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  1. #1
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Please help our Ele Shaman!

    Hey guys, I've done this on some of the other forums to help my guild's raiders and so far it's done pretty well, most of us have improved that needed to. Today, I come to the shaman forums to ask for some analytic help for our guilds elemental shaman, Kijoo. Now, to give some back story, Kijoo has been with us since Burning Crusade, but always as Enhancement. This expansion, he wanted to switch to Elemental, and I took over as the Enhancement Shaman (Trypticon). I know he's always been a good player, but he just doesn't seem to be picking it up. He is consistently low on the damage.

    I have plenty of logs available.

    Todays best attempt on Garalon:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xxd8a...=10066&e=10505

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xxd8a...=10911&e=11273

    Our Grand Vizier Zorlok Kill:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bwokg...?s=6978&e=7397

    An Elegon Kill yesterday:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/u4y1i...?s=4423&e=4961


    He is consistently lower than most other people. A lot of fights he pulls between 20k-40k less than other people. I really can't for the life of me figure out what the problem is. Can anyone give me some feed back?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    Hey guys, I've done this on some of the other forums to help my guild's raiders and so far it's done pretty well, most of us have improved that needed to. Today, I come to the shaman forums to ask for some analytic help for our guilds elemental shaman, Kijoo. Now, to give some back story, Kijoo has been with us since Burning Crusade, but always as Enhancement. This expansion, he wanted to switch to Elemental, and I took over as the Enhancement Shaman (Trypticon). I know he's always been a good player, but he just doesn't seem to be picking it up. He is consistently low on the damage.

    I have plenty of logs available.

    Todays best attempt on Garalon:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xxd8a...=10066&e=10505

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xxd8a...=10911&e=11273

    Our Grand Vizier Zorlok Kill:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bwokg...?s=6978&e=7397

    An Elegon Kill yesterday:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/u4y1i...?s=4423&e=4961


    He is consistently lower than most other people. A lot of fights he pulls between 20k-40k less than other people. I really can't for the life of me figure out what the problem is. Can anyone give me some feed back?
    I had already posted this nooblord, but I'll delete mine.

    P.S its poring not pouring

  3. #3
    High Overlord
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    Well first of all, hes not using glyph of flameshock, blizzard introduced the new talents and glyphs so people would have choices, but glyph of flameshock is mandatory for elemental. For fights like elegon where your fire elemental is able to be up for its full duration, glyph of fire elemental is also a bad choice.

    Second, he could work on his uptime on the bosses, he doesn't have terrible uptime, but it could get better. He should be using the hit on use int trinket from heroics over that blue one, until he gets the shado-pan trinket. This would help his initial ascendence burst, and would line up with future ascendence for overall higher dps.

    Other than gimping himself by not using glyph of flameshock there isn't much you can criticize based on his logs and armory. He probably hasn't mastered, or come close to mastering his rotation either. He is slightly below hit cap and needs to change his glove enchant to haste.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...sucks/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/13329/
    Last edited by Kymei; 2012-11-11 at 09:48 PM.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Elapo's Avatar
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    I looked him up on the armory first, I assume he's http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Kijoo/advanced

    So, His reforges are wrong to start with, the correct stat prio for ele is Haste > Mastery > Crit. Get rid of the reforges haste => mastery and of the reforges to crit. If you find it hard to do so, use MrRobot or Reforgelite

    Next up, he has non crit lava bursts (not a lot, but still. You should have 100% crit) ands the amount of elemental blasts seems also quite low to me.

    I'll just paste the rotation from the sticky in the shaman forum here (assuming he's still running Elemental blast):

    Single Target, Stationary
    1. Cast Flame Shock IF the DoT has expired or has 1 tick remaining.

