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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    As far as I'm aware, the Titans never returned after the Earthen were corrupted by the Curse of Flesh. As it goes, the Old Gods were there first, the Titans arrived and beat them down, imprisoned them, and then set up the world the way they wanted it. Then, after they left, the Old Gods began to taint it from their prisons.
    Multiple versions of Earthen.

    Broloth is correct, he is simply using in-game lore, from the Tribunal of Ages.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Tribunal_of_Ages

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    In this instance, it is YOU that is wrong. The titans found Azeroth when it was in the clutches of the old gods. The old Gods and titans duked it out, the titans then struck down the old gods, killing at least Y'shaarj, believed they had killed C'thun, and imprisoned N'zoth and Yogg-saron. The Titans banished the Old God's Elemental Lieutenants (Ragnaros, Therazane, Neptulon, and Al'akir) to the Abyssal plane.The titans, thinking everything hunky dory, "civilize" Azeroth by placing the Vrykul, Earthen, Giants, and Mechagnomes to watch over Azeroth. They notice, however, that the old gods have begun to spread the curse of flesh, and upon further investigation, find that they can't completely remove the old gods without destroying Azeroth. They re-strengthen their defenses by placing down the watchers and appointing the Dragonflights, and then depart from Azeroth to continue spreading rainbows and sunshine throughout the universe.
    http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7228/ianwow023.jpg

    "[The] tauren are from before the titans, like the trolls..."

    REGARDLESS. The Earthen were created before the Old Gods came to Azeroth. " In the beginning Earthen were created..." IN. THE. BEGINNING. The Earthen were created to shape Azeroth for life. THEN, "In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by [Old Gods]."

    Then AFTER the Old Gods zapped the Earthen with the Curse of Flesh, the Titans came BACK to Azeroth. They realized if the killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would be destroyed as well.

    You can't have the Earthen become corrupted by the Old Gods BEFORE the Titans ever set foot on Azeroth. It's IMPOSSIBLE. The Titans HAD to have been to Azeroth PRIOR to the Old Gods in order to actually CREATE the Earthen and the Sea Giants.

    If you wont accept WoWpedia, try in-game dialogue, from Kil'ruk of the Klaxxi:

    "When the usurpers came - the ones you call "Titans" - Y'shaarj was destroyed."

    He didn't say "when the titans came back."
    So here's what the mantid can know.

    Titans show up and make Earthen and Sea Giants.
    Titans leave.
    Old Gods show up, fuck up dwarves, create Aqir.
    *Ding* The Aqir are alive.
    Titans show up and stomp the Aqir's creators.
    Titan's leave.

    Everything before the *Ding* is not something the Aqir are aware of. So either, to them, A. it appears that the Titans showed up for the first time, or B. they DID know the Titans were there before the Old Gods, and just weren't specific enough to use the word "back" because they didn't know that everything they said verbatim would be scrutinized by a bunch of WoW nerds.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 02:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    As far as I'm aware, the Titans never returned after the Earthen were corrupted by the Curse of Flesh. As it goes, the Old Gods were there first, the Titans arrived and beat them down, imprisoned them, and then set up the world the way they wanted it. Then, after they left, the Old Gods began to taint it from their prisons.

    If the Titans had come after the Curse of Flesh was put into place, they would have cured it. It's already been proven that it can be removed, as the quest involving the Mechagnomes in Borean Tundra showed us.
    The Old Gods corrupted the Earthen before they were imprisoned, not afterwards.
    Last edited by Boogums; 2012-11-13 at 08:47 AM.

  3. #43
    Hm. I didn't recall the stuff from the Tribunal of Ages (and thanks for the source, by the way). It does seem rather odd that the Titans never cured the Curse of Flesh, however, given how strict they appear to be about everything else.
    Last edited by StationaryHawk; 2012-11-13 at 08:54 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Hm. I didn't recall the stuff from the Tribunal of Ages (and thanks for the source, by the way). It does seem rather odd that the Titans never cured the Curse of Flesh, however, given how strict they appear to be about everything else.
    The Titans seem to be more of "cleaning-up" the problems then fixing them. All of their fail-safes mechanisms point towards that idea.
    Last edited by Tauror; 2012-11-13 at 09:03 AM.

  5. #45
    Legendary! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7228/ianwow023.jpg

    "[The] tauren are from before the titans, like the trolls..."

    REGARDLESS. The Earthen were created before the Old Gods came to Azeroth. " In the beginning Earthen were created..." IN. THE. BEGINNING. The Earthen were created to shape Azeroth for life. THEN, "In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by [Old Gods]."
    That doesn't prove anything other than that the trolls and tauren existed before the titans did... which is something I never contended. You give no metric to "in the beginning." Anything the titans did when they first came to Azeroth would have been "in their beginning," because they had just "begun" to do things. Like create the Earthen.

