Gaza rocket fire resumes

[Venant]

Okay?

Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.

Israel is an apartheid state, it is basically South Africa v2.0, and like South Africa it will only change when the United States finally says that it has to change.

[Kasierith]

Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Its not only different on a few details here and there, its different in just about every way. For example, when the women and children tried to flee, they were shot down, not by the police, but by Koresh and his main supporters. What's more, the fire was either caused by the accidental ignition of tear gas or purposefully set by those aside, ie the fire was not the main line of attack. Stop trying to establish strawmen.

Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?

Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?

If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.

You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?

Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.

The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?

The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.

[N-7]

Yeah, I figured you'd pull something like that. Call me when you raid weapon caches and prevent easily traded and bought weapons from being circulated.

What do you think that I am lying, I merely stated my experience...

[Reeve]

Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...

[SirRobin]

It really is an ugly and sad situation dating all the way back to WWII. If the holocaust had not happened then Israel probably would not have happened. Its just an ongoing circle of hate with no end in sight. All it takes is one wacko or zealot on either side to start things all over again whenever they finally start making headway. Personally I don't see any sort of permanent peace ever being possible unless an unbiased third party comes in and imposes reconciliation and integration.

[Ausr]

What do you think that I am lying, I merely stated my experience...

That you haven't heard gunshots in Syria for years? Yeah, not believing that.

[ati87]

Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...

Their hasn't been a ceasefire to this date that Israel respected, at the very least they always bomb a few tunnels which Hamas uses to smuggle goods in.

And what they smuggle isn't even relevant because you made a deal that you won't attack them.

[Liara]

The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.

The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?

[Deleted]

"Israel says it is putting plans for a ground operation "on hold" to give talks on a ceasefire with Hamas militants in Gaza a chance."

It is political "suicide" to launch a large ground operation so close to the election, Hamas know it Israel know it, but it sound better if you can spin it so it look like Israel show restraint.

Sill convinced that Netanyahu did all this escalation to make him "look good" on the domestic plane, because the upcoming election.

[soulcrusher]

What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

more non truths Liara what started this was the IDF killing a 13 year old palestinian boy

[Deleted]

The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

What inquiry? source?

And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?

We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.

[Beavis]

Israel is an apartheid state, it is basically South Africa v2.0, and like South Africa it will only change when the United States finally says that it has to change.

People need to stop repeating this myth. Hate Israel all you want, but hate them for the right reasons. Gaza and the West Bank are both independent, non-state political entities, governed by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority, respectively. The people there are subject to the laws of their respective governments and therefore not under any sort of Apartheid.

Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.

[mistuhbull]

The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.

What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.

And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?

Did you forget Liara, Israel started it when they "stole" the land. Something which, i'll note, nobody has explained actually how you do that.

[Liara]

What inquiry? source?


We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.

Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
Specifically,

The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:44 PM ----------

more non truths Liara what started this was the IDF killing a 13 year old palestinian boy

Right, I forgot the national passtime here is shooting random boys for no reason whatsoever.

[tjanson]

Its not only different on a few details here and there, its different in just about every way. For example, when the women and children tried to flee, they were shot down, not by the police, but by Koresh and his main supporters. What's more, the fire was either caused by the accidental ignition of tear gas or purposefully set by those aside, ie the fire was not the main line of attack. Stop trying to establish strawmen.

Not going to argue the details with you, if you've looked into the situation at all you'd know that what happened inside the compound is still not at all clear. The bottom line is that the ATF/FBI task force sent tanks with tear gas and automatic weapons support into a civilian area to force the issue instead of slowly and peacefully resolving the situation - which is what President Clinton initially wanted to do until the Attorney General convinced him otherwise. You asked if people would freak out if the US killed 50 people to take out one man. Sorry if you don't like the answer.

Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?

