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  1. #1

    Redundancy of Raidgroup Application Forms

    I don't know wether it's the fact that a lot of the raidguilds are run by 20-25 year olds and they're just trying too hard and overcompensating too hard to try and look professional and serious, but there is seriously nothing that I find more useless, pointless than raidgroups that ask applicants to fill out applications.

    I guess I'm much more practically oriented myself, and if your raidgroup badly needs to fill up a spot with a healer or a ranged DPS ... why not just throw them a guild-invite and give them a recruit rank and let them show you if they are what you're looking for or not. If you're a majorly popular guild that gets multiple applications a week, sure, then I can understand this tool to try and weed out applications... But there are so many guilds that barely get 1 application a month, 1 application every week AT BEST ... who still insist that the application form is used and that people are to sit around like lemons until the young adult / teenager asses of officers manage to get together (if they remember to) to discuss the single application on their forum...

    The recruit / trial rank in guilds is seriously underused. Even while I was in world top progress guilds ... 99% of the trials (people that thus got through the application process) also ended up passing their trial (because they usually were the only application). Even if they sometimes didn't perform all that well... I bet there would've been in many cases better recruitment chances for better people if they didn't ask people to fill out applications. I know many of my friends and people that used to be in world top guilds can totally not be arsed to fill out applications, because 1. They know they're definately great and experienced players. 2. Don't want to be subjected to the arrogance of ... some of the guilds out there with very snotty attitudes. (Last week for example one of my friends got told to compete against the DPSers of another guild on the training dummies in Orgrimmar. He used to raid with Method for a good long time, he was ilvl 470 something... They put him up against mages and warlocks in full epic gear ilvl 490 etc. He does about 70k DPS ... their guys do 100k DPS ... then their officer replied with "you suck, l2play, we can't use noobs in our guild... Your application is denied.") People that were observing it and knew who this person was were facepalming ... luckily another guild that also needed to fill a spot threw him a guild-invite and this week alone he progressed several bosses past the guild that had the elitist attitude and rejected him (based on a very arbitrary test, not to mention the inaccuracy of it. ... Not that this means much, it's just an anecdotal story with a touch of irony I guess).

    Now... cross realm applications I might understand too. Or applications of people who secretly still want to stay in their guild while trying to get into another. But when this isn't the case... djeez. Why so serious? Get more practical, don't overcompensate on redundant bureaucratic matters.

    At least that's my opinion.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Hysteria's Avatar
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    From what I just got from your rant, It seems you very very upset because top tier guilds or any other guilds make you apply / test you to be good enough to be in there raid teams?

    Of course they are going to remove you if horrible I've seen it many times and I really do mean it many many times, First impressions are always there; They simply throw you away and get another app It's how it works from my experience.

    People want the best Apps OP and nothing more

    Application is usually there to see how dedicated you are / your background history everything - Your entire experience of raiding and yada yada. It's that Important ~
    Last edited by Hysteria; 2012-11-09 at 08:58 PM.

  3. #3
    If you can't spend 5 minutes to fill out a simple questionnaire it's pretty obvious what your interest level is from the outset.

    Remember that you're also asking 9 or 24 other people to invest hours upon hours of their week in you as well. The least you can do is show some initiative.

    Applications weed out the shit before you have to ask your guild to onboard a new member.

    PS. GL for almost 6 years, always had an application to join my guild.
    Last edited by Tradewind; 2012-11-09 at 08:59 PM.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Ryuuki's Avatar
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    To us it is a form of first impression and so that everyone in the guild knows a bit about the recruit when we do invite him. Moreover, we don't want to try out people that we wouldn't have invited if he has made an application. Raiding time is quite valuable with 12 (soon 16) bosses to progress on.

  5. #5
    So why don't businesses just hire everyone who throws in an application, and give them a "Temporary" tag? Doesn't work that way.

    If people can't handle the mundane task of filling out an application and providing links to their accomplishments, dps/hps charts, etc, how are they going to handle mundane farming? Or wiping to a heroic mode boss 100, 200, 300 times? People that know what they're doing with applications are going to be able to tell when someone is blowing smoke out their ass, and over-compensating/exaggerating their personal capabilities. People that can't take the 2 minutes to fill out an application are more arrogant than anyone else in the application process.

