<DREAM Paragon> = 10 man standard. <Blood Legion> or <Method> 25 man standard?

[Tiev]

Can anyone remind me why being #1 is so important to people not in the actual guild?

Hahaha this is so true.

[Shamypriest]

Usual 10 man guilds go in HoF hc (when it released) with ~485 ilvl. Most 25 mans go in with ~489 ilvl, Method/BL and such got in with 492 ilvl. Paragon went in as 10 man with 495,X ilvl. We all know how much gear does for raiding, more healing, longer healing, tanks take less dmg and deal more dmg, damage dealers deal more damage and everyone has more HP overall.

[citation required]

It is one thing to say they funneled gear from 25 man, and that this is an advantage other 10 man guilds don't have; I fully agree with this. It is another thing to claim knowledge of specific numbers. I would be interested to see the source of these numbers.

[Ellsian]

Usual 10 man guilds go in HoF hc (when it released) with ~485 ilvl. Most 25 mans go in with ~489 ilvl, Method/BL and such got in with 492 ilvl. Paragon went in as 10 man with 495,X ilvl. We all know how much gear does for raiding, more healing, longer healing, tanks take less dmg and deal more dmg, damage dealers deal more damage and everyone has more HP overall.

So the difference between a normal 10 man that does heroics and paragon (they funneled gear for 10 people from 25 raids) are 10 ilvl, thats almost a whole content. Its the difference of going in with heroic dungeons gear and all 476 (valor/professions/lucky drops) and such. It does a whole lot, 10 ilvl in the whole raid is just a very, very strong push, and that's why paragon is so good/far right now. Most/Almost none of the 10 man guilds do this gear funneling because they are a 10 man guild and not a 10 man guild with the ressources of a 25 man, that just breaks all competition. You can't compete with people that got such a huge advance in gear.

This is a good point that is often overlooked. Kudos.

[Zues]

That's an interesting point about the gear funneling.

However, I do remember Vodka running 3 25 mans at the start of this expac to gear their core 25 for raid. Maybe every guild is doing something similar?

[Kaharon]

The source of this numbers was the arsenal. Right now they are above that numbers already. Those numbers were present when HoF hc just released, so only gear from MSV+MSV hc and HoF normal.

There also was a thread with specific numbers just before HoF hc released I think, I double checked numbers with their current raiders back then and realized how unbalanced progress was going to be @ 10 man.

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 02:21 AM ----------

Maybe it is this way, maybe paragon just got very lucky with loots overall (3 more ilvl for whole raid is like 3 items more per player/30 items overall which seems a little off for just "luck"). I know that most hardcore 25 mans do this strategy, but they don't gear 10 people, they gear 25 - FOR 25 man mode, so it kinda is "okay". You have more time/ressources? Please, take more gear, won't say anything against that.

But as a 10 man you should only play 10 man, not have 15 slaves that go with you equipping 10 of 25 people, maybe even several times because I don't think they only have a 10 people player pool. It just is unfair for the overall competition when it comes to 10 man. They are outgearing everyone else by a hurge margin.

So overall they got it easier than even ALL 25 mans - GEARWISE, not going to start 10v25 again.

[Thirstblood]

Why is this topic such a big deal? >_________>

[Deleted]

I'd still like to see the actual proof for Paragon's gear funneling.
And yeah, Method, too, ran at least 3 25man groups.

[Superlolz]

Can anyone remind me why being #1 is so important to people not in the actual guild?

Can anyone remind why winning the Olympic medal/Super Bowl/World Cup is so important to people not in the actual team?

[chocobo606]

cthe answer is pretty obvious, isn't it?
I'M FROM EUROPE AND 25M IS HARDER, GO METHOD.
I'M FROM EUROPE, 10M IS HARDER. GO PARAGON!
I'M FROM US, GO BLOOD LEGION!

You say "One kill doesn't make them the best". hello? "the best" isn't a constant in this game or any game of competition, there is always someone who is the best and eventually not the best, then maybe the best again.

my answer is honestly, I don't care but any guild that says HC raiding is similar to learning how to play a violin or an actual sport in the real world is obviously delusional, and I wouldn't be a part of a guild with a giant tool for a RL like BL.