I laughed when I read this. Hamas doesn't run on the "liberty or death" concept. Hamas is a terrorist organization who for years killed Israeli civilians indiscriminately and gained legitimacy when the Palestinians decided that they were the best way to fight Israel. How's that working out for them, by the way?

As to the American Revolution, one of the major differences is that the colonies actually had a chance of winning because Britain wasn't willing to commit enough of their forces to subdue their fellow Englishmen. Also I admit that my history classes were a bit biased, but I'm fairly sure that the colonies never sent saboteurs into Britain with the purpose of blowing up Parliament, or targets with even less strategic value. But yeah, other than that I guess Hamas and the 13 colonies operated exactly along the same lines.

You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?

Oh, is that why a multinational coalition was formed to stop Russia from absolutely kicking the shit out of Chechnya? Or when China crushed Tibet? I must have missed all of that. Unless it's in Europe's backyard(Serbia) or a complete wreck of a nation(Rwanda), or someone decides to royally piss off the US(Iraq, Afghanistan), the UN usually doesn't get involved beyond a slap on the wrist and a sternly worded letter(Iraq again). By all means provide actual examples if you disagree.

The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.

You're right, you didn't specifically say that Israel deserves all the blame for the situation. You just have heavily implied it in every single post you've made in this thread, with no real critique of Hamas to balance it out. My bad for saying clearly what you were saying obliquely, I guess?

[Deleted]

People need to stop repeating this myth. Hate Israel all you want, but hate them for the right reasons. Gaza and the West Bank are both independent, non-state political entities, governed by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority, respectively. The people there are subject to the laws of their respective governments and therefore not under any sort of Apartheid.

Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.

South Africa Apartheid did have the same type of concept, they did call it "Homlands" it was independent, non-state political entities, governed by blacks, but was constant overruled and controlled by the central (white) government.

Israeli citizens of arabic origin are not oppressed and enjoy the rights and privilege as appropriate to a citizen of a democratic state, BUT the problem is all the people who is denied citizenship (no law of return for them) and the government of Israel is using all the trick in the book to force them into a limbo.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:55 PM ----------

Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
Specifically,

No weapons that can I understand, but all the rest of the goods what is blockade? did UN clear that to?

[Deleted]

The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law

That's hilarious! Israel has blockaded in recent years such "weapons" as: pasta, tomato paste, juice, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies, candy, A4 paper, crayons, soccer balls, musical instruments, toilet paper, candles and wheelchairs.

Does that sounds like a list designed to "prevent weapons from entering Gaza"? Because to me that sounds awfully lot like collective punishment and a deliberate attempt to stop a nation from developing itself into a modern society.

[Liara]

That's hilarious! Israel has blockaded in recent years such "weapons" as: pasta, tomato paste, juice, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies, candy, A4 paper, crayons, soccer balls, musical instruments, toilet paper, candles and wheelchairs.

Does that sounds like a list designed to "prevent weapons from entering Gaza"? Because to me that sounds awfully lot like collective punishment and a deliberate attempt to stop a nation from developing itself into a modern society.

And yet, the international report made by a UN appointed committee completely disagrees with you.
Mostly because humanitarian goods don't enter by sea.

Also, have you got a source for your claim?

[Deleted]

And yet, the international report made by a UN appointed committee completely disagrees with you.

That says a lot more about the "UN appointed committee" than anything else.

Mostly because humanitarian goods don't enter by sea.

Yeah, they don't enter by sea because Israel is blockading the sea. When people try to import humanitarian goods by sea, IDF stops them and shoots them. Do you even think before writing?

Also, have you got a source for your claim?

Certainly you must be aware of such well known facts since you're so passionately debating the topic?

• http://www.un.org/ga/president/63/news/GazaReport.pdf
• http://www.economist.com/node/16264970
• http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/och...04_english.pdf
• http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...-gaza-1.276147
• http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...okies-1.295228

[soulcrusher]

tell it to the people that were killed or injured in international waters by IDF pirates. turkey your ally was less than impressed if i remember.