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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette of Seraphim View Post
    157,000/314,762,562 people in the United States want a secession.

    SHIT JUST GOT REAL!
    \b\ has been sort of running a campaign to sign the succession stuff with fake names. I have doubts that a majority of those signatures are legit.

  2. #802
    Pandaren Monk Silhouette of Seraphim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    \b\ has been sort of running a campaign to sign the succession stuff with fake names. I have doubts that a majority of those signatures are legit.
    They were saying in the articles there were a noticeable portion that were from out-of-staters, so I'd believe it.
    They can dynamite Devil Reef, but that will bring no relief, Y'ha-nthlei is deeper than they know.

  3. #803
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Honestly, cut spending and raise taxes is the only way to get rid of the National debt at this point. I would say 'F' the 'fiscal cliff' and let the system self correct from the Bush era stupidity. The President should focus on bringing back Jobs and manufacturing industries, I would raise tariffs on all products and services from ALL foreign nations meaning China and all of NAFTA, in fact I would leave NAFTA. It hasn't raised the standard of living in Mexico and has only lowered the standard of living here.
    Using protective tariffs just invites retaliatory tariffs and slows down the world economy in general, which isn't good.
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  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    It may not justify it but, to a degree, it does excuse it. For "some," not all of course, we are really approaching the point where "scorched earth" tactics become acceptable. Politically and economically at least. What has bothered me the most is that I am beginning to see a similar reaction from liberal elements as well. After Bush v Gore and eight years of Junior, some liberals I know were itching to get back into the driver's seat. The republicans behavior, despite reality slapping them across the face, is genuinely angering some liberals. The classic "conservative rage versus liberal guilt" dynamic is pretty confused right now. With increasing amounts of guilt and rage on both sides.

    Its actually been quite fascinating to watch it all play out.
    Let's please not forget what's being watched here. This isn't a just about political ideologies these are people. Men and Women same as the rest of us. We forget that and we are really and truly screwed.

    Not to say anyone here has or for that matter hasn't of course.

  5. #805
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Using protective tariffs just invites retaliatory tariffs and slows down the world economy in general, which isn't good.
    Since America is the Largest consumer nation on Earth, who cares if China wants to raise Tariffs on American goods, they don't buy our crap anyway.

    See list

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nsumer_markets

  6. #806
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Since America is the Largest consumer nation on Earth, who cares if China wants to raise Tariffs on American goods, they don't buy our crap anyway.

    See list

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nsumer_markets
    The thing is by doing that you would be hurting your middle/lower class because of raise in prices more than China itself.

  7. #807
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    The thing is by doing that you would be hurting your middle/lower class because of raise in prices more than China itself.
    You mean to say, force low income families to stop thinking Walmart is the answer. I would rather cheap consumer goods to become evenly priced ie American made vs Chinese than to have high rates of unemployment. The right says they want to avoid a welfare state, they say they want the Jobs back. Well here's why the Jobs are gone, you can pay a Chinese person $100 a week to work 80 hours a week in a factory. If the labor costs in China where equal to the labor costs in America than Walmart would be the most expensive store chain in America. (last I checked Walmart has over 90% Chinese made goods). The Answer is not get rid of regulations and tariffs which is what Bush did.

    Edit:

    P.S. the UK had some of the highest Tariffs in the world, when it was the strongest. Look at your own economic history. America has a Free Trade Agreement with China and Mexico and America lost all of it's jobs to China and Mexico.
    Last edited by Gothicshark; 2012-11-14 at 05:34 AM.