[kosechi]

Paragon > method > BL

method and BL are 25 man. paragon are 10 man.

method and BL>paragon.

[Dominian]

Guilds never change rosters or what they focus on, they are simply names with no faces all controlled by robots.

O wait haha.

Do you ever wonder why different sports teams win Championships or Super Bowls ect? The roster changes, focus changes. Don't read too much into names.

Ensidia had a lot of world firsts for many many tiers how come we stopped talking about them in cataclysm?

[Deleted]

I'd still like to see the actual proof for Paragon's gear funneling.
And yeah, Method, too, ran at least 3 25man groups.

Paragon did one full clear 10 man normal MsV day one and one full clear MsV normal 25 the day 2.
They had 35 toons ranked for full clear MsV. 10 of them with one day's worth higher points than the other 25 toons in MsV normal last day before reset.
They were ranked 48th 25 ppl raid in the world the last day before heroic MsV was available.

I am not saying this is bad.
In fact i am saying that since 25s are doing it for years, ever since normal and heroic mode was introduced, 10 man that want to see 10/25 race as one race and "beat 25s" (it isnt one race but two seperate ones), has to FIRST go through the same preparation and AFTER whine that their content is overtuned when they lose over 25s in that fictionary race of theirs.

[starkey]

Midwinter gets my vote atleast they show there progression raids.

[Squidfayce]

<DREAM Paragon> = 10 man standard. <Blood Legion> or <Method> 25 man standard?.

Only if you measure the car you drive against Formula 1 as the "standard".

These guys are not "the standard" by any means. They are "the best". You dont measure yourself against the best unless you are amongst the best, otherwise you just look shit.

[Maelstrom51]

It is one thing to say they funneled gear from 25 man, and that this is an advantage other 10 man guilds don't have; I fully agree with this. It is another thing to claim knowledge of specific numbers. I would be interested to see the source of these numbers.

I can't find it now, but earlier in the week (monday I think) someone posted a table of the top guilds' average item levels, and I pretty specifically remember Paragon being 493.something, while the other top guilds were at 492.something. They were ahead of 25s, but not by much. I imagine they were vastly ahead of all other 10 mans, though.

[Nakkí]

<DREAM Paragon> has a little bit of an edge over 10man guilds because they cleared normal of at least Heart of Fear on 25 and more than likely funneled gear to the main 10. Not cheating but not on an even footing with the other 10man competitors.

It should be noted that they are not unique in this practice. AFAIK at least some other high ranking 10m guilds do this.
I even know of one or two more casual (read: top 300) guilds used 25->10 gear funneling at the start of a new tier.

[Deleted]

Who cares who is top at the moment when all that has ever mattered is the final boss of the tier? In this case it's Heroic Sha.

[Deleted]

I can´t agree with you kaharon. Funneling gear from 25mans is a option open to any other 10man guild not just paragon.

[kosechi]

I can´t agree with you kaharon. Funneling gear from 25mans is a option open to any other 10man guild not just paragon.

no in my experiences, most of the 10 man guides i know, even those who were formerly 25 man guilds, and have exceptionally talented players often run rosters of around 10-13 players, 15 players at max. you can't do 25s with that few.

paragon is special because they probably still have the 25-30 person roster, most 10 mans don't have that luxury. it does give them an unfair advantage over other 10 mans.

[Pyryte]

LoL at people whining about gear funneling. These raid teams are absolutely hardcore, they will do everything to get extra gear. If they have the option available to them to run 25 to get more gear... why wouldn't they. If other 10 mans wanted to they could try to put it together, or 25s could funnel gear to a 10 man. Either way theres no point in calling them out for doing the max they can to gear their toons, its not exploiting. Them doing this is equivilent to you doing your dailies, it improves your character so do it.

Are people going to start arguing that it's unfair that other guilds raid while they're at work since they don't have the option to do so? Get real, it's an MMO, you do everything you can to be on top, if that's your goal.

Less QQ moar PewPew