    We can pick apart what the tribunal of ages says:

    In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes.
    This doesn't say "after the titans made Azeroth." It merely asserts that, as Azeroth was forming out of whatever space dust forms WoW planets, the old gods buggered their way into the works.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    We can pick apart what the tribunal of ages says:

    "In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes."

    This doesn't say "after the titans made Azeroth." It merely asserts that, as Azeroth was forming out of whatever space dust forms WoW planets, the old gods buggered their way into the works.
    The "development cycle of Azeroth" is all the shit the dwarves were doing at the time.

  7. #47
    Legendary! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    The "development cycle of Azeroth" is all the shit the dwarves were doing at the time.
    That's an assumption.

    It goes deeper:

    From Dev chat:

    Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir.
    Now, the Aqir were created by the old gods. So you can try and riddle out how the old gods created a race before the titans on Azeroth came, which was before they, the old gods, themselves got to Azeroth. Either that or the Earthen aren't a sentient race.

    It's also been mentioned numerous times that the Old Gods waged war with one another with their armies of faceless ones (see warlord Zon'ozz) and used the Elemental lords as their lieutenants... at what time, exactly, did this happen, if the Titans were there before the old gods, and zipped right back to Azeroth to crush them?
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-11-13 at 09:33 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  8. #48
    maybe pandaren where just born/made this way. because then you can ask where are panda's from...

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer leaks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post

    REGARDLESS. The Earthen were created before the Old Gods came to Azeroth. " In the beginning Earthen were created..." IN. THE. BEGINNING. The Earthen were created to shape Azeroth for life. THEN, "In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by [Old Gods]."
    It says in the beginning because the question was specifically about how dwarves started.
    Brann Bronzebeard yells: Tell me how that dwarfs came to be, and start at the beginning!
    "Early stages of its development cycle" is talking about it's natural cycle.

    This in game book clearly states that the Old Gods were there first and the earthen were created after they were defeated. They could not shape the world until nature had calmed by imprisoning the elemental lords.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    That's an assumption.

    It goes deeper:

    From Dev chat:

    Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir.

    Now, the Aqir were created by the old gods. So you can try and riddle out how the old gods created a race before the titans on Azeroth before they, the old gods, themselves got to Azeroth. Either that or the Earthen aren't a sentient race.
    I don't have to. It says "Before the Titan's forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods," not, "Before the Titan's forces arrived on Azeroth for the first time to subdue the Old Gods."

    It's very simple. Titan's show up and create the Earthen and bounce, Old Gods show up, corrupt the Earthen and make the Aqir, the Titans arrive to subdue the Old Gods.

    Also, the Earthen probably weren't a sentient race, they were probably bound to the Titan's will until the Old Gods corrupted them.

    It's also been mentioned numerous times that the Old Gods waged war with one another with their armies of faceless ones (see warlord Zon'ozz) and used the Elemental lords as their lieutenants... at what time, exactly, did this happen, if the Titans were there before the old gods, and zipped right back to Azeroth to crush them?
    A strawman, but one I'll address.

    The Titans didn't just *zip* back to Azeroth to take care of the Old Gods. It's not like a tauren whipped out his iPhone and texted the Titans for help. Shit takes time. The Titans also don't just have Azeroth, so it's not like they were watching it like a hawk while they created life on all these other worlds.

    Also, none of what you're arguing ever address the point that the Earthen existed before the Old Gods, and that the Old Gods corrupted the Earthen BEFORE the Titans imprisoned them. You're grasping at straws at this point, but ultimately, this argument is done.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 03:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    It says in the beginning because the question was specifically about how dwarves started.


    "Early stages of its development cycle" is talking about it's natural cycle.

    This in game book clearly states that the Old Gods were there first and the earthen were created after they were defeated. They could not shape the world until nature had calmed by imprisoning the elemental lords.
    That book is at least as old as BC. The lore has changed since then.
    Last edited by Boogums; 2012-11-13 at 09:37 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    It's very simple. Titan's show up and create the Earthen and bounce, Old Gods show up, corrupt the Earthen and make the Aqir, the Titans arrive to subdue the Old Gods.
    Try this:

    We know the elementals predate the Titans' first appearance, and they're the Old Ones' creation, so the Old Ones must have come first. We also know the Old Ones curse-of-fleshed, and that the Titans came back and imprisoned Old Ones. We know that there's earthen made AFTER the curse of flesh BY the Titans, and we know that the Dragon Aspects do NOT predate the curse of flesh.