  8. #808
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    The thing is by doing that you would be hurting your middle/lower class because of raise in prices more than China itself.
    Indeed, but we are already hurting the "middle/lower" class. We have been for decades. Would a sharp jolt of short-term pain provide long-term gain for the middle/lower class? Or are we basically trapped in a slow downward spiral of, at best, damage control? Would forcing our nation to be mostly self-sufficient actually solve it? I'm tempted to say yes but it would be a drastic change from what most people have become, economically and politically, resigned too.
    Last edited by SirRobin; 2012-11-14 at 05:37 AM.
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  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    They may have been called food stamps when obama was elected, not sure when they got the fancy credit card. Obama did however take away the work requirement to receive these benefits. Combine that with high taxes on successful people and im waking up at 6am everyday for what reason?

    You dont need your own cell phone to call for a job interview, they are uncapped mins with texting...

    He is taking money from people who dont support him to give to people who do, this will keep the democrats in power for a long time.

    Cant blame texas for wanting out, they are a success while the democratic area's that got obama elected are bankrupt.
    1)Job requirement for food stamp is still there. Its not gone, i checked.

    2)They have text support, but text uses up minute as well. The minute is capped, you have the choice whether to take 300 minutes or so, but no rollover, or 65 minutes with rollover, thus someone can accumulate about 2000 minutes or so, if they are stingy with their minutes.

    3)yes, you need cell phones now a days. When employers can not reach you, they offer the job to someone else. Since cell phone is standard, employers assume everyone has them, even though not everyone do.

    4)Taxas is not a success. They did use the stimulus money. Like all gov't levels, they too used gimmiks to show balanced budget now.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Can I sign a thing that kicks Texas out?
    Yeah man, let's kick out a big part of the economy. GREAT IDEA TEXAS IS ONLY THE 15TH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.

  11. #811
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    Yeah man, let's kick out a big part of the economy. GREAT IDEA TEXAS IS ONLY THE 15TH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.
    Yeah... and the United States is THE largest economy in the world. As in, we have the economic width and depth to weather losing Texas. Texas no longer being part of THE largest economy in the world may not be as survivable for them, however.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  12. #812
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    Yeah man, let's kick out a big part of the economy. GREAT IDEA TEXAS IS ONLY THE 15TH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.
    Rain I think you missed the sarcasm in that post. However lets look at why Texas is the 15 largest Economy.

    1. Gulf cost Oil, Which is owned by the United States and the US Navy protects that Oil.
    2. Agriculture, mostly cotton and Cattle.
    3. Aeronautics, the US government built up 2 main aerospace locations one in Huston and the other in Los Angeles.
    4. Military, the US Army and Ft Hood.
    5. Deference contracting number 2 spot for military contractors.
    6. Computer Technology, Governor Perry gave huge tax brakes to attract technology to move in.

    What happens if Texas leaves (which it can't) they loose all US government contracts, and the access to US oil in the Gulf, that alone will cut the Economy in half in Texas, Californian businesses would boom gaining these contracts, and Louisiana would get the rights to Gulf cost oil. Backed by the US Navy. ie Texas couldn't do sh** about that. This would leave Cotton and Cattle as the primary sources of the Texas economy, Granted I think the US would impose large tariffs on these goods, since many other states in the Union have Cattle and Cotton. Oh and the tech industry in Austin would move back to California.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Thoughts? Secession is illegal, and failed in 1860. This is crap brought to you by malcontent whiners and nothing more.
    And the ironic thing is when it failed in 1860's it was kicked off by this same situation but for the other party. The first 8 slave states declared secession in response to Lincoln (a republican) being elected on a platform of preventing the spread of slavery(but not at that time abolishing it in states where it was legal) While the issue in contention has changed (entitlements and out of control spending today instead of slavery of 1860) the events of today mirror the events back then to an alarming degree.

    I also wouldnt be so sure on the illegal part. The original federation of states that was the precursor to the modern united states had provisions for a state withdrawing as I recall. I can not say for sure if that carried over into the constitution without research but I'd still call it a legal grey area. While historical precedent shows that Lincoln and the federal government of that time declared the succession as an illegal rebellion I cant say one way or another if that was truly the law or it was just the victor making the rules, that and the south attacked first so not much choice at that point.

