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  1. #1

    The new Invocation Change! - Build 16208

    Invocation

    Old: Completing an Evocation causes you to deal 25% increased spell damage for 40 sec.
    New: While at full mana, and for 40 sec afterward, you deal 25% increased spell damage.

    Woah! Now this is a change I can get behind! I can't even fathom how much this will help on fights like Heroic Spirit kings. Although I am proud that running invocation requires some really skillful timing at the moment to master on certain fights... it really can be troublesome.

    I feel like this is a huge quality of life help and more importantly... finally gives me a REASON to even look at my mana bar or use mana gems as a fire mage!!!

    *Shangalar's clarification edit for new people who see this thread: this change has since been reverted back to exactly how it is on live. We're expecting a different solution. Sorry for intruding Stache
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2012-11-11 at 12:06 AM.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    I think it's a pvp nerf? Or perhaps pvpers use incanter's ward...

    Rune of power change is probably because barely anyone uses it.
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    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    Woah! Now this is a change I can get behind! I can't even fathom how much this will help on fights like Heroic Spirit kings.
    Just curious to know what they mean by 'full mana' ?

    I think it may just be a quality of life change - evocate before the pull instead of having to do it over and over.

    The removal of the Rune cooldowns also interests me.

  4. #4
    Guys i think it means if your at full mana it will be like a infinite long buff but as soon as you lose 1 mana it will put the 40 sec timer on.

  5. #5
    This is pretty much the final nail in the coffin for Arcane (which already cannot use the other two talents).

    Arcane is now penalized even further since at least previously if you finished an evocate at sub-100% mana, you would still get the buff.
    Now? Well, your fucked!

    Its almost as if Blizz wants Arcane to die a painful death in MoP.

    Tbh, this change looks like it was made by someone who only plays a frost mage. Which doesn't surprise me, given the "chosen" mage spec of MoP.

  6. #6
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Hmmm. Interesting. Very interesting. I am happy in the sense Blizzard, while they are silent, are making an effort to move things around, but let us see how this works out, eh?
    Battletag: Rhaegas#1141
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Just curious to know what they mean by 'full mana' ?

    I think it may just be a quality of life change - evocate before the pull instead of having to do it over and over.

    The removal of the Rune cooldowns also interests me.

    I agree that it is a quality of life change. Evoing over and over, and hoping your tank starts the countdown as soon as it finishes so you still have time to prepot, very annoying.

  8. #8
    Well it's certainly not a nerf, because which ever way you look at it:

    If you complete an Evocate then 99 times out of 100 you are at full mana.
    However, you can easily be at full mana without having to evocate.

    More importantly, think prepull countdown, flying around questing, most of the time you are full on your mana before you enter combat. After entering combat you can use a mana gem with the glyph to get the buff. Also alter time will help you sweeze a little bit more out of the buff while you use it in accordance with your other buffs.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Hmmm. Interesting. Very interesting. I am happy in the sense Blizzard, while they are silent, are making an effort to move things around, but let us see how this works out, eh?
    If you are referring to the greater discussion about how absolutely pathetic and sh!tty the level 90 talents are... this 'change' (plus the RoP one) doesn't actually change a damn thing or address a single concern that the 1000s of mages have brought up.


    I am 100% certain these changes are only being made so Lhivera can go troll the big thread on the DD forums and point to the patch notes and say "LOOK! THEY FIXED YOUR ISSUES NOW STFU!"

  10. #10
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    This is pretty much the final nail in the coffin for Arcane (which already cannot use the other two talents).

    Arcane is now penalized even further since at least previously if you finished an evocate at sub-100% mana, you would still get the buff.
    Now? Well, your fucked!

    Its almost as if Blizz wants Arcane to die a painful death in MoP.

    Tbh, this change looks like it was made by someone who only plays a frost mage. Which doesn't surprise me, given the "chosen" mage spec of MoP.
    How is this bad for Arcane? I haven't played since WotLK as I HATE Arcane so excuse my ignorance, but isn't Arcane about managing high amounts of Mana? And this only promotes this further by making it so every time you hit 100% (you could hit evo at 80% mana, let a tick go through and re get the buff if I read this correctly, no more waiting for the 5 second channel). If I do read this right, this is now the instant go-to talent.
    Battletag: Rhaegas#1141
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  11. #11
    This might make mana gems worth something again as well.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by snatat View Post
    Guys i think it means if your at full mana it will be like a infinite long buff but as soon as you lose 1 mana it will put the 40 sec timer on.
    This is what I'm thinking too. it will be a passsive buff that's always up until you use mana, then the 40second countdown begins.


    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    This is pretty much the final nail in the coffin for Arcane (which already cannot use the other two talents).

    Arcane is now penalized even further since at least previously if you finished an evocate at sub-100% mana, you would still get the buff.
    Now? Well, your fucked!

    Its almost as if Blizz wants Arcane to die a painful death in MoP.

    Tbh, this change looks like it was made by someone who only plays a frost mage. Which doesn't surprise me, given the "chosen" mage spec of MoP.
    This isn't a nerf to arcane, as long as you always evocate back up to full (which you should be doing regardless.)

  13. #13
    Looks like some rather useless token changes that won't really affect the core of the complaints against the talents.

    When taking the invocation talent you're burdened with a 50% mana penalty that forces you to do full evocates to regain 100% anyways...

    So you're burning down to 40-50% mana after 40 seconds in your regular rotation, and you'll HAVE to do a full evocate to regain 100% mana again. At best, maybe you can do 90% or 80% of that Eevocate to reach your 100% mana full buff with the change. This changes NOTHING.