    So, it has to be:

    Old Ones always there
    Titans arrive, reorganize, create earthen, mechagnomes, ironvrykul
    Old Ones Curse the above with flesh
    Titans come back, realise there's Old Ones, deal with them, and install their defense mechanisms, ranging from the Dragon Aspects, to the Keepers and Watchers, the Vanir, the Aesir, Algalon, and the Halls of Origination.
    Old Ones start to corrupt the defense mechanisms from their prisons.
    Deathwing goes nutters.
    Other stuff happens
    IN THE MOUNTAINS
    Let the raiding begin.

  12. #52
    Warchief Zeror's Avatar
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    Night Elves evolved from trolls because of the Well's power. It has been said that pandaren lived among those Elves pre-sundering. I'm guessing that Pandarens are evolved Furbolgs, who also lived close to the Night Elves. Later, still pre-sundering, Pandaren left the the region of Night elves because they saw that their obsession with magic was getting out of control.
    Last edited by Zeror; 2012-11-13 at 10:17 AM.

  13. #53
    Legendary! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    I don't have to. It says "Before the Titan's forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods," not, "Before the Titan's forces arrived on Azeroth for the first time to subdue the Old Gods."

    It's very simple. Titan's show up and create the Earthen and bounce, Old Gods show up, corrupt the Earthen and make the Aqir, the Titans arrive to subdue the Old Gods.
    Now who's twisting words? I'll chalk that in with the Klaxxi one.

    The Titans didn't just *zip* back to Azeroth to take care of the Old Gods. It's not like a tauren whipped out his iPhone and texted the Titans for help. Shit takes time. The Titans also don't just have Azeroth, so it's not like they were watching it like a hawk while they created life on all these other worlds.
    "slow, steady infection" is one thing, the Old Gods wtfpwning Azeroth is something completely different. Especially if they had the Earthen dig-dugging their way around all the while.

    Also, none of what you're arguing ever address the point that the Earthen existed before the Old Gods, and that the Old Gods corrupted the Earthen BEFORE the Titans imprisoned them.
    I'm assuming you're hinging your argument on:
    Abedneum yells: Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes.
    Brann Bronzebeard yells: Necro-what? Speak bloody common will ya?
    Abedneum yells: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
    Brann Bronzebeard yells: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
    Kaddrak yells: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.
    Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
    Kaddrak yells: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.
    Which could mean one of two things:

    1. They thought the old gods were beaten, quelled, what have you (the elemental armies had been crushed.) Curse of flesh comes rolling around, the Titans reinvestigate. In this case, the tribunal mentioning the Old Gods after the Earthen (which were what Brann originally asked about anyway) was providing context for the "matrix non-stabilizing" query Brann makes. And do note that, within this timeframe being addressed by the archivum, there is no mention of elemental wars, rampaging faceless armies, etc, etc. This falls in line with every other bit of WoW lore, including books from vanilla WoW, developer chat, and what has been said in MoP.

    or

    2. The thing you said.

    but ultimately, this argument is done.
    Irrelevant to the original topic? Maybe. But far from "done."

    Seeing as this is so "vague and mysterious," it would seem as if we have to ultimately focus these things upon what has been said point blank, in WoW. That the Old gods existed on Azeroth, the titans came, and then it goes on from there.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-11-13 at 10:21 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    From Dev chat: snip
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Dragonflights

    Here's the most sentinent race which existed during the time Titans came to Azeroth, hence the leaders of the 5 dominent flights were appointed as Guardians after the Titans left.

  15. #55

  16. #56
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    bla
    Seen any Murlocs on Pandaria? No?
    Then there's your answer. The change was spread far and wide. And it was thorough.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  17. #57
    Immortal adam86shadow's Avatar
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    I actually made a thread about this... My opinion is they come from a bandicoon ancient because female pandaren resemble red pandas more which infact are a raccoon

  18. #58
    The lore & story department in WoW got laid off along with the other huge lay-offs with Blizzard a year ago. Ever since then there hasn't been much attention or interest into assuring coherency in some of the background of WoW. It's just a bunch of stuff thrown together with an explenation made up on the spot here and there.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    The lore & story department in WoW got laid off along with the other huge lay-offs with Blizzard a year ago. Ever since then there hasn't been much attention or interest into assuring coherency in some of the background of WoW. It's just a bunch of stuff thrown together with an explenation made up on the spot here and there.
    Are you implying that fantasy lore is made up?!?
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Are you implying that fantasy lore is made up?!?
    Who would have thought?

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