    2. Cast Lava Burst IF it is off cooldown AND Flame Shock is on the target

    3. IF you have the L90 talent Elemental Blast, cast Elemental Blast

    4. Cast Earth Shock IF Lightning Shield is at 6-7 charges.

    5. Use Fire Elemental Totem IF the cooldown has expired

    6. Drop Searing Totem IF you have no active fire totem AND Fire Elemental Totem cooldown has more than 15 seconds remaining

    7. Cast Lightning Bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    Well first of all, hes not using glyph of flameshock, blizzard introduced the new talents and glyphs so people would have choices, but glyph of flameshock is mandatory for elemental. For fights like elegon where your fire elemental is able to be up for its full duration, glyph of fire elemental is also a bad choice.
    Glyph of flameshock doesn't affect your DPS by 20-40k . Nor does Glyph of fire elemental.
    Last edited by Elapo; 2012-11-11 at 10:02 PM.
    CPU: I7 2600k @ 3.5GHz - GPU:ASUS DCUIIO GTX680 MOBO: MSI Z68-GD65 G3 - RAM: Kingston 8GB DDR3 - SSD: MX100 512GB - HDD: WD Blue 1TB/WD Green 2TB - CASE: Aerocool Xwarrior - Monitor: Samsung SA300 23" + Medion 23" (2x 1080p) - PSU: Corsair TX 850 - OS: Win7 Ultimate 64

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    And 97% of the Internet knows that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot!

  5. #5
    - if he is still learning Elemental consider switching to Primal Elementalist instead of Elemental Blast, he can switch back when he has the other stuff down (see next points)
    - number of LvBs seems quite low considering Ascendence and 34 Lava Surge procs, has to watch out better for that
    - FS uptime has to be higher, usually aim for 100%
    - fire totem uptime should be higher

    Is he aware there is no rotation but a priority system for Ele spells?

    - gearing seems ok, but:
    - the reforging is total CRAP: never reforge TO crit, it almost seems he somehow has mastery > crit > haste, this is wrong
    - reforging everything to mastery is also not optimal; should keep about same levels of haste and mastery, exact numbers to be found out with SimulationCraft, see sticky
    - he has to change spellthread to the one with spirit instead of crit

    - skinning is the second worst profession for elemental behind mining

    EDIT: missed the fact he is not using FS glyph, that is shooting yourself in the foot shock management wise

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 11:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elapo View Post
    Glyph of flameshock doesn't affect your DPS by 20-40k (and it's not mandatory either, just preference. I don't use it). Nor does Glyph of fire elemental.
    It does not make a difference of 20-40k - true.

    It causes the FS to cause more damage per spell cast -> loss of initial damage is surpassed by gain from additional ticks.
    It makes the weaving of FS and ES a lot easier.

    Every guide has it as mandatory, simulations show it is a dps gain.
    Last edited by Hyos; 2012-11-11 at 10:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Elapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyos View Post
    It does not make a difference of 20-40k - true.

    It causes the FS to cause more damage per spell cast -> loss of initial damage is surpassed by gain from additional ticks.
    It makes the weaving of FS and ES a lot easier.

    Every guide has it as mandatory, simulations show it is a dps gain.
    Indeed, I looked it up, slapped myself across the face and logged my shaman to change it :P
    CPU: I7 2600k @ 3.5GHz - GPU:ASUS DCUIIO GTX680 MOBO: MSI Z68-GD65 G3 - RAM: Kingston 8GB DDR3 - SSD: MX100 512GB - HDD: WD Blue 1TB/WD Green 2TB - CASE: Aerocool Xwarrior - Monitor: Samsung SA300 23" + Medion 23" (2x 1080p) - PSU: Corsair TX 850 - OS: Win7 Ultimate 64

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    And 97% of the Internet knows that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot!

  7. #7
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/shaman/elemental
    has some quite nice guides, hints to rotation/priority etc for every class and every spec - could be worth a read..

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    Second, he could work on his uptime on the bosses, he doesn't have terrible uptime, but it could get better. He should be using the hit on use int trinket from heroics over that blue one, until he gets the shado-pan trinket. This would help his initial ascendence burst, and would line up with future ascendence for overall higher dps.