    And the rune change is hardly anything too. Oh goodie, you can place 2 runes still with a 1.5 cast time each without a cd now... again, CHANGES NOTHING THAT PEOPLE WERE COMPLAING ABOUT.

    Whooptity doo. Call me when they implement something meaningful that actually fixes the gameplay complaints.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by timwoods View Post
    I agree that it is a quality of life change. Evoing over and over, and hoping your tank starts the countdown as soon as it finishes so you still have time to prepot, very annoying.
    Best change ever. So many times I wouldn't be able to get off a prepot, or have to start the pull at 35 seconds just because you had to constantly cast it. Definitely a huge quality of life change.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by korsic View Post
    This might make mana gems worth something again as well.
    Exactly. IMO is was dumb for me as a fire mage to completely ignore my mana. The only thing I paid attention to my mana on was on the H Gara'jal opening burn with bloodlust to gauge how bad my RNG was (I really REALLY hate the low mana chime my addon makes).

  16. #16
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsian View Post
    Looks like some rather useless token changes that won't really affect the core of the complaints against the talents.

    When taking the invocation talent you're burdened with a 50% mana penalty that forces you to do full evocates to regain 100% anyways...

    So you're burning down to 40-50% mana after 40 seconds in your regular rotation, and you'll HAVE to do a full evocate to regain 100% mana again. At best, maybe you can do 90% or 80% of that Eevocate to reach your 100% mana full buff with the change. This changes NOTHING.


    And the rune change is hardly anything too. Oh goodie, you can place 2 runes still with a 1.5 cast time each without a cd now... again, CHANGES NOTHING THAT PEOPLE WERE COMPLAING ABOUT.

    Whooptity doo. Call me when they implement something meaningful that actually fixes the gameplay complaints.
    This actually gives Mana Gems and Mana Pots a use (if you arn't using DPS pots). This is a buff overall if you manage it correctly. Don't use Rune of Power too much so can't comment on that.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    This actually gives Mana Gems and Mana Pots a use (if you arn't using DPS pots). This is a buff overall if you manage it correctly. Don't use Rune of Power too much so can't comment on that.
    Uh, not really. Your 2min cd Mana gems will hardly make a dent in your 300k mana bar towards that goal... how in the world would that make any significant change to teh actual annoyance of being forced to obnoxiously channel evocate every 40 secs?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsian View Post
    Looks like some rather useless token changes that won't really affect the core of the complaints against the talents.

    When taking the invocation talent you're burdened with a 50% mana penalty that forces you to do full evocates to regain 100% anyways...

    So you're burning down to 40-50% mana after 40 seconds in your regular rotation, and you'll HAVE to do a full evocate to regain 100% mana again. At best, maybe you can do 90% or 80% of that Eevocate to reach your 100% mana full buff with the change. This changes NOTHING.


    And the rune change is hardly anything too. Oh goodie, you can place 2 runes still with a 1.5 cast time each without a cd now... again, CHANGES NOTHING THAT PEOPLE WERE COMPLAING ABOUT.

    Whooptity doo. Call me when they implement something meaningful that actually fixes the gameplay complaints.
    In a raid setting:
    It changes the pre-pull ritual of running back, getting the food buff, de-equiping your weapon, getting into position, having to complete a full evocate, pre-potting, precasting pyroblast.

    While questing:
    Now you don't have to constantly evocate when you land before killing a mob!
    Last edited by Stache; 2012-10-26 at 07:03 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    How is this bad for Arcane? I haven't played since WotLK as I HATE Arcane
    You should play it and it will make a TON of more sense. But the jist boils down to the fact that one of the key things Arcane lost in MoP (just one of MANY) were actual mana management tools.

    Arcane no longer has fine grain control over its DPS<->DPM output and tradeoff. It actually no longer has any DPS reliable MPS cycles (check Kavan's post on EJ if you want the math behind this).

    What it does have is a nuke that takes 10+% of your total mana per cast. Couple that with the fact that its only main way to achieve viable damage (well laughably viable since its already leagues behind fire or frost, but you know what I mean) is through a proc, that means that if you ever have any cycle where you don't get 2 AM procs by the time you are at a 4 stack charge, you're basically fucked because you will have to either nerf your DPS (so you lose) or you eat another AB cast (an extra 10% mana). And if that happens even once for any 40 second super-cycle (Invoc buff length) then you basicaly won't make it to 100% mana during the cast.

    But that is only the first place this change nails Arcane, the other is even worse.

    With this change, frost and fire mages will not have to spend as much time evocating, since they can evoc for say half length and hit the 100% mana mark. Arcane mages will not only have to evoc the full duration, but evoc more often. This means frost/fire mages will actually have a much higher DPS uptime than Arcane, since they won't be spending as much time evocating. Hence, the gap between arcane and the other two specs only widens.


    As I said, these changes stink of someone making them without actually thinking through the implications. I am almost certain they were only made so our beloved MvP can point to them and say "your issues have been addressed". I wouldn't be surprised if he proposed them in the first place.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    In a raid setting:
    It changes the pre-pull ritual of running back, getting the food buff, de-equiping your weapon, getting into position, having to complete a full evocate, pre-potting, precasting pyroblast.

    While questing:
    Now you don't have to constantly evocate when you land before killing a mob!
    Pretty much this. It's a fairly big quality of life change, that's going to make prepping for the pull much simpler.

    Also, a little OT: Are you sure you still need to de-equip your weapon? I was spamming evocation for a couple minutes on the ptr, and had no jade spirit procs throughout it (unless it's something that only affects windsong).

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