    You didn't need to make a thread to lament about your friend getting denied from a guild, and then "showing that guild up".

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    If you can't spend 5 minutes to fill out a simple questionnaire it's pretty obvious what your interest level is from the outset.

    Remember that you're also asking 9 or 24 other people to invest hours upon hours of their week in you as well. The least you can do is show some initiative.

    Applications weed out the shit before you have to ask your guild to onboard a new member.
    Exactly. Besides, where do you get the "fact" that the "majority" of raid guilds are run by "20 - 25 year olds overcompensating"?
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  7. #7
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    From what I just got from your rant, It seems you very very upset because top tier guilds make you apply / test you to be good enough to be in there raid teams?

    Of course they are going to remove you if horrible I've seen it many times and I really do mean it many many times, First impressions are always there. They simply throw you away and get another app It's how it works from my experience. People want the best Apps OP and nothing more
    No. Not upset at all. I'm fine in my guild but I've just been keeping an eye on the stuff some of my friends have to go through.

    It just seems like a very pointless, redundant and ... stupid way of some guilds to try and deal with their recruitment process. When you're like 99% of the guilds out there that barely get 1 application every 2-3 weeks, there are much better alternatives than to ask people to jump through some hoops.

    Many raidguilds really aren't worth the 5 minute effort of having to fill out a pointless questionaire when they could just throw you a trial-rank invite and let you show them what you can do with the raidspot they usually can't fill up in their raids anyway.

    It seems like a very idiotic way of approaching recruitment by 20 year olds who like to overcompensate and over-analyze bullshit. (Meaning the 'first impression' and 'show you can do effort' arguments).

  9. #9
    We used raid applications in the past. It was needed. We were raiding both 25 and 10 man with 4 raid nights a week. Not everyone who wanted to raid with the main raid could, nor could we afford to trial everyone that wanted a slot as there were others in the guild who weren't even making it to raid. The application was a way that we could learn a bit about the person, check their logs in an actual raid environment, and see if they could follow the very simple instructions of the form. All three were important. Anyone can stand at a dummy and pump out numbers. We wanted to see that they could do the same under pressure and that they weren't taking an obscene amount of damage as well.

  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    If a guild wants you to fill out an application, that is there choice not yours and if you want to be in that guild you will have to fill out the application. Which is really easy to bullshit in . My guild hasn't used them since before i joined and that was well over a year ago and we manage to stay quite high in realm ranking. So no its not needed.

    As for the dps dummy bs you are talking about. That is just dumb. Every class does different dps on target dummies and basing real dps on it is stupid. If a guild is so stupid as to not know this they wouldn't be worth joining. As for my opinion, As someone who has raided for 6 years now if i was to try find a new raiding guild. I would ask in wow. They can either take me or not. Its there loss not mine because i know i can handle every fight blizz throws at me no matter what class i play.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Exactly. Besides, where do you get the "fact" that the "majority" of raid guilds are run by "20 - 25 year olds overcompensating"?
    Erh............ I guess this is part of the infamous MMO-C culture, to nitpick on a "fact/opinion" statement?

    It's a figure of speech where I come from. Is it really a fact? Doubtful. No clue.

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force Hysteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    If a guild wants you to fill out an application, that is there choice not yours and if you want to be in that guild you will have to fill out the application. Which is really easy to bullshit in . My guild hasn't used them since before i joined and that was well over a year ago and we manage to stay quite high in realm ranking. So no its not needed.

    As for the dps dummy bs you are talking about. That is just dumb. Every class does different dps on target dummies and basing real dps on it is stupid. If a guild is so stupid as to not know this they wouldn't be worth joining. As for my opinion, As someone who has raided for 6 years now if i was to try find a new raiding guild. I would ask in wow. They can either take me or not. Its there loss not mine because i know i can handle every fight blizz throws at me no matter what class i play.
    Yeah the DPS dummy thing is just plain stupid any guild judging like that isn't worth your time well in my opinion anyway. I mean really they should be seeing how you perform in raids obviously in most cases

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    Yeah the DPS dummy thing is just plain stupid any guild judging like that isn't worth your time well in my opinion anyway. I mean really they should be seeing how you perform in raids obviously in most cases
    Or at least put you up against the same class. Even then i fight is dumb. Any money the mage and warlock were cleaving lol.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    No. Not upset at all. I'm fine in my guild but I've just been keeping an eye on the stuff some of my friends have to go through.

