Content Gates Vs Gear Gates

[Zeek Daniels]

As clear a change in design philosophy as I have ever seen from a game developer, and it makes me wonder what ANet are seeing that they have made it so soon. Radiance didn't make people in LotRO suddenly change their playstyles and was pretty much an unmitigated disaster, but this implementation comes a lot sooner in the games life and may be less disruptive. Resistance gear ftw.

Please explain how Arena Net have changed their design philosophy.

[Sylvanie]

Not gonna link it but the blog says that Agony is a new condition in the FoM dungeon. Your infusion is going to combat this reducing its damage, not other players dmg or other mobs dmg, just that conditions dmg. They said infusions can be gained from Mystic forge however but infusions slots are from gear drops inside the FoM itself.

I have read that myself and understand quite well how infusions work vs. agony, but my question was whether it will be limited to that dungeon in the future. I have a hard time believing that they are introducing a new tier of armor just for this one dungeon, especially since ascended armor for most slots won't come out until future content patches.

[Zeek Daniels]

I have read that myself and understand quite well how infusions work vs. agony, but my question was whether it will be limited to that dungeon in the future. I have a hard time believing that they are introducing a new tier of armor just for this one dungeon, especially since ascended armor for most slots won't come out until future content patches.

That is exactly what they are doing. The ascended armor will gradually get released, which means you can gradually get to higher and higher difficulties. Not to mention they will be adding more parts to the dungeon so instead of running the same 9 map rotations over and over again youll prolly be running 12 or 15 map rotations.

This dungeon is being made for specific set of individuals. If you casually play you can do each of those maps in rotation no problem. But if your looking for a more difficult challenge your going to need help, and thats what the gear is for. The infusions wont help you in other instances and wont be obtainable in other dungeons. Just the mystic forge and this dungeon. The gear itself will help you in other dungeons but you dont need that gear to do them as ppl have completed them in lesser gear since day 1. This Ascended gear is just for this dungeon. No more dungeons like it should ever be made since all you have to do is add more maps to the rotation.

This is why they called it a new PvE mode. Because to me it seems like a totally separate PvE experience.

[Sylvanie]

Please explain how Arena Net have changed their design philosophy.

See: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

"We don't need mandatory gear treadmills."

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:09 PM ----------

That is exactly what they are doing.

Again, can you source that or are you speculating?

[Durzlla]

Yeah but this is just a gear check, not a skill check at all.

unavoidable damage is ALWAYS a gear check... there is no skill involved against something that you can not avoid...

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 11:13 AM ----------

See: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

"We don't need mandatory gear treadmills."

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:09 PM ----------



Again, can you source that or are you speculating?

Oh this is causing a mandatory gear treadmill? Please tell me how i need to get Ascension gear in order to do any of the current content or do the 9 new mini dungeons in the fractals of the mists?

Oh wait... i don't, huh imagine that... there's no gear treadmill afterall!!

[Bovinity Divinity]

Oh this is causing a mandatory gear treadmill? Please tell me how i need to get Ascension gear in order to do any of the current content or do the 9 new mini dungeons in the fractals of the mists?

Oh wait... i don't, huh imagine that... there's no gear treadmill afterall!!

This is the same logic which - had someone other than ArenaNet presented it a week ago - you would have rejected as being "Not for this game". If you're going to rationalize it as being fine because it's still technically "not mandatory" then you might as well just support a full blown raiding system while you're at it.

[Durzlla]

This is the same logic which - had someone other than ArenaNet presented it a week ago - you would have rejected as being "Not for this game". If you're going to rationalize it as being fine because it's still technically "not mandatory" then you might as well just support a full blown raiding system while you're at it.

I can do this new instance without the gear, i can do the old instances without the gear, when raiding shows up i can not do the second, third, fourth, fifth raids, without the gear from the previous one(s) that's why i support this instead of raiding, if they brought in 10 mans that i could use the same exotic gear i already have for ALL of them and be totally fine, idc, where PvP is competitive everyones on equal footing, in PvE i just want to be able to DO the content, hell i didn't even NEED exotics (or even gear my lv) to do the explos! That's why in this game i don't care, where as in others i do.

