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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    no in my experiences, most of the 10 man guides i know, even those who were formerly 25 man guilds, and have exceptionally talented players often run rosters of around 10-13 players, 15 players at max. you can't do 25s with that few.

    paragon is special because they probably still have the 25-30 person roster, most 10 mans don't have that luxury. it does give them an unfair advantage over other 10 mans.
    Even if 13-15 players obviously can't run a 25 man raid, what stops them from doing 3x 10 man raids instead? Blood Legion does 5 full clears on opening - that means that every raider has anywhere from 3 to 5 alts, capable of clearing normal modes. If the same were true for 10 man, then they'd be on par with paragons one 10 man, one 25 man clear.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Even if 13-15 players obviously can't run a 25 man raid, what stops them from doing 3x 10 man raids instead? Blood Legion does 5 full clears on opening - that means that every raider has anywhere from 3 to 5 alts, capable of clearing normal modes. If the same were true for 10 man, then they'd be on par with paragons one 10 man, one 25 man clear.
    10 mans need to stick with their easy neutered content, no matter how hardcore they are. they can't pick and chose what they want. if paragon wants the gear progression advantages of a 25 man, they should have stayed 25 man.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    Can anyone remind me why being #1 is so important to people not in the actual guild?
    LOL this dudes got it. I read like a handful of posts in this thread....and all I think is... "You know which World Firsts whoever got? You follow these guilds? You know what their WoWprogress is?"

    I read MMO champion, obviously, so I see all the headlines.... I know BL just cleared the last heroic stuff first...isn't that enough? WHY THE FUCK DO ANY OF YOU CARE!?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Voolawl View Post
    Sorry, but BL gets one world first this tier and suddenly they're in contention for being the best? What about the past however many tiers without a WF.

    I pick Method purely based on prior results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldschoolwow View Post
    Wrong.

    Blood Legion has 3 world first kills in this tier.

    Method has only 2 first kills.

    Look at your messiah wowprogress again and see the truth for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    MV and HoF are the same tier. Oldschool is correct in saying that BL has 3 world first kills versus Method's 2, but again the only kills that matter are the end-raid bosses.
    Of course Voolawl didn't mean tier 14... he was talking about the achievements those guilds got in the past tiers...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    Can anyone remind me why being #1 is so important to people not in the actual guild?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible View Post
    Having success through others I´d imagine. Same reason people go crazy over a sports team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    Right, but at least you feel an affiliation for your team (ie they're from your town or something).
    Dumb answer. NASCAR/Formula 1 Racing is a perfect comparison to World First raiding. You can have a favorite racer and not have any affiliation to them. Same goes for the RACE for World First. And the argument that this is "just a game" can't be used, because racing is a sport, meaning by definition it is a "game" of sorts (granted the 'game' moniker fits a sport like Baseball or Football, better than racing, but it is still a viable point.)

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by epicsasxguy View Post
    Paragon > method > BL
    Paragon has no 25H kills, this is about the best 25 man guild in the world.

  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire Confucius's Avatar
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    doesnt only the last boss of the tier matter?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Even if 13-15 players obviously can't run a 25 man raid, what stops them from doing 3x 10 man raids instead? Blood Legion does 5 full clears on opening - that means that every raider has anywhere from 3 to 5 alts, capable of clearing normal modes. If the same were true for 10 man, then they'd be on par with paragons one 10 man, one 25 man clear.
    Yeah, that got me wondering all the time, I agree with you. Nobody is whining about 25m guilds running HUUUGE rosters, like some top10 having ~50-55 raiders. A lot of guilds that are slightly lower ranked run with around 40-45. Yet 10m somehow can't manage to run a 18-20m roster. That's just beyond me.

    At the moment, any guild that wants to compete for top 10 in 25m format pretty much has to raid 8-10 hours a day, have a big roster and most likely have an alt or two. Paragon handled their 10m race like they did with 25m race before. 10m guilds need to adapt or see these huge gaps in the future as well. Can't expect to keep on par with the guild that puts so much more effort than you, really.
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  9. #49
    Why do people care about gear funneling?

    Crying because Paragon uses a 25man clear the first week to funnel gear into their 10man. While other guilds run 3 to 5 25man raids the first week to funnel gear into their 25man. Blood Legion is a prime example, they have 5 main raiders in each raid to get the maximum gear possible into the raid group. If you try to say what Paragon is doing is wrong while saying what Blood Legion does is okay, you're mighty foolish.