    It just seems like a very pointless, redundant and ... stupid way of some guilds to try and deal with their recruitment process. When you're like 99% of the guilds out there that barely get 1 application every 2-3 weeks, there are much better alternatives than to ask people to jump through some hoops.

    Many raidguilds really aren't worth the 5 minute effort of having to fill out a pointless questionaire when they could just throw you a trial-rank invite and let you show them what you can do with the raidspot they usually can't fill up in their raids anyway.

    It seems like a very idiotic way of approaching recruitment by 20 year olds who like to overcompensate and over-analyze bullshit. (Meaning the 'first impression' and 'show you can do effort' arguments).
    I wish I could post some of the applications I've received over the years but unfortunately I did a wipe of the database and apps forum prior to the start of MoP. Needless to say there are many that are immediately "rejectable." There's people who bullshit about their experience, who's motives become pretty clear and that they don't line up with the rest of your guild's ethos, one word responses to a multi-part question. It also gives you a frame of reference during a trial period, to see if what they said matches with their actions.

    Not everything in a guild is raiding and performance, there's personality considerations and more often than not an applicant's membership is directly dependent upon that component. DPS on a meter isn't going to tell you whether that person will fit into your group on a personality basis and it is far easier to work with improving someone and gearing someone who isn't a total dick.

  15. #15
    Things applications do; personal example.

    We had a Blood DK that gave logs that showed he didn't use Death and Decay.

    This is why applications exist. How mad would the other 9/24 people be to just "give a guy a shot" and he completely wastes your fucking time by not having a clue what to do?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Erh............ I guess this is part of the infamous MMO-C culture, to nitpick on a "fact/opinion" statement?

    It's a figure of speech where I come from. Is it really a fact? Doubtful. No clue.
    No, it's part of the real world culture where you say what you actually mean rather than using emotive and inflamatory phrases if you want a point to be taken seriously.

  17. #17
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    If someone can't even be bothered to fill out a simple guild application, why would the guild assume the player can be bothered to do things like attempt to maximize their character, get the best gear they can, learn dps rotations, gem and enchant?

    It gives you information about the person playing the character and not just the character itself.

  18. #18
    It might just be part of my own realm's culture where there are hundreds of guilds with raid progress through HoF on the same faction and where hundreds of raidguilds end up filling up the last spot in their raids with PuGs they find by spamming trade-chat.

    I think it wouldn't hurt for a lot of guilds out there to revise and reconsider their application process, or to restructure the way in which they recruit.

  19. #19
    I'm from one of those guilds that used to get 10-20 apps every month and the form was very important then. Now because of our server going low pop we don't receive nearly that many apps. BUT we still stand on our form process. Why? because people who are dedicated will take the time to fill it out. How they fill out a form like that tells us a lot about them. Did they take it seriously? Do they actually know their class enough to explain what their role is in a raid? Is their gear gemmed and enchanted properly(not only is it gemmed and enchanted but are they the proper ones)

    I think the app process is still a great way to weed out the people who don't put forth the effort, who don't have the desire. I'm not looking for the best of the best in an app. I'm looking for someone who wants to TRY. I can teach someone how to play, I can't teach someone how to care.

    Also on a side note, my guild is much more a community. We don't want just anyone in our family, we want to like them and get along with their personalities.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    It might just be part of my own realm's culture where there are hundreds of guilds with raid progress through HoF on the same faction and where hundreds of raidguilds end up filling up the last spot in their raids with PuGs they find by spamming trade-chat.

    I think it wouldn't hurt for a lot of guilds out there to revise and reconsider their application process, or to restructure the way in which they recruit.
    Why? Why fix what isn't broken.

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