    Other than gimping himself by not using glyph of flameshock there isn't much you can criticize based on his logs and armory. He probably hasn't mastered, or come close to mastering his rotation either. He is slightly below hit cap and needs to change his glove enchant to haste.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...sucks/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/13329/
    The Shado-Pan crit trinket, while being an upgrade from Vision, isn't better than FRG. Also, saving trinkets for Ascendance is generally a DPS loss, as is using Crit bonuses during Ascendance.

    The enchant is also fine. There's no need to focus purely on haste anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Elapo View Post
    I looked him up on the armory first, I assume he's http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Kijoo/advanced

    So, His reforges are wrong to start with, the correct stat prio for ele is Haste > Mastery > Crit. Get rid of the reforges haste => mastery and of the reforges to crit. If you find it hard to do so, use MrRobot or Reforgelite

    Next up, he has non crit lava bursts (not a lot, but still. You should have 100% crit) ands the amount of elemental blasts seems also quite low to me.

    Glyph of flameshock doesn't affect your DPS by 20-40k . Nor does Glyph of fire elemental.
    There is no "correct" stat priority. There's a rough guideline, but the rest of it is balancing stats. I myself am looking at gemming Int/Crit for a few yellow sockets while keeping a Haste=Mastery>Crit reforge setup to balance things out correctly.
    Also, Mr Robot doesn't quite handle reforging correctly, nor are the default stat weights valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilia View Post
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/shaman/elemental
    has some quite nice guides, hints to rotation/priority etc for every class and every spec - could be worth a read..
    Noxxic isn't completely accurate.

    To be honest, it sounds like your Elemental player hasn't done much research/reading of guides, which will explain a large portion of why he's not playing that well. Once he reads & understands the guide, you could use this guide for Comparebot to further evaluate and improve his performance. Personally I think that the best fight for personal evaluation is Feng, rather than any of your listed fights.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilia View Post
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/shaman/elemental
    has some quite nice guides, hints to rotation/priority etc for every class and every spec - could be worth a read..
    The most complete elemental guide available now is the one that is available here on the forums, though. It is also the same guide as the one distributed to elitistjerks, totemspot and the official forums. It was written by Endus, Binkenstein and Gistwiki (yeah Binkenstein who posted above, and yeah Endus who is moderator here :-D)

    Also I will state here that I am not a fan of noxxic. Both them and icy veins seem not up to the highest standard to me, I've seen them sometimes post false information and got the feeling they create guides by rephrasing other's work.
    Last edited by Hyos; 2012-11-11 at 11:25 PM.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Wheater's Avatar
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    I hope I can help out a little bit with my limited knowledge of ele. For elegon I'm forced to go my os, which is ele, and even a few weeks ago with close to 15 ilvls less than your shaman, and gemming full spirit for resto, I completely smash him. My first guess is that he is too worried about mechanics and not focused on pushing the dps. The biggest difference when I look at my logs compared to his is that he uses chain lightening 14 throughout the fight! I've got 84 on one of our kills, and 55 the next. He can get ridiculous damage if he pops his spirit-walkers grace and chain lightening the second he sees 3 adds up and his cylinder is down. Have him try to pull that off and spam the crap out of the adds, paying particular attention to get into the middle for the damage buff as soon as the floor's back up.

    For your Vizier kill there are a few much bigger problems with his dps. His flameshock uptime is only 88.5%, and while he did take a fall during the fight, I would hope you could rez him before ~40 seconds went on. He used elemental blast 15 times, 12 second cd is only worth 3 minutes of the fight... This means he used Elemental Blast about half as much as he should have. 8 Fulmination is okay. It's probably about 3 short, but not extremely low that I would think its his main problem. From looking at this fight I would guess he's not using flame shock glyph, but his armory is saying he is. Idk but there are some ideas to help you get started. Cheers and if you need more help, feel free to hit me up anytime =)

  11. #11
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elapo View Post
    Glyph of flameshock doesn't affect your DPS by 20-40k . Nor does Glyph of fire elemental.
    You're wrong, but okay.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    The Shado-Pan crit trinket, while being an upgrade from Vision, isn't better than FRG. Also, saving trinkets for Ascendance is generally a DPS loss, as is using Crit bonuses during Ascendance.

