have yet to see a death toll from either the UN or Red Cross. Most the dead they claim are women and children, if you took a min to watch that video they talk about using them as human shields. Also I have yet to see a picture that people say is a dead family in Gaza that is actually a dead family.

    Almost all photos that people are claiming to be of Palestine are not. Even people in the BBC (http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-...-fauxtography/) are falling for it because people can't take the 30sec to use google images.

    If the Hamas cared about their children and people as much as the people of Israel do. We wouldn't even be having this talk right now. We would be talking about how bad WoW is and that the next MMO is going to crush it.

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Soldiers who did that should be tried and punished.
    If you read the last bit of the wiki quote, two men were trialed and found guilty but neither went to prison.

    Besides, using human shields was in fact a tactic for IDF up until 2005.

    The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

    Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]
    Last edited by Wilian; 2012-11-20 at 01:12 PM.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  6. #1166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    Personally, I support Israel.
    That doesn't mean you should switch off your brain and blindly support every action taken by the Israeli leaders, does it?

  7. #1167
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    The post was about hypocricy of calling that Hamas uses human shields and Israel bringing that constantly up when there are proven cases of Israel doing the very same thing not even 5 years ago.
    That is one report that said they kept the family in one room. Ever think that maybe this was done for the safety of that family? Rather than throw them out onto the street in the middle of a war....

  8. #1168
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    That is one report that said they kept the family in one room. Ever think that maybe this was done for the safety of that family? Rather than throw them out onto the street in the middle of a war....
    I hope you're aware how warfare against snipers work? You don't just run in casually, you bomb the shit out of the place just in case.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  9. #1169
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    That is one report that said they kept the family in one room. Ever think that maybe this was done for the safety of that family? Rather than throw them out onto the street in the middle of a war....
    Or, you know, maybe not set up a base and sniper position in an occupied civilian home. C'mon, who does that?

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    The point you have missed it. I never even mentioned Hamas, I only mentioned that you fail to recognise that there are innocent people on the other side of the fence too. Again you disgust me cubby as always.

    I don't think that anyone would disagree that not everyone in Palestine is behind the Hamas. Just like how not every Israeli is behind their government's actions. The difference is that the Hamas have no problem sacrificing their own people to gain an advantage. Which is why they stick their missile launchers in densely populated civilian centres.

    If the Israeli's don't attack because of too many civilians, they keep their missiles.
    If the Israeli's DO attack, civilians get killed and the Hamas proclaim to the world what monsters the Israeli's are, while laughingly launching other missiles into a city full of Israeli civilians.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Or, you know, maybe not set up a base and sniper position in an occupied civilian home. C'mon, who does that?
    Most countries. It's a very common tactic during urban warfare. It's not like they pick the house with the family in it, the way it usually happens is the sniper scopes out a good place to set up (broad view, hidden, easily defedable, etc.) and the the unit goes in there. I reckon in this incident the house was occupied and the soldiers decided they are going to set in there anyway and not go look for a diffrent home, and you can figure out the rest.

    Just saying.

  12. #1172
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    If the Israeli's don't attack because of too many civilians, they keep their missiles.
    If the Israeli's DO attack, civilians get killed and the Hamas proclaim to the world what monsters the Israeli's are, while laughingly launching other missiles into a city full of Israeli civilians.
    Which is exactly why the tactics used by Israel are not going to ever work (regardless of what you think of their moral justification). The only way to solve this is to make the Palestinians not want to lob rockets and bombs at Israelis. Bombing them back into the Middle Ages is not going to do that, it will just radicalize yet another generation of Palestinians.

    At this point it's getting ridiculous that the international community is allowing Israel to use these tactics because from past experience it is well known that they don't work and do nothing to solve the underlying problem. It also shows the incredible hypocrisy of the international community, since when the same thing happened in Kosovo, Serbia was bombed and troops put on the ground to make sure the muslims were allowed to live in their homes and stay in their land without fear of a superior military pushing them around however they saw fit based on some historical claim to the land.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JeDayKeen View Post
    Most countries. It's a very common tactic during urban warfare.
    Well it shouldn't be (although I highly doubt it is). It's beyond barbaric.

  13. #1173
    a sample movie about who is Hamans that control Gazza.
    youtube.com/watch?v=BUaTMr6bpuc

  14. #1174
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    but theyre nice people really. posting this just means your anti semitic /sarcasm

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post


    The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39]

    An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39]

    However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".

    On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#cite_ref-40

    "Whoops."

