USA falling apart?

[obdigore]

That's not what I am saying. I'm saying the economic advantage the south had due to slavory, made it's abolition an economic problem. I'm not talking about slavery as a civil rights issue, but the crux of the economic. That what makes the civil war unique, there is nothing the federal government can do, that would have such an economic hit for one side of the country versus the gains got by the other. There is nothing in the power of the federal government, that would swing economies in such a way.

There were no bills or plans to abolish slavery in the south with the Confederacy was declared. They claimed it was about 'states rights' regarding the legality of slavery in new states, but in actuality it was because they had come to recognize the truth that even when not putting a presidential candidate on their ballots that candidate (Lincoln) could still win a Presidential Election even if no one in their states supported him. That was the proof that they were nigh powerless.

Remember that Lincoln wasn't really in favor of Abolition until well into the War, and the 7 States declared the Confederacy after Lincoln was elected but before he took office. It was all about economic and political power, and the Confederate states pretty much said 'if our votes don't matter, we are leaving'.

[Deleted]

*Facepalms* I feel ashamed to say I live in one of those states, why does this have to happen, they need to just get over it. I hope this just blows over and fails.

Its not even a thing, its a random petition on the whitehouse page that can be created by anyone.
Heck the petition with the most votes is the one that allows you to opt out of obamacare

Makes me wonder how they would deal with immigration. With so much of their agrucoltural economy dependant on illigal immigrants, will they have public transportation from Mexico?

Well its easy, they will start with the queer-kristallnacht championed by a mormon priest, removing all the weaklings from the country.
Then the barrier of church/state/military will be reformed to grant said mormon priest full control.
Immigrants that can not provide a form of god blessed lineage will be put into work camps, stragglers around the border will also be interned.
Finnishing with a blitzkrieg against louisiana, who will just surrender and integrate only shadowing the things to come !

[chocobo606]

lol, I hope these people realize that breaking off from the US will cause them more problems than good. I mean look at those numbers, aside from Texas they're all far less than 1% of the population of those states. If only Mitt Romney got in, I'm sure America would be so much greener and better.

and really, the whole "founding fathers" argument... I hope they realize the founding fathers weren't exactly the smartest or...best of people. You know, the whole slavery is okay comes off the top of my head. But yeah, keep it it up Texas, I hope you do break off and become your own country with your own government, so every decent person in Texas moves back to the US. Hell, maybe we're better off without the people who give the state a bad name with their we hate black people, we hate gay people, we hate abortion and we love guns and the death penalty, and we also hate the US, ourselves!

[Deleted]

to those who still claim that secession is forbidden, watch Ben Swan regardin this issue:

[Gothicshark]

to those who still claim that secession is forbidden, watch Ben Swan regardin this issue:

[ video=youtube;0fegDJuLqo0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0fegDJuLqo0[/video]

He fails to mention what was put in place after the civil-war, specifically Texas vs White, which I mentioned before. one major principle of our laws come from the interpretation of those laws by our courts. and the only time the concept of secession made it to the supreme court, their response in the is that a State in the Union is forever.

What is really sad is how unpatriotic these people really are.

[Deleted]

He fails to mention what was put in place after the civil-war, specifically Texas vs White, which I mentioned before. one major principle of our laws come from the interpretation of those laws by our courts. and the only time the concept of secession made it to the supreme court, their response in the is that a State in the Union is forever.

What is really sad is how unpatriotic these people really are.

What's the point of being patriotic, if you know that government will only be on your case more? It's like trying to ignore the elephant in the room.

[obdigore]

What's the point of being patriotic, if you know that government will only be on your more? It's like trying to ignore the elephant in the room.

On my what more? What are you trying to say here?

[Deleted]

Sry, fixed.

[obdigore]

So being patriotic is being proud of where you live, and that includes your government. Why do you think that the 'government is on your case more' if you are patriotic?

[Deleted]

So being patriotic is being proud of where you live, and that includes your government. Why do you think that the 'government is on your case more' if you are patriotic?

I mean what the of point being a patriot to a contry, which is being controled by government to a point that's going to monitor whatever you're doing 24/7, force you to buy everything from them, not allow you to "produce" anything for yourself and kill you with a robot if they don't like you.

I say let the people take care of themselves if they desire.

[Kasierith]

I mean what the of point being a patriot to a contry, which is being controled by government to a point that's going to monitor whatever you're doing 24/7, force you to buy everything from them, not allow you to "produce" anything for yourself and kill you with a robot if they don't like you.