    The enchant is also fine. There's no need to focus purely on haste anymore
    Who said anything about saving trinkets for ascendance, why would you use crit bonuses during ascendance, how much thought did you put into your post?

    There's no need to focus purely on haste anymore? Prove it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post

    There's no need to focus purely on haste anymore? Prove it.
    Haste value is only *slightly* more than mastery, which is only a little more than crit. Technically haste is the best but its not so much better that you absolutely have to focus on it. Most sims and references indicating that haste~mastery>crit

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    You're wrong, but okay.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:07 PM ----------



    Who said anything about saving trinkets for ascendance, why would you use crit bonuses during ascendance, how much thought did you put into your post?

    There's no need to focus purely on haste anymore? Prove it.
    Actually, you're wrong. Glyph of Flame Shock is a ~300 DPS improvement, whereas Glyph of Flame Elemental results in an uptime reduction of about 9 seconds, on average.

    You did, in your statement "This would help his initial ascendence burst, and would line up with future ascendence for overall higher dps.". My statement to clarify the Ascendance/trinket stacking was due to the implication that your advice would apply to all trinkets, rather than just one with a minute cooldown. Additionally, the recommendation to use a Crit on-use trinket during Ascendance, which is when you're chain casting a spell which has a 100% crit chance with Flame Shock on the target, is just a tiny bit wrong.

    As for your last question/challenge, go run a few simulations and see for yourself.

  14. #14
    Have him download the addon called elementalist, it helped my shaman dps tremendously.

  15. #15

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    Actually, you're wrong. Glyph of Flame Shock is a ~300 DPS improvement, whereas Glyph of Flame Elemental results in an uptime reduction of about 9 seconds, on average.

    You did, in your statement "This would help his initial ascendence burst, and would line up with future ascendence for overall higher dps.". My statement to clarify the Ascendance/trinket stacking was due to the implication that your advice would apply to all trinkets, rather than just one with a minute cooldown. Additionally, the recommendation to use a Crit on-use trinket during Ascendance, which is when you're chain casting a spell which has a 100% crit chance with Flame Shock on the target, is just a tiny bit wrong.

    As for your last question/challenge, go run a few simulations and see for yourself.
    I love it, it is my favorite thing in WoW, telling people to prove me wrong, and they reply with, GO SIM IT FOR YOURSELF. I'll ask one more time because you seem to treat your opinions as facts, PROVE me wrong that it isn't worth focusing on haste.

    Glyph of flame shock is a 300 DPS improvement in theory, in theory if your flameshock falls off during ascendance or with 7 earthshock stacks OR with instant lavaburst proc it will be a much greater DPS loss than 300dps, on fights like elegon it could be the difference between 110k dps and 90k.

    No one recommended to use a crit on use trinket, I told him to get the hit int on use trinket to line up with his ascendance, you really do a poor job reading.

    Edit: Even your own guide says Intellect > Hit/Spirit to 15% cap > Haste > Mastery > Crit

    Here buddy, I see you like simcraft, so go into simcraft and look at the stat values. If the value for haste is 2.01 and mastery is 2.00, it doesn't make haste= to mastery, it makes haste = to mastery if you don't give a shit, but in math terms haste is still better, and if you argue with math your'e going to lose.
    Last edited by Kymei; 2012-11-12 at 06:06 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    I told him to get the hit int on use trinket to line up with his ascendance, you really do a poor job reading.
    The Flashfrozen Resin Globule has 2.5 minute cd, not 3 like ascendance. Maybe that's why he thought you were recommending saving a trinket for it.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    I love it, it is my favorite thing in WoW, telling people to prove me wrong, and they reply with, GO SIM IT FOR YOURSELF. I'll ask one more time because you seem to treat your opinions as facts, PROVE me wrong that it isn't worth focusing on haste.

