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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Shadowbathed's Avatar
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    My "Guide" to Frost Dk's in 5.0.5

    Well, I did it. I made a video guide summing up how I see Dks working. Feel free to watch it really quick, and leave questions that you need clarification on. I have played a Dk for over 3 years now, and I have a pretty strong feeling I know how they work. So ya, please watch, leave a comment on the forum, and like it too if it helped please?



    P.S. Sorry for the Audio fuzz, mic isn't amazing.

  2. #2
    Several things that make this so wrong:
    1. PL is amazing in which for any single target situation you should take it.
    2. Death's Advance is amazing for PVE and I take it over the other two because a lot of these fights have movement based things that detract from our deeps.
    3. You are completely wrong for using RC in either 2h or dw frost. If you've ever ran any sims, which I'm definitely seeing you haven't, you would see that RE provides the most runes and is pretty much essential for dw. So taking anything else is a loss to your dps.
    4. You also pick up dark simulacrum glyph since there's actual some things that we can DS in these raids, for right now it's really only spirit kings on your MCed raid members.
    5. 2h sims above dw currently when played correctly.
    6. stat priority for 2h: hit to cap, exp to cap, haste > crit > mastery
    7. stat priority for dw: hit to cap, exp to cap, mastery > haste > crit
    8. Your priority list is completely wrong for dw and you seem to lack the actual knowledge of the frost spec.
    9. as Dw you never use OB unless you absolutely have to. FS should always be used on KM procs whenever possible.
    10. No offense but make sure you actually know what you're talking about before you go posting stuff like this. This video isn't really helping the community at all whenever you're leading people in the wrong direction who come to this site for help.

  3. #3
    Mechagnome Shadowbathed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uspoonybard View Post
    Several things that make this so wrong:
    1. PL is amazing in which for any single target situation you should take it.
    2. Death's Advance is amazing for PVE and I take it over the other two because a lot of these fights have movement based things that detract from our deeps.
    3. You are completely wrong for using RC in either 2h or dw frost. If you've ever ran any sims, which I'm definitely seeing you haven't, you would see that RE provides the most runes and is pretty much essential for dw. So taking anything else is a loss to your dps.
    4. You also pick up dark simulacrum glyph since there's actual some things that we can DS in these raids, for right now it's really only spirit kings on your MCed raid members.
    5. 2h sims above dw currently when played correctly.
    6. stat priority for 2h: hit to cap, exp to cap, haste > crit > mastery
    7. stat priority for dw: hit to cap, exp to cap, mastery > haste > crit
    8. Your priority list is completely wrong for dw and you seem to lack the actual knowledge of the frost spec.
    9. as Dw you never use OB unless you absolutely have to. FS should always be used on KM procs whenever possible.
    10. No offense but make sure you actually know what you're talking about before you go posting stuff like this. This video isn't really helping the community at all whenever you're leading people in the wrong direction who come to this site for help.
    I'm sorry you rely on Sims. I have used this for a very long time and believe it or not its suiting me very well.

    Do not insult my "Knowledge" of my class. You seem to think differently, but that is crap that you never use OB in DW. I've played Dks for 3 years. I'm not saying I'm god at them, but everytime i compete against my friends, or H Geared players and I'm in normal gear, I show them up and I've never had issues with my spec.

    You need to stop being rude about this.

    Sims is not real life testing. I've tested this spec for the entirety of 5.0 and I've always been top AoE - Against Ele Shamans - and since Frost Strike is used more in DW why would you not want the additional haste? The fact that half the stuff you mention I did cover - such as the reforge - even though I said them backwards, but just was stating that those two are the top stats for the spec - just makes you seem attention seeking or troll-like to me. I am not forcing people to follow my spec either. I'm simply stating that "Hey, this is a pretty nice spec that when played right is very good."

    So instead of giving me reasons on why this was bad, and saying that I don't know anything about Dks, feel free to ask why I chose certain talents over others.

    Anywho, thanks for seeing the video at least. As I said though, it was my first guide. I was nervous and may have had some errors, but I know a lot more about Dks than most.

    Also, I'm not going to let you get to me since you only have 2 posts on MMO... so figuring you are just a troll since half the stuff you say doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Shadowbathed; 2012-10-13 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbathed View Post
    I'm sorry you rely on Sims. I have used this for a very long time and believe it or not its suiting me very well.

    Do not insult my "Knowledge" of my class. You seem to think differently, but that is crap that you never use OB in DW. I've played Dks for 3 years. I'm not saying I'm god at them, but everytime i compete against my friends, or H Geared players and I'm in normal gear, I show them up and I've never had issues with my spec.