  15. #1175
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    "Oh my god, let's revolt!" said absolutely nobody after the FBI literally did just that when they stormed David Koresh's little cult hideout in Waco. Besides, the analogy falls apart when you consider that the Palestinians are being governed by the very people who are responsible for these attacks. If Hamas really cared about the casualties that they take, they'd cordon off their launch sites and ban civilians from entering. Obviously, it would make for a better target, and thus Hamas cares more about killing Israelis than defending their own people.
    Very nice false equivalency. Try to learn more about the entire situation there, and why exactly it is that Hamas supporters are among the populace themselves. Here's a hint: a good part of the people do not hate Hamas.

    It's pretty rough trying to fight a war cleanly when the other side openly encourages martyrdom. There was a video that Liara linked earlier in the thread, that has one of the leaders of Hamas(maybe THE leader? I don't remember) essentially saying that they were "a nation of martyrdom". I honestly don't know what the average Palestinian thinks about this, but their leaders sure seem to think that their lives are cheap. This doesn't bother you at all?
    I've already responded to this, and why Israel continuing to put pressure on the people to try to make them give up Hamas will not work. Scroll up.

    I'm also a little confused. When Hamas launches rocket strikes into civilian territory for weeks on end, and then finally Israel counterattacks, Hamas is vindicated? How do you figure that?
    Don't do selective reading. I never once said that the Palestinians were justified in their attacks. I did, however, say that Israel overall has a greater hand in crimes against humanity and because it is in a position of power has a greater responsibility in giving up some to resolve the conflict. This isn't the 60's. If Israel shows some signs of weakness, the rest of the Middle East isn't going to descend on them intent on destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian-to-soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death.
    And what exactly was the wikipedia article you were quoting? I'm not questioning the use of wikipedia, since you also included the source numbers, but without putting out the link to the actual article its not possible to follow up on what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    It is being used for that purpose. I am sure that all those rockets that are fired at Israel are targeted at the military and that any sort of civilians casualty is just really really unlucky.
    What exactly is the military function of an art museum? Or a radio station, when the military has their own communication methods?

  16. #1176
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    those images of the IDF using children as shields for their soldiers could come straight from Poland under the nazis. absolutely barbaric. no doubt well get the usual oh it didnt happen, its all fake, the work of anti semites etc but i think enough people are wakening up to whats really going on in gaza now to see through their lies.

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    And what exactly was the wikipedia article you were quoting? I'm not questioning the use of wikipedia, since you also included the source numbers, but without putting out the link to the actual article its not possible to follow up on what you said.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Very nice false equivalency. Try to learn more about the entire situation there, and why exactly it is that Hamas supporters are among the populace themselves. Here's a hint: a good part of the people do not hate Hamas.
    Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I've already responded to this, and why Israel continuing to put pressure on the people to try to make them give up Hamas will not work. Scroll up.
    Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Don't do selective reading. I never once said that the Palestinians were justified in their attacks. I did, however, say that Israel overall has a greater hand in crimes against humanity and because it is in a position of power has a greater responsibility in giving up some to resolve the conflict. This isn't the 60's. If Israel shows some signs of weakness, the rest of the Middle East isn't going to descend on them intent on destruction.
    If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.

    Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.

    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?

  19. #1179
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    but theyre nice people really. posting this just means your anti semitic /sarcasm
    Ooh, ooh, can I quote from the same article too?

    During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shields, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.[10]
    In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.[11]
    Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."[12] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.[13]
    The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.[14]
    On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation.[15] Local eyewitnesses later confirmed that Hamas militants had fired at Israeli troops from adjacent a UN school for girls where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge.[16][17] Forty-three Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire.[18] Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.[19]
    The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, an Israeli NGO with close ties to the IDF,[20] accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings—including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives’ houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones".[21][22] The IDF and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a video accusing Hamas in a systematic use of civilians as human shield, including several photoes of Hamas militants using children as human shield and two videoes from the Gaza War (2008-2009) showing Hamas militants grabbing children, allegdly using them as a human shield.[23] The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.[24]

  20. #1180
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace
    no thats the version of the truth you "victimised" israelis like to portray. the truth is that you had peace until the IDF killed a 13 year old palestinian boy on Nov 8th. every time there has been a deal the israelis have broken it. you lie and cheat and play the victim card. you wall people up in a ghetto, brutalise them and then provoke a reaction because you dont want peace. you want their land and now you want the massive gas and oil reserves recently discovered off the gaza coast. is it coincidence this all started up just weeks before the UN was due to vote on palestinian state hood? ofc it wasnt.

    Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha'aretz):

    "The Intifada is the Palestinian's people's war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime."

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