My comment (that you quoted) is still fact, i do not NEED to be on a gear treadmill to do a single sliver of content in the game, therefore there is no mandatory gear grind, which means Anet hasn't broken a single one of their main reasons behind making the game.

GOOD DAY SIR!!

[Fencers]

Again Fencers the content is easily doable.

This is more of that faith stuff right?

It is purely speculation on your part here. Purely.

I am talking about 100% objective facts outlined in black/white terms by developers themselves.


- Anet will add gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise.
- Anet plan on continued gear progression in the Guild Wars franchise.
- There WILL be content gated by the Agony mechanic it is explained in not uncertain terms by the developers.
- Additional content will be released in which Agony is a mechanic, thus creating a bimodal endgame.


There is not one thing I listed that is not expressly stated by Arena.net on the blog.

+1, +0.01, +1000 stat increases are not at all relevant to this discussion.

Anet will be adding gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise as a point of fact. This stuff about greens and blues-- that is all in your imagination currently.

[Zeek Daniels]

See: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

"We don't need mandatory gear treadmills."

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:09 PM ----------



Again, can you source that or are you speculating?

key word Manditory. Where is Anet forcing you the player to attain this gear to see all of its content. The content itself is optional. The gear is optional. And the content at its base level of difficulty does not require the gear to do. So its not manditory for you to get the gear. I keep citing examples where the treadmill is mandatory Ill do it again so you can understand what im getting at. At level 85 at the start of Cata in WoW i prolly had a few blue pieces and mostly greens from questing. I could not do raid content because my gear did not allow me to. It would be impossible for me to even kill one boss in a raid with that gear. I had to then get on the "gear treadmill" that was mandatory for me to see that raid content. If i didnt farm heroics and do dailies i would not have been able to raid.

Now switch to GW2. When this dungeon gets released i can go on my Ele who has 3 exotic pieces and the rest are greens, grab 4 players from LA trade chat who are equally or lesser geared than my Ele and go complete this new dungeon. Now by complete i dont mean get to the highest difficulty i mean do all 9 available paths. By doing all 9 available paths i have been able to complete the content Anet have released. It is then my choice to progress to higher difficulties or to keep doing lower level ones of the same content.This is not a gear treadmill, I did not have to do some grind to gain the ability to complete all 9 paths. In WoW i would have to do content A to get to content B. In GW2 i can do content A and B together.

This is more of that faith stuff right?

It is purely speculation on your part here. Purely.

I am talking about 100% objective facts outlined in black/white terms by developers themselves.


- Anet will add gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise.
- Anet plan on continued gear progression in the Guild Wars franchise.
- There WILL be content gated by the Agony mechanic it is explained in not uncertain terms by the developers.
- Additional content will be released in which Agony is a mechanic, thus creating a bimodal endgame.


There is not one thing I listed that is not expressly stated by Arena.net on the blog.

+1, +0.01, +1000 stat increases are not at all relevant to this discussion.

Anet will be adding gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise as a point of fact. This stuff about greens and blues-- that is all in your imagination currently.

Except that the content is not gated. The dungeon cycles maps and these maps get repeated. So players that are doing FoM will get to see every single map. There is no gate. The gate is on the higher difficulty settings not on the maps. Just because it says gear progression does not mean its the same progression that you know from other games. What we have to go off of is the Agony mechanic. If it does more dmg the higher the difficulty then you can add progression by increasing the defense against it with new infusion recipes. And again only those players who want higher difficulty will actually need those infusions.

Incase ppl dont understand the 9 Fractals are in a rotation. More Fractals will be added to that rotation. If you reset your difficulty you will be able to see all the fractals. No fractals are gated behind a certain difficulty, as in it doesnt just rotate fractals 1-4 until u reach difficulty 5 then do 1-6 till you reach difficulty 10 then do 1-9. You will see all the content. The Content itself is not gated the difficulty is. Im sorry fencers but your blowing things out of proportion.