    You need to stop being rude about this.

    Sims is not real life testing. I've tested this spec for the entirety of 5.0 and I've always been top AoE - Against Ele Shamans - and since Frost Strike is used more in DW why would you not want the additional haste? The fact that half the stuff you mention I did cover - such as the reforge - even though I said them backwards, but just was stating that those two are the top stats for the spec - just makes you seem attention seeking or troll-like to me. I am not forcing people to follow my spec either. I'm simply stating that "Hey, this is a pretty nice spec that when played right is very good."

    So instead of giving me reasons on why this was bad, and saying that I don't know anything about Dks, feel free to ask why I chose certain talents over others.

    Anywho, thanks for seeing the video at least. As I said though, it was my first guide. I was nervous and may have had some errors, but I know a lot more about Dks than most.

    Also, I'm not going to let you get to me since you only have 2 posts on MMO... so figuring you are just a troll since half the stuff you say doesn't make sense.
    I'm not saying this with the intention of being obsessive, but isn't it a little ironic that you call on Spoony not to be rude and are then rude to him yourself?

    For the record, he isn't a troll. He comes from a well respected raiding guild and is a player that I affirm as parsing consistently. Even if none of this were true, why would you attack the person rather than what they are saying? You'll note that none of us have attempted to attack your character, achievements, etc.

    Now, moving on to some of what's been said thus far:

    -Spoony is correct in that you do not Obliterate very much as DW Frost. DW Frost currently relies much more on spamming Howling Blast and spending Killing Machine procs on Frost Strike. This isn't something I'm "speculating" at either, it is what we have confirmed as being the highest DPS playstyle for DW. There are certain occasions where Obliterate might be used in the DW priority, but they are few and far between when compared to something like 2h's playstyle.

    -It is great that your playstyle works best for you. I don't think anyone wants to attack that. The fact is though, that WoW is a very math oriented game. There are theoretical maximum attainable results that each spec is capable of. That is what the majority of players are going to want in anything that displays itself as a "guide". They'll want stat weights, priorities, rotations, gemming suggestions, etc.
    None of this is to disparage the effort you've made here; I encourage you to continue theorycrafting and sharing your knowledge with the community. Just be aware that you will probably need math to back up a lot of the theory you are coming up with. The Elitist Jerks Frost Thread is a good place to start if you're looking for basic math. I would also suggest browsing through some of the more popular DK blogs.

    -Sims are not real life testing, this is true. What they are is a computer attempting to play at a near perfect level after having been programmed by a very human player. Thus the theoretical maximum results you're seeing from sims is results we are all capable of if we play at the sim's level. DKs such as Lamperouqe, Semmi, Ganaza and Autopsy proved this with the world record parses back in Cataclysm. I am sure some of them will continue to do so in MoP.

    -What Spoony has said about stat weights is accurate. You could theoretically argue a bit about talents, but the majority of math agrees with him on Plague Leech for single target and Runic Corruption not being optimal for Frost. Also, consider that Death Knights are one of the few classes without direct mobility improvements outside of Unholy Presence (which is irrelevant to Frost)- this is one of the many reasons why Death's Advance is an incredible PvE and PvP talent, usually outpacing Chilblains in the majority of encounters.

    Anyways, try not to let negative feedback upset you or discourage you. Your intent is good, so stick with that and get more familiar with the math behind the theorycraft. Good luck.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbathed View Post
    I'm sorry you rely on Sims. I have used this for a very long time and believe it or not its suiting me very well.

    Do not insult my "Knowledge" of my class. You seem to think differently, but that is crap that you never use OB in DW. I've played Dks for 3 years. I'm not saying I'm god at them, but everytime i compete against my friends, or H Geared players and I'm in normal gear, I show them up and I've never had issues with my spec.

    You need to stop being rude about this.

    Sims is not real life testing. I've tested this spec for the entirety of 5.0 and I've always been top AoE - Against Ele Shamans - and since Frost Strike is used more in DW why would you not want the additional haste? The fact that half the stuff you mention I did cover - such as the reforge - even though I said them backwards, but just was stating that those two are the top stats for the spec - just makes you seem attention seeking or troll-like to me. I am not forcing people to follow my spec either. I'm simply stating that "Hey, this is a pretty nice spec that when played right is very good."

    So instead of giving me reasons on why this was bad, and saying that I don't know anything about Dks, feel free to ask why I chose certain talents over others.

    Anywho, thanks for seeing the video at least. As I said though, it was my first guide. I was nervous and may have had some errors, but I know a lot more about Dks than most.