I say let the people take care of themselves if they desire.

Coming from a country where the key aspect of citizen-government relations in the past thousand or so years has been "Buckle down and hope the next one beats us less...." its very possible to be patriotic not for your government and your president/czar/dictator/Mongolian overlord or what have you, but for the land, for the people, and for your home. In the end, government is a passing thing, always changing and never constant. Focus your thoughts and good intentions on what truly matters in a country.

[Wildtree]

Coming from a country where the key aspect of citizen-government relations in the past thousand or so years has been "Buckle down and hope the next one beats us less...." its very possible to be patriotic not for your government and your president/czar/dictator/Mongolian overlord or what have you, but for the land, for the people, and for your home. In the end, government is a passing thing, always changing and never constant. Focus your thoughts and good intentions on what truly matters in a country.

I agree with this.
Patriotism has very little, if anything at all, to do with governments.
It has everything to do with the country as a whole... The people, the culture, the architecture, the history, the landscape, the city you live in......

Overall, when I talk with friends on both ends of the planet, be it here in the US, or over in Europe, about the USA and everything that has to do with it.
I say. Look... In terms of history of the countries on this planet, the USA is a very young country. If you transport that into human terms, a country like England, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey etc... Those are grown ups in a range from their mid 40s up to wise old people.
Compared to that, the USA is still barely out of the toddler period. It's still a little child. If you use that metaphor, and look at what the country does, it reflects.
Throwing tantrums when things don't go it's way. Struggling with things no one else understands. That immaturity owned by a child, it shows on so many aspects.
It's still searching for it's own identity, it's own personality. And even that shows times and again..
Ever noticed that you hear every important US politician throughout the times, say either one of this two phrases:
"the greatest nation on earth" "the greatest country on earth"

For a foreigner, for a stranger, these lines kind of catch your attention. You go like. "uhmm.... wait a minute"..
It can be received as arrogance. As if they look down upon you. You are less worth than they are, that's how it comes across.

But truth of the matter is in my opinion, Insecurity. The search for identity isn't just completed yet. Self assurance, self motivation.
Good strategy to find that identity.
Problem is, average joe doesn't realize. Average Joe believes these words as facts.
This is somewhat the case here too.... Some easily deceived Texans, of rather lesser education and/or lack of wisdom to look at the whole picture, believe that they are better than the rest. Not realizing that in fact they are not. Their greatness stems from the Unity with the rest.

[SirRobin]

Coming from a country where the key aspect of citizen-government relations in the past thousand or so years has been "Buckle down and hope the next one beats us less...." its very possible to be patriotic not for your government and your president/czar/dictator/Mongolian overlord or what have you, but for the land, for the people, and for your home. In the end, government is a passing thing, always changing and never constant. Focus your thoughts and good intentions on what truly matters in a country.

Exactly, something the "my way or the highway" crowd just can't seem to fathom anymore. Yet, again, I can't really blame them. Their collective guilt over Junior abusing their trust for years has been dumped on Obama's shoulders. They just can't accept how good they really have it. There is a lot of misplaced resentment in some conservative circles.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 08:26 AM ----------

Also, republicans are probably getting pretty nervous. Not only are we facing this "fiscal cliff," because they decided to give Obama a much harder time than they ever gave Junior. It looks like people actually remember that uncomfortable little fact too. Hell, even Bobby is saying his fellow republicans should "stop being the stupid party."

If they don't abandon this dumbed-down conservatism. They won't have a prayer in 2014.

[Reeve]

I never said it was similar. I was just correcting your statement about what caused the civil war. I get tired of the whole 'Slavery was the cause!'.

Slavery was the biggest cause. You can say it was about states' rights and the south not wanting to have their politics decided for them by an increasingly dominant North, but the biggest bone of contention in that conflict by far was slavery. It's silly to suggest it wasn't.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 02:34 PM ----------

I mean what the of point being a patriot to a contry, which is being controled by government to a point that's going to monitor whatever you're doing 24/7, force you to buy everything from them, not allow you to "produce" anything for yourself and kill you with a robot if they don't like you.

I say let the people take care of themselves if they desire.

Pretty sure I've never noticed the government monitoring me. If they are, which I doubt (beyond a normal level of blanket surveillance like the police watching whether or not I'm speeding), then it hasn't really impacted my life. Certainly, they aren't watching me 24/7.

