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  1. #81
    Execution vs Depth. WoW fights usually don't have too much depth, since the fights have a set of very strict mechanics, that leads to specific tactics needing to be executed. WoW fights becomes more and more about execution, at least compared to Vanilla and GW2.
    Well, depends on the fight. There are a number of fights where there is exactly one way to do it and it never really varies and no one really reacts to a whole lot. (Patchwerk, Chimaeron, etc)

    While hard hitting bosses with tons of health might seem like a lazy way to make boss fights, it does mean you can get away with being a little more chaotic than in your everyday WoW raid.
    On the other hand, there are a lot of fights that are still chaotic even with the execution-demanding mechanics involved. Many of these fights - in contrast to the ones I mentioned above - are fights that most players seem to agree were both entertaining and challenging. (Damn near every heroic Tier 11 fight except...Chimaeron and Atramedes? H-Lich King, H-Anub'Arak. Yes, I'm using really recent examples! Here, Razorgore! There's an older one.)

    Or put another way, execution and "chaotic" aren't mutually exclusive concepts. A good PvE developer shouldn't feel the need to abandon mechanics and simply stack on numbers (and thus, gear checks) to make content interesting.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-11-12 at 08:00 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    For one, this (should be) against the philosophy of the game. We've been told time and again that "more skill" was the answer to everything, not more stats. The idea that they cannot create more challenging content without simply stacking more numbers up is pretty disappointing. (Not saying it's true, just replying to your previous assertion on the matter.)
    Ive said this many times before in this thread. The increasing difficulty of the dungeon will get to a point where no matter how much skill you have you cant get further. Anet did make dungeons that rely on skill. And they will continue to release those types of dungeons and events. This is a different type of dungeon designed with progressive difficulty in mind for those that want the challege. For those that dont want the challenge they can still do the dungeon. They just have to reset it after it gets too hard for them. Anyone can do this dungeon in any kind of level 80 gear. The same cant be said for a WoW raid. If a group of level 90's in greens cant defeat the first boss in MV they arnt going to beat any others. If that same group had blues and purples and defeats the first boss then they can prolly beat the others.

    If a group of fresh 80's in blues and greens can get to the 3rd difficulty in Fractals of the Mists then they can just reset the dungeon and do it again. If a group of 80's in full exotics can get to the 5th difficulty then they can reset the dungeon and do it again. If a group in all greens gets to the 10th difficulty they can reset the dungeon and do it again.

    not sure what point im trying to make anymore but i hope i made it. (You dont need gear to do dungeons in GW2. Its only hinted that a gear type might aid you at higher difficulty levels of a single new dungeon, You do not need this gear to beat the dungeon as it just repeats itself and has no end. 9 total paths all are beatable in blue 80 gear. Again you guys are making somthing out of nothing.)

  3. #83
    The increasing difficulty of the dungeon will get to a point where no matter how much skill you have you cant get further
    Your second sentence is why people are not happy about the idea. That should NOT have been the path they took to create more "challenge".

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Ok, two things:

    For one, this (should be) against the philosophy of the game. We've been told time and again that "more skill" was the answer to everything, not more stats. The idea that they cannot create more challenging content without simply stacking more numbers up is pretty disappointing. (Not saying it's true, just replying to your previous assertion on the matter.)

    Second, saying that the only difference between one raid and another in a game like WoW is upping the % of things is silly. A fight like H-Nefarian is significantly tougher than H-Chimaeron simply because the mechanics and organization are much, much more involved, not because one fight has bigger-er numbers. It should be a disappointment to you to think that A.Net's only idea for making content more challenging is to go against the philosophy of the game and throw more numbers at things. =(

    Differences in fights like that is what we SHOULD be seeing as their big ideas.

    Bottom line is that you cannot have it both ways. You can't support ArenaNet on a change like this and claim to also support the philosophy of GW2. (This is all assuming that even half of what we're discussing here is true.)
    You are comparing two different fights in a heroic raid, rather than the same fight over the normal and heroic raid. You are right, H Chimaeron and H Nefarian are quite different in difficulty and strategy. Why wouldn't they be? They aren't the same thing at all. However, aside from numbers and 1-2 more abilities (pretty sure it was 2), N Chimaeron is not that much different than H Chimaeron.

    I won't claim to know what their intent is with this infinite dungeon. It sounds like a lot of fun. Not only do you get a chance to see how far you can go before you need bigger numbers, but you also have the bragging rights of "I made it through 50 runs without any of this Ascended gear!" or whatever. Take a look at WoW and the MoP dungeon scheme. You have normals, heroics, and challenge heroics. Nothing in them changes except for numbers, yet people do them, be it for bragging rights or some cool rewards (transmog gear).