    Also, I'm not going to let you get to me since you only have 2 posts on MMO... so figuring you are just a troll since half the stuff you say doesn't make sense.
    Sim are great things to use to see what's better and what's not and is an incredible guideline to looking at what's right. I'm sure my plentiful of ranks makes me relying on sims so bad.

    I've played a dk for just as long, and if you actually read my comment I said you never use OB unless you absolutely have to, which is true for DW in 5.0, because FS gets buff from ToT and you always want to use KM procs on FS.

    I've also tested this plenty of times myself and definitely know the general idea of both 2h and dw. You want mastery above all because pretty much all your damage is frost damage and as played back in 4.3 the masterfrost playstyle had the same stat priority back then as it does now, but it's more of a "perfected" masterfrost style of play.

    I'm a longtime poster EJ and a pretty decent contributor to the #Acherus channel at sonofalich so you mentioning me having 2 posts on MMO, which were solely because of recruitment threads, doesn't strengthen your argument. What I'm trying to get at is if you want to post something like a guide for other people is that you should try and actually contribute to the development of the community and preparing them in the right direction of the dps dk. Just make sure you actually go in and research your stuff and know what's right and what's wrong. A lot of the talents are situational per fight I agree on that, but some are not. No frost dk should ever take rolling blood ever. PL provides a great single target boost and UB helps with AOE situations. DA is such a clutch talent when it comes to fights like elegon, stone guardians, feng, spirit kings, and will since there are parts in those fights where you have to move a decent amount of space. So that's 5/6 fights where you say a pvp talent is useful.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome Shadowbathed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    I'm not saying this with the intention of being obsessive, but isn't it a little ironic that you call on Spoony not to be rude and are then rude to him yourself?

    For the record, he isn't a troll. He comes from a well respected raiding guild and is a player that I affirm as parsing consistently. Even if none of this were true, why would you attack the person rather than what they are saying? You'll note that none of us have attempted to attack your character, achievements, etc.

    Now, moving on to some of what's been said thus far:

    -Spoony is correct in that you do not Obliterate very much as DW Frost. DW Frost currently relies much more on spamming Howling Blast and spending Killing Machine procs on Frost Strike. This isn't something I'm "speculating" at either, it is what we have confirmed as being the highest DPS playstyle for DW. There are certain occasions where Obliterate might be used in the DW priority, but they are few and far between when compared to something like 2h's playstyle.

    -It is great that your playstyle works best for you. I don't think anyone wants to attack that. The fact is though, that WoW is a very math oriented game. There are theoretical maximum attainable results that each spec is capable of. That is what the majority of players are going to want in anything that displays itself as a "guide". They'll want stat weights, priorities, rotations, gemming suggestions, etc.
    None of this is to disparage the effort you've made here; I encourage you to continue theorycrafting and sharing your knowledge with the community. Just be aware that you will probably need math to back up a lot of the theory you are coming up with. The Elitist Jerks Frost Thread is a good place to start if you're looking for basic math. I would also suggest browsing through some of the more popular DK blogs.

    -Sims are not real life testing, this is true. What they are is a computer attempting to play at a near perfect level after having been programmed by a very human player. Thus the theoretical maximum results you're seeing from sims is results we are all capable of if we play at the sim's level. DKs such as Lamperouqe, Semmi, Ganaza and Autopsy proved this with the world record parses back in Cataclysm. I am sure some of them will continue to do so in MoP.

    -What Spoony has said about stat weights is accurate. You could theoretically argue a bit about talents, but the majority of math agrees with him on Plague Leech for single target and Runic Corruption not being optimal for Frost. Also, consider that Death Knights are one of the few classes without direct mobility improvements outside of Unholy Presence (which is irrelevant to Frost)- this is one of the many reasons why Death's Advance is an incredible PvE and PvP talent, usually outpacing Chilblains in the majority of encounters.

    Anyways, try not to let negative feedback upset you or discourage you. Your intent is good, so stick with that and get more familiar with the math behind the theorycraft. Good luck.
    Thank you. I wish he had approached the issues he felt as you did. I was just upset at him calling me out saying I was not knowing my class. I was nervous though. So while I said the stat orders backwards I did mean what he listed. I glanced over the Death's Advance passive, but I still feel that Chillbails will be best when slowing is necessary. I'll look over it and update it in the future. But I was starting to be nervous as I knew if I said something wrong I'd feel terrible when people call me bad.

    To Spoony - I do apologize, you just made me upset because I interpreted what you said as calling me a bad Dk and not knowing my class at all. I do know this stuff (Rotation and Priority) passively, but I just need to write it down beforehand and not shoot it when I'm like "Hell look. Free time."