The only thing the government is forcing me to buy that I might otherwise not buy is car insurance. I already get medical/dental insurance through my employer.

Pretty sure I can and do produce things for myself on a pretty regular basis, and I even get to keep those things!

Government death robots? People must be seeing a very different Texas than I do.

[Gothicshark]

Coming from a country where the key aspect of citizen-government relations in the past thousand or so years has been "Buckle down and hope the next one beats us less...." its very possible to be patriotic not for your government and your president/czar/dictator/Mongolian overlord or what have you, but for the land, for the people, and for your home. In the end, government is a passing thing, always changing and never constant. Focus your thoughts and good intentions on what truly matters in a country.

Whats sad is a Russian understands Patriotism more than most Americans. A land which has a winning history, a government built on freedom. And yes even with the issues today these things are still true.

[Reeve]

Whats sad is a Russian understands Patriotism more than most Americans. A land which has a winning history, a government built on freedom. And yes even with the issues today these things are still true.

Kasierith is pretty smart in general. Don't think her nationality really comes into it.

[Gothicshark]

Kasierith is pretty smart in general. Don't think her nationality really comes into it.

I agree, most Russians I have met in my life are fairly smart. They usually have a rugged sense of self as well, which I kind of like. I also learned to drink from a Russian.

As for the whole we lost so lets leave the union coming from the far right of the US it is just proving to the rest of Americans that they are not Patriotic, and they are sore losers.

As for the Civil War, the main reason for the War. the reason the South left the Union had nothing to do with Slavery, it was because the South lost the Election. This is the same exact reason why this topic has continued. Remember if the war was about slavery the north would have invaded before the south secession, also the first shots where Confederates attacking a Union base. The emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in states that rebelled, and only for the duration of the war. several pro union states legally still had slaves after the war. It was a few years later that slavery was abolished, however true freedom wasn't achieved until the 1960's.

[ddsad2212]

Sorry may I ask what is wrong with the idea of Secession? Not saying there is a chance of it happening, but if the vast majority of people in texas wanted it, why would it be wrong in any respect? I mean how could the US call them selfs the lane of the free and then try to stop it?

[Reeve]

I agree, most Russians I have met in my life are fairly smart. They usually have a rugged sense of self as well, which I kind of like. I also learned to drink from a Russian.

As for the whole we lost so lets leave the union coming from the far right of the US it is just proving to the rest of Americans that they are not Patriotic, and they are sore losers.

As for the Civil War, the main reason for the War. the reason the South left the Union had nothing to do with Slavery, it was because the South lost the Election. This is the same exact reason why this topic has continued. Remember if the war was about slavery the north would have invaded before the south secession, also the first shots where Confederates attacking a Union base. The emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in states that rebelled, and only for the duration of the war. several pro union states legally still had slaves after the war. It was a few years later that slavery was abolished, however true freedom wasn't achieved until the 1960's.

The South left the Union because Lincoln was elected, from the Republicans, which were the abolitionist party. They could see the writing on the wall with regards to slavery, and it had been an issue that had dominated politics for the previous several decades. Just because the South rebelled before the North could abolish slavery doesn't mean the South didn't see it was going to happen. Cloaking the Civil War in language of states' rights is just a way of obscuring which states' right this was really about. As for the Emancipation Proclamation, it was a wartime strategy, no doubt about it. But it's pretty clear what the Republicans wanted to do, as witnessed by the passage of the 13th amendment even before the war's end.

[Gothicshark]

The South left the Union because Lincoln was elected, from the Republicans, which were the abolitionist party. They could see the writing on the wall with regards to slavery, and it had been an issue that had dominated politics for the previous several decades. Just because the South rebelled before the North could abolish slavery doesn't mean the South didn't see it was going to happen. Cloaking the Civil War in language of states' rights is just a way of obscuring which states' right this was really about. As for the Emancipation Proclamation, it was a wartime strategy, no doubt about it. But it's pretty clear what the Republicans wanted to do, as witnessed by the passage of the 13th amendment even before the war's end.

Abolution of slavery was a hot issue for years, and one of the reasons the South feared the power of the North. But that isn't why the Majority of Southerners agreed to leave the union, remember only richest 10% of the white population owned slaves. The rest of the white southern population where no more for or against slavery than the rest of the population at the time. They did however fear the power of the North.