    This is a way they can pander to the crowd on quite a few sides. Those who just want the gear rewards will likely do it for whatever of the items they want. Those that want to flex their epeen will do it as far as they can so they can brag about it. Those that want to just go about it casually and just play it every now and then can.

  5. #85
    I dunno. I'm seeing an awful lot of rationalization in this thread. Concepts that were mercilessly attacked for being "WoW-like" before are now being treated as if they were inevitable all along, or acceptable ways of introducing new content.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Your second sentence is why people are not happy about the idea. That should NOT have been the path they took to create more "challenge".
    Ok, so, every time you clear a route mobs get New moves? They have this tech in already, but this can't be infinite!! By round 5 everything would have 5 more abilities ontop of what they had, if they wanted this to go on indefinently there would be so many abilities going off at the later lvs weaker PCs would get demolished, so stats is clearly another option which makes things harder and is easily accomplished.

    That being said please tell me where it says they will gain no abilities ever... Cause it seems like they want to throw EVERYTHING fancy they have into this dungeon, so wouldn't that include skill unlocks?
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    I dont know about you but i remember a few games that have done this. Lets see, Diablo II, Diablo 3, Diablo 3 again (Monster Power), World of warcraft (come on man what do you think the difference between normal and heroic dungeons or normal and heroic raids are? You up the %'s and add 1 or two mechanics if that.)
    This breaks down for two really important reasons:

    1. Diablo and World of Warcraft are stat based games. One is supposed to be excited the +100 sword with 80Arp/50+ Str/Agl 90 hit for 1.5k on a target of 1800 armor/4% dodge. Blah blah blah.

    Guild Wars 2 is not a linear stat determinant game to the same degree. The combat isn't even predicated on a series of dice rolls as Diablo and World of Warcraft are wholly.

    The comparisons of differing gameplay models and reason of play is inappropriate.

    Diablo and WoW are doing it 100% right in their respective gameplay models. That is ideally why a player would play those games- for the statistical crunch.

    2. W/R/T World of Warcraft encounter design scales in complexity & interaction as well as numbers output. An encounter from it's most simple-- a kobold in Elywen Forest to more complex ones like Yogg-Saron, are both linear and progressive in difficulty.

    Diablo only scales output/input after a given threshold. The gameplay being designed around a farm process for small % differences in player damage, defense, etc. The actual difficulty of content will expire but the chase [so to speak] is perpetual. Even long after the process of gear chase yields satisfactory results- completion, essentially.

    We can see that model at work in several ARPGs from Diablo 2 onward in the genre. Good, clear examples would be like Titan Quest or Torchlight 1.


    Lastly, it's not reasonable to assume because other games have linear progression via output/input increases players are okay with it in the GW2. Maybe Sally Standsinfire hated that aspect in Diablo 2. And it's no more okay in GW2 than it was in D2 for our proverbial Sally.

    Granted that would be an irrational impulse of Sally since she is essentially playing the wrong game type for her in D2. Nonetheless. We can't assume Sally, Billy or Joey are automatically okay with the introduction of such a model in GW2 because some other game(s) did/does it too.

    The tldr to "other games do it too!" is; so what?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Ive said this many times before in this thread. The increasing difficulty of the dungeon will get to a point where no matter how much skill you have you cant get further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Your second sentence is why people are not happy about the idea. That should NOT have been the path they took to create more "challenge".
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I dunno. I'm seeing an awful lot of rationalization in this thread. Concepts that were mercilessly attacked for being "WoW-like" before are now being treated as if they were inevitable all along, or acceptable ways of introducing new content.
    I tend to agree. Isn't locking content behind gear something they specifically said would never happen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinoashi View Post
    He doesn't need a source to know that he pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Ok, so, every time you clear a route mobs get New moves? They have this tech in already, but this can't be infinite!! By round 5 everything would have 5 more abilities ontop of what they had, if they wanted this to go on indefinently there would be so many abilities going off at the later lvs weaker PCs would get demolished, so stats is clearly another option which makes things harder and is easily accomplished.
    Then maybe this dungeon type isn't a good design decision or GW2, hhmmmm?

    You know that thing I have to repeat in every thread due to the sheer density of the average video gamer; bad design is exemplified by conflicting systems.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Then maybe this dungeon type isn't a good design decision or GW2, hhmmmm?

    You know that thing I have to repeat in every thread due to the sheer density of the average video gamer; bad design is exemplified by conflicting systems.
    I personally think it sounds like a great decision and so long as the armors extra power is only in effect while within the instance is a great idea and i see only good things for it....
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    They will alienate a big part of their playerbase if they do this.
    And possibly bring a larger portion of players that previously quit, back to the game. Character progression and the feeling of growing in power is way more important to a larger playerbase than spending 2 hours farming and being done forever with gear at max level.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    I personally think it sounds like a great decision and so long as the armors extra power is only in effect while within the instance is a great idea and i see only good things for it....
    So let me get this correct; in your opinion, it's a great idea to add post level cap, linear gear progression in the Guild Wars franchise?