    Glyph of flame shock is a 300 DPS improvement in theory, in theory if your flameshock falls off during ascendance or with 7 earthshock stacks OR with instant lavaburst proc it will be a much greater DPS loss than 300dps, on fights like elegon it could be the difference between 110k dps and 90k.

    No one recommended to use a crit on use trinket, I told him to get the hit int on use trinket to line up with his ascendance, you really do a poor job reading.

    Edit: Even your own guide says Intellect > Hit/Spirit to 15% cap > Haste > Mastery > Crit

    Here buddy, I see you like simcraft, so go into simcraft and look at the stat values. If the value for haste is 2.01 and mastery is 2.00, it doesn't make haste= to mastery, it makes haste = to mastery if you don't give a shit, but in math terms haste is still better, and if you argue with math your'e going to lose.
    /sigh.

    Fine. Simulation incoming.

    Actually, Glyph of Flame Shock is going to be pretty critical when you get your 4pc bonus and are generating lightning shield charges at twice the normal rate. The ~300 dps difference is assuming a no-gimmick setup and you know how to manage your shocks properly.

    You said " until he gets the shado-pan trinket." That trinket is a on-use crit buff trinket. The preceding comment was about getting FRG until he could get said Shado-Pan trinket.

    My guide says it is a rough estimate, and it even has "rough" in bold. Perhaps it is you who fails at reading.

    Saying that 2.01 for Haste and 2.00 for Mastery makes Haste better means that you fail to understand statistical probability and error margins (and also pulled those numbers out of thin air, because Elemental does not have weights that high for either of those stats)

    Here is the sim, using my current gear. http://www.totemspot.com/simc/Binkenstein.html

    As you can see, Mastery is at 1.18 with Haste at 1.17. By your logic this must mean Mastery > Haste, but the error value of 0.05 means that Mastery is really 1.13-1.23 vs Haste with 1.12-1.22 (if it's a percentage the value ranges will be different, but still over-lap). Obviously there's no clear way to say that one is better than the other, unlike with either vs Crit, which is at best 1.12, or equal to the worst possible values for Haste & Mastery.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    /sigh.

    Fine. Simulation incoming.

    Actually, Glyph of Flame Shock is going to be pretty critical when you get your 4pc bonus and are generating lightning shield charges at twice the normal rate. The ~300 dps difference is assuming a no-gimmick setup and you know how to manage your shocks properly.

    You said " until he gets the shado-pan trinket." That trinket is a on-use crit buff trinket. The preceding comment was about getting FRG until he could get said Shado-Pan trinket.

    My guide says it is a rough estimate, and it even has "rough" in bold. Perhaps it is you who fails at reading.

    Saying that 2.01 for Haste and 2.00 for Mastery makes Haste better means that you fail to understand statistical probability and error margins (and also pulled those numbers out of thin air, because Elemental does not have weights that high for either of those stats)

    Here is the sim, using my current gear. http://www.totemspot.com/simc/Binkenstein.html

    As you can see, Mastery is at 1.18 with Haste at 1.17. By your logic this must mean Mastery > Haste, but the error value of 0.05 means that Mastery is really 1.13-1.23 vs Haste with 1.12-1.22 (if it's a percentage the value ranges will be different, but still over-lap). Obviously there's no clear way to say that one is better than the other, unlike with either vs Crit, which is at best 1.12, or equal to the worst possible values for Haste & Mastery.

    I gave you an example of haste > mastery =/= haste = mastery by using the values 2.01 and 2.00, and you say I fail to understand statistical probability and error margins and just made up numbers out of thin air, you sir are a moron.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    I gave you an example of haste > mastery =/= haste = mastery by using the values 2.01 and 2.00, and you say I fail to understand statistical probability and error margins and just made up numbers out of thin air, you sir are a moron.
    And I explained why I doubt the values provided. Can you give me a source please, and refrain from calling people names.

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