    I'll put more work into my next guides, but as for now I do apologize. Thanks for the feedback you two.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbathed View Post
    I glanced over the Death's Advance passive, but I still feel that Chillbails will be best when slowing is necessary.
    I'm not disputing this, but lets look at three factors:

    1. How many fights can you currently think of that require or are greatly helped by a utility such as slow? I can think of one: Will of the Emperor.

    2. How many situations that require a utility such as slow, could also have another class bring that utility instead of the Frost DK? There's no doubt Frost can do it pretty well, but so can a number of other classes. Hunters and Shamans are two great examples here.

    3. How many situations can you think of where a sprint would be invaluable? For me, the answer is: Each and every encounter which requires any form of movement. I cannot tell you how powerful Death's Advance has been for the class as a whole. The fact that it makes you immune to slowing effects is just icing on the cake.

    All of these are factors one must take into consideration when evaluating the worth of a talent- assuming it can't be mathed out like Tier 75 or Plague Leech vs Unholy Blight.

    Good luck with your future endeavours in WoW.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Shadowbathed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    I'm not disputing this, but lets look at three factors:

    1. How many fights can you currently think of that require or are greatly helped by a utility such as slow? I can think of one: Will of the Emperor.

    2. How many situations that require a utility such as slow, could also have another class bring that utility instead of the Frost DK? There's no doubt Frost can do it pretty well, but so can a number of other classes. Hunters and Shamans are two great examples here.

    3. How many situations can you think of where a sprint would be invaluable? For me, the answer is: Each and every encounter which requires any form of movement. I cannot tell you how powerful Death's Advance has been for the class as a whole. The fact that it makes you immune to slowing effects is just icing on the cake.

    All of these are factors one must take into consideration when evaluating the worth of a talent- assuming it can't be mathed out like Tier 75 or Plague Leech vs Unholy Blight.

    Good luck with your future endeavours in WoW.
    Thank you for enlightening me a bit. I will put a lot more thought into my next guide.

  9. #9
    DA is better for pretty much every fight that's been released so far. Only one I'd dispute is for Feng (H) and Will (Both) which the need for chillbains can be very useful if you don't have other snares. However there are lots of other sources for slows i.e. CoEx from locks is fantastic.

  10. #10
    I'm still confused about Plague Leech. Should you be using it every minute with Outbreak, or every cooldown?

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Will take a look at this later and give some feedback, as soon as Will 25H die!!

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by flashur View Post
    I'm still confused about Plague Leech. Should you be using it every minute with Outbreak, or every cooldown?
    I wanna know this too

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by flashur View Post
    I'm still confused about Plague Leech. Should you be using it every minute with Outbreak, or every cooldown?
    You can also use it with Unholy Blight, if not necessary for any AoE.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    You can also use it with Unholy Blight, if not necessary for any AoE.
    No you cannot, as PL and UB are on the same talent tier.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    No you cannot, as PL and UB are on the same talent tier.
    Hrm. Somehow I overlooked that. Silly me. Not sure what I was thinking, then.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by flashur View Post
    I'm still confused about Plague Leech. Should you be using it every minute with Outbreak, or every cooldown?
    Don't quote me on this but I believe you should wait on an outbreak most of the time. Regarding outbreak on cd, I also am curious if you can use it with a rime and use an unholy rune for a PS I can see it being a net loss, but it would maximize the usage of PL. Any ideas?

  17. #17
    Deleted
    I read on Noxxic that you should use Plague Leech when you have Outbreak avail

  18. #18
    EJ's thread has always said that Plague Leech should be used on cooldown, so once with Outbreak, and then once where you have to manually apply the diseases later. But I'm starting to be wary of how few and far between updates to their forum guides are. However Icy Veins says the same thing. I'm personally rather used to using it every 30 seconds.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhandz View Post
    EJ's thread has always said that Plague Leech should be used on cooldown, so once with Outbreak, and then once where you have to manually apply the diseases later. But I'm starting to be wary of how few and far between updates to their forum guides are. However Icy Veins says the same thing. I'm personally rather used to using it every 30 seconds.
    If you use glyph of outbreak, you always have outbreak available except at opening of a fight. Apply manually at open, use PL, then outbreak. Rinse and repeat. With the Frost DK's runic power generation, it's easy to apply outbreak on every PL CD.

  20. #20
    Dang OP is terrible at constructive criticism...Also 3 years isn't long enough for you because using KM procs for FS is always right..look at your passive with DW. There are quite a few things to point out that you said were just wrong and some that really wont change much but still 90% of people wont take it. Uspoonybard was pretty much dead on just a few things that were a ta wrong.
    I don't age I level up...

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