    You are expressing a viewpoint by which you are saying there is no philosophical or design contradiction or hypocrisy in this design mode. Yes?

    This is what you are saying flatly.

  13. #93
    Durz, where are you getting the "only in new dungeon" idea? Because I've seen zero mention of that anywhere. What I do have is it comes from the dungeon, and it's explicitly stated as "more powerful than exotics".

    And to anyone else that wants to point out "only slightly"? Let me pull an equivalent response here, and why that answer of yours can go to hell: It's "only slightly" different between t12 and t13 gear. Or t13 and ht13 gear. "Slight" is still escalation. And escalation in a system praised for not having vertical progression is a major slap in the face.

    That ArenaNet would appear to go against this is valid reason to be upset. And for MarkyMark over there to shift to onus onto players for reading something completely contrary to why we play the game in the first place? Yeah, that's not professional in any environment. "It's his personal account" means nothing as a developer, he's still speaking (as a condescending prick) from a standpoint of a developer for the company itself. That stuff isn't cool for Blizzard (Jay "Fuck That Guy" Wilson), it's not cool for anyone.
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  14. #94
    I personally think it sounds like a great decision and so long as the armors extra power is only in effect while within the instance is a great idea and i see only good things for it....
    It doesn't matter if the gear is only good in the instance. Not sure why folks are seeing that as some sort of "out", it's totally irrelevant. (Edit: If it's even true.)

    I don't want to be "the dramatic guy" here...but frankly the principles and (in my mind) potential of the game was about the only things keeping me logging in. My feelings about a lot of the existing mechanics are no secret, but I kept clinging to what I saw as sound principles and a gameplay system with a lot of potential. This here, this sort of a last-straw for me, I gotta say.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-11-12 at 10:07 PM.

  15. #95
    His Name sounds german...

    Edit.
    ah, Kerstein is german community rep. this explains it.
    Last edited by Corros; 2012-11-12 at 10:23 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    And to anyone else that wants to point out "only slightly"? Let me pull an equivalent response here, and why that answer of yours can go to hell: It's "only slightly" different between t12 and t13 gear. Or t13 and ht13 gear. "Slight" is still escalation. And escalation in a system praised for not having vertical progression is a major slap in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It doesn't matter if the gear is only good in the instance. Not sure why folks are seeing that as some sort of "out", it's totally irrelevant. (Edit: If it's even true.)
    All of this. Both rock solid posts.

    On a personal note: interesting watching all this unfold today. Some people don't seem to get as to why this should offend if it ascended armor turns out to be linear gear progression. They are in it for the "fun", so to speak.

    Very depressing.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sojou View Post
    And possibly bring a larger portion of players that previously quit, back to the game. Character progression and the feeling of growing in power is way more important to a larger playerbase than spending 2 hours farming and being done forever with gear at max level.
    There are games that do, and will always perform better, power progression (or your gear treadmills) better than ArenaNet games. Those folks who who come back will only leave again after a week. It will be a huge mistake on ANets part if they try to cater to that kind playerbase. Then you are competing directly with the wows/rifts/swtor/eq2 of the world and that has proven to be a largely failed endeavor unless you are World of Warcraft.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    So let me get this correct; in your opinion, it's a great idea to add post level cap, linear gear progression in the Guild Wars franchise?

    You are expressing a viewpoint by which you are saying there is no philosophical or design contradiction or hypocrisy in this design mode. Yes?

    This is what you are saying flatly.
    No what I'm saying is if they allow gear progression for that ONE instance and that progressed gear is only in that ONE instance it's great, if its NOT for that ONE instance I want none of it at all.

    @Kel I heard it thrown around the official forums by a few people and am just hopin it's true...
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    No what I'm saying is if they allow gear progression for that ONE instance and that progressed gear is only in that ONE instance it's great, if its NOT for that ONE instance I want none of it at all.
    So as long as it's ONE instance, it's okay to have bad design [contradictory] or do a 180 on the premise of the series. Gotcha.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    So as long as it's ONE instance, it's okay to have bad design [contradictory] or do a 180 on the premise of the series. Gotcha.
    They want GW2 to have something for everyone, and so far they really only are lacking in the mindless gear treadmill runners, throw them a bone, give them 1 stupid instance where they can get infusions in gear that you get better ones at higher lv so they can feel like they're constantly stronger, and how they have set the instance up all they'd need to do is throw more dungeon segments and boss fights in there to keep them happy.

    I personally think the dungeon would be fun regardless of if it had infinite scalin or not, but think it'd be more fun for some if they get a carrot held infront of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

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