    As for who is number 1 or what not this tier will always have a big * on it. With the bugged first boss which pretty much shut down the US head start so the "US got it first argument went out the window." People are also forgetting that 10man Ambershaper was bugged and had to be hotfixed. This put Paragon behind and they had to hours to realize it was bugged then wait for a fix to come in. After the fix it took them 3 attempts to get a kill. Most of the guilds that killed Ambershaper killed him in a few hours. Having to wait for almost half a day for a fix to come through so you can kill it will always leave the question of "If it wasn't bugged would they have killed it first."

    Either way people will always root for or against guilds. Because of that this is becoming more and more of a e-sport, and it's a wonderful thing. Lets hope that this last content patch is perfect for both 10s and 25s and we can see who the real number 1 in 25s and 10s are.

  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaharon View Post
    Usual 10 man guilds go in HoF hc (when it released) with ~485 ilvl. Most 25 mans go in with ~489 ilvl, Method/BL and such got in with 492 ilvl. Paragon went in as 10 man with 495,X ilvl. We all know how much gear does for raiding, more healing, longer healing, tanks take less dmg and deal more dmg, damage dealers deal more damage and everyone has more HP overall.

    So the difference between a normal 10 man that does heroics and paragon (they funneled gear for 10 people from 25 raids) are 10 ilvl, thats almost a whole content. Its the difference of going in with heroic dungeons gear and all 476 (valor/professions/lucky drops) and such. It does a whole lot, 10 ilvl in the whole raid is just a very, very strong push, and that's why paragon is so good/far right now. Most/Almost none of the 10 man guilds do this gear funneling because they are a 10 man guild and not a 10 man guild with the ressources of a 25 man, that just breaks all competition. You can't compete with people that got such a huge advance in gear.
    Exactly this. While I think it's nice that Paragon are still raiding and competing, we all know that they have an advantage over most 10 man guilds. Cause you'd have to be really hardcore to be in a 10 man guild with the one purpose of feeding gear to the real raiders, while you get nothing yourself.

    OT: Paragon is still the best guild in my opinion but since they're 10 man now, I'd have to say Method>Blood Legion, if you look at the 2 guilds over time and not just right here and now. Can't say that it won't change but right now, my vote goes to Method (still believe Paragon has the best raiders overall though).

    Edit: True that 10 man guilds could run 3x10 man runs for more gear but your average 25 man roster will still be bigger than your average 10 man roster. On top of that, you still get less loot from a 10 man raid than from a 25 man raid. But just to make it clear, I don't think there's anything wrong in funneling gear. It's the way it works and either you do it or you don't. Nothing unfair about it really.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2012-11-14 at 12:27 AM.

  11. #51
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  12. #52
    The problem is: Paragon is the only guild I know that does that gear funneling thing in 10 man, so they have a huge advantage over the other 10 mans. Most 10 mans don't have the roster to raid with 2 25 raids to equip 10 people out of 50, maybe even one more 25 man raid to equip another 5 people to be ready to make changes in roster, its 75 characters to equip 15, like it is in 25 mans (hardcore ones) and thats what brings up the problem.

    Of course you can say something along the lines of "Yeah, if you put more effort in it, you get more out of it" but no other 10 man guild CAN actually put THAT effort in because they have no 50+ man roster and you know why? Because they are 10 man.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 08:41 AM ----------

    It is not about 25 mans, really, those 25 mans are like "famous" and got enough people that help them funnel gear, but no other guild but paragon got that luxury for 10 man raids. I don't really care if 25 mans get more gear, because they do anyway and I think it's okay for the effort they have to put in but as a 10 man you don't have that many people to support you because you are a 10 man.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by doobypls View Post
    Dumb answer. NASCAR/Formula 1 Racing is a perfect comparison to World First raiding. You can have a favorite racer and not have any affiliation to them. Same goes for the RACE for World First. And the argument that this is "just a game" can't be used, because racing is a sport, meaning by definition it is a "game" of sorts (granted the 'game' moniker fits a sport like Baseball or Football, better than racing, but it is still a viable point.)
    Wow, I feel so discredited.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Exactly this. While I think it's nice that Paragon are still raiding and competing, we all know that they have an advantage over most 10 man guilds. Cause you'd have to be really hardcore to be in a 10 man guild with the one purpose of feeding gear to the real raiders, while you get nothing yourself.