    While that petition is only a first step and little more than a bunch of people stating in no uncertain terms that they are not happy with this administration and want out its nowhere near pulling out of the union yet. They would need a full blown vote on the issue to even attempt to move forward with this not just a petition signed by a bunch of angry people. Texas is not the only state where that kind of petition is going around however. Still I'm worried, I wondered on election night when the race was called what was going to happen to the country. Would the economy collapse under the weight of the national debt? (our current spending is unsustainable even with a 100% tax on the rich) Or would things get so bad some stats would try to secede and spark another civil war? Both options are equiliy grim and I cant burry my head in the sand and think happy thoughts that everything will be fine and dandy without major change. Change that both partys are so diametrically opposed on how to go about it that nothing will ever happen till the whole house of cards collapses.

    Who is John Galt?

  14. #814
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merendel View Post
    I also wouldnt be so sure on the illegal part.
    Texas v. White 1869, it was a law suit which caused the supreme court to deiced if secession was legal or illegal. The confederate government sold off U.S. treasury bonds that the US gave Texas in 1850, and after the war the new Texas government wanted those bonds back. The supreme court ruled that legally the Bonds could not be sold off by the confederates and that they still belonged to Texas.

    these are the Judges words on this:

    "The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?

    When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States."

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Merendel View Post
    And the ironic thing is when it failed in 1860's it was kicked off by this same situation but for the other party. The first 8 slave states declared secession in response to Lincoln (a republican) being elected on a platform of preventing the spread of slavery(but not at that time abolishing it in states where it was legal) While the issue in contention has changed (entitlements and out of control spending today instead of slavery of 1860) the events of today mirror the events back then to an alarming degree.
    The two economies, north and south, were segnificantly different, where south would see a major hit if slavery went away. It has nothing in common, the issues changed drastically and no events today mirror it.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    The two economies, north and south, were segnificantly different, where south would see a major hit if slavery went away. It has nothing in common, the issues changed drastically and no events today mirror it.
    There might have been a little bit to do with the south whining because the north had more money and more votes than they did, so the north would have been able to pass whatever legislation they wanted without the south being able to block it. Slavery, although generally considered 'the' issue, was just the tipping point.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Merendel View Post
    While that petition is only a first step and little more than a bunch of people stating in no uncertain terms that they are not happy with this administration and want out its nowhere near pulling out of the union yet.
    The terms are certain, it's takes 25k signatures to respond. Those are the certain terms of this entire thing. There is also a petition to deport everyone who singed the secede petition, which I guess is the first step to make those who don't want to be part of America to leave it. Replace them all with immigrants who risk their lives to be part if the country.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 07:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    There might have been a little bit to do with the south whining because the north had more money and more votes than they did, so the north would have been able to pass whatever legislation they wanted without the south being able to block it. Slavery, although generally considered 'the' issue, was just the tipping point.
    This is more of what happened under Bush than civil war. The uniques of the argument during civil war, was not the lack of power of for one side over the other. There is nothing that either party can implement right now, that would cripple one side in favor of the other.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    This is more of what happened under Bush than civil war. The uniques of the argument during civil war, was not the lack of power of for one side over the other. There is nothing that either party can implement right now, that would cripple one side in favor of the other.
    The Civil War was about economic and political power, and frightened men who were afraid of becoming unimportant. Slavery (of new states), although at the center of the matter, was not the real issue, but what was happening on that issue illuminated that the south had neither the money nor the people to do anything but allow the north to do whatever they wanted.

  19. #819
    This is so stupid, now Washington has a petition there as well. The same Washington that just nearly swept blue and passed both gay marriage and legalized pot. Is there one for NJ, NY and California yet? Anyone put in a petition to give cats citizenship rights? In fact, change citizenship criteria to be entirely dependant on cuteness. Now that's change we can believe in!

  20. #820
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    So OP's idiotic topic caused a 41 page thread.... I guess the US really is falling apart.

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