    OT: Paragon is still the best guild in my opinion but since they're 10 man now, I'd have to say Method>Blood Legion, if you look at the 2 guilds over time and not just right here and now. Can't say that it won't change but right now, my vote goes to Method (still believe Paragon has the best raiders overall though).

    Edit: True that 10 man guilds could run 3x10 man runs for more gear but your average 25 man roster will still be bigger than your average 10 man roster. On top of that, you still get less loot from a 10 man raid than from a 25 man raid. But just to make it clear, I don't think there's anything wrong in funneling gear. It's the way it works and either you do it or you don't. Nothing unfair about it really.
    Nice post as always Danis.

    As you said in the first paragraph you have to be really hard core to be in a 10 man with your purpose being to feed gear to the core raiders.
    But you see thats excactly those 25s in the first page of wow progress are. So in order to compare anything you have to first be like them.

    And those people that are feeding gear in the start, grab both achievements and gear faster than 99% of people in non hard core guilds as soon as race is over anyway. It just requires open mind commitment sacrifice and mutual respect between the guild members. Those things i admire in a 25 of that caliber.

    People usually just snapshot their rank in that fake 10/25 man race and draw easy conclusions. It is very importand to know what you re talking about imho.
    And for Paragon that Russian guild and some others (like Freak me Out) that try to pass that mentality in the 10 mans i have nothing but respect for what they are doing.

    I dont know the people, but i respect how those teams are functioning to achieve their goals.

    Regarding your edit
    3X10 man full normal clears in MsV = 3x12 =36 potential upgrades for 10 people
    1X10 man + 1X25 man full normal clear in MsV = 12+6X6=48 potential upgrades. You are right, it is not the same.

    Still it is the way to do things in the 10 mans if you re going for world firsts.
    It doesnt matter that Paragon still has an edge, what it matters is that you as a contenter did what you could.
    And for those guilds at top 100, maintaining a roster with 11-12 top class raiders plus 3-4 top 1000 class members is really not THAT hard to accomplish having in mind that 25s with similar rank are maintaining a roster of 40+ people with the above characteristics.

  15. #55
    Do note that Paragon does not keep 25 main raiders around - as far as I've understood, the people making them capable of clearing 25 normal is old members who have gone social, who are just helping out?
    Not sure if true, but that's what I heard, anyway - it's not a specially employed tactic, it's basicly just helping out their old friends.
    Doesn't mean that 10 mans can't run 3-4 normal mode runs just like Scrubbuster/Blood legion does, anyway.

  16. #56
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    Can anyone remind me why being #1 is so important to people not in the actual guild?
    Why do you care what's important to other people? If people want to enjoy world first races, let them, what harm does it do to you?
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  17. #57
    Bloodsail Admiral Shadee's Avatar
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    Paragon doesn't really count anymore since they are 10 man

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Do note that Paragon does not keep 25 main raiders around - as far as I've understood, the people making them capable of clearing 25 normal is old members who have gone social, who are just helping out?
    Not sure if true, but that's what I heard, anyway - it's not a specially employed tactic, it's basicly just helping out their old friends.
    Doesn't mean that 10 mans can't run 3-4 normal mode runs just like Scrubbuster/Blood legion does, anyway.
    Yes that's what how I've understood it too Draco. But the thing is, that not many 10 man guilds are likely to have that large a raider pool - even if retired raiders. Heck, when I look at the social members in my own guild, only a few of them would be capable of raiding with the core team. The rest are Normal mode socials or even LFR socials.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    no in my experiences, most of the 10 man guides i know, even those who were formerly 25 man guilds, and have exceptionally talented players often run rosters of around 10-13 players, 15 players at max. you can't do 25s with that few.

    paragon is special because they probably still have the 25-30 person roster, most 10 mans don't have that luxury. it does give them an unfair advantage over other 10 mans.
    But most cutting edge guilds will have multiple raid ready alts for fights as badly designed as spine, paragon running a 25man instead of 2-3 10mans padded with alt that pass on gear is just a different way of getting the same effect.

    It's an advantage, but it's not unfair - if other 10man guilds want to be as cutting edge as paragon they'll level some alts, nothing is stopping them putting some extra time into trying to be the best they can.

  20. #60
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