[Newbryn]

key word Manditory. Where is Anet forcing you the player to attain this gear to see all of its content. The content itself is optional. The gear is optional. And the content at its base level of difficulty does not require the gear to do. So its not manditory for you to get the gear. I keep citing examples where the treadmill is mandatory Ill do it again so you can understand what im getting at. At level 85 at the start of Cata in WoW i prolly had a few blue pieces and mostly greens from questing. I could not do raid content because my gear did not allow me to. It would be impossible for me to even kill one boss in a raid with that gear. I had to then get on the "gear treadmill" that was mandatory for me to see that raid content. If i didnt farm heroics and do dailies i would not have been able to raid.

Now switch to GW2. When this dungeon gets released i can go on my Ele who has 3 exotic pieces and the rest are greens, grab 4 players from LA trade chat who are equally or lesser geared than my Ele and go complete this new dungeon. Now by complete i dont mean get to the highest difficulty i mean do all 9 available paths. By doing all 9 available paths i have been able to complete the content Anet have released. It is then my choice to progress to higher difficulties or to keep doing lower level ones of the same content.This is not a gear treadmill, I did not have to do some grind to gain the ability to complete all 9 paths. In WoW i would have to do content A to get to content B. In GW2 i can do content A and B together.

You just seem to be missing the point content being optional is irrelevant, what this does is add exclusivity to the game, goes against the very design philosophy.

[Bovinity Divinity]

My comment (that you quoted) is still fact, i do not NEED to be on a gear treadmill to do a single sliver of content in the game, therefore there is no mandatory gear grind, which means Anet hasn't broken a single one of their main reasons behind making the game.

Don't wanna get Ascended gear?

Wanna join your friends on their x28 run or whatever?

Too bad.

The fact that you personally don't care about doing a x28 run is irrelevant here. That roadblock existing AT ALL is bad.

[Durzlla]

Don't wanna get Ascended gear?

Wanna join your friends on their x28 run or whatever?

Too bad.

The fact that you personally don't care about doing a x28 run is irrelevant here. That roadblock existing AT ALL is bad.

well seeing as how about each wave is supposed to be ~20-40 minutes, i don't have the time to do that whether i wanted to or not... so... yeah, the roadblock thing isn't PREVENTING content from you, that's like saying, "Wanna do tPvP with some friends? Whelp to bad!! you aren't good enough to play at their lv time to get better!!"

Both take time, and are both are optional, but neither are required to actually play the content itself, just required to get to a higher lv in the same content.

[Bovinity Divinity]

that's like saying, "Wanna do tPvP with some friends? Whelp to bad!! you aren't good enough to play at their lv time to get better!!"

You...just equated skill with gear.

I think we've come full circle here. Think this discussion is a lost cause.

(HAH, get it? LOST cause? LOST Shore?...ok, nevermind. =O )

[Berethos08]

The amount of stat increase is irrelevant. The addition of linear gear progression post level cap is totally hypocritical of basically everything Arena.net have been selling under the GW2 franchise.

It's really not. Much of what they have talked about in the past related to gear grinding and such talked about how they didn't want to design a game where you had to spend countless hours grinding for gear that most players couldn't realistically obtain. Nothing about this new ascended armor suggests that it will fall in that category.

Hell, even GW1 had a slight amount of gear disparity involved once you reached the level cap. Perfect modifiers on items (largely for specific builds) could cause the value of an item to skyrocket (especially if it was also a rare skin). That wasn't just because players thought the numbers were prettier.

[Zeek Daniels]

You just seem to be missing the point content being optional is irrelevant, what this does is add exclusivity to the game, goes against the very design philosophy.

What is exclusive? The content is open to everyone, i dont understand.

-edit-

It seems like ppl are pointing their fingers at the gear when they should be pointing it at the design of the dungeon itself.

So here are a few proposed changes to the dungeon and you guys tell me how long you would run it.

Dungeon is still infinite. Dungeon Rotates 9 different maps, each with a different story and different objectives. Dungeon does not scale in difficulty. No matter how deep you get into the dungeon the rewards do not increase. Dungeon rewards are the same chests you get from story/explore dungeons. Every 3 dungeons you complete you gain EXP, some silver, and a random item of blue to exotic quality. The every 3 dungeon reward does not increase the deeper you get into the dungeon.

Now how many of you would stop doing that dungeon after completing all 9 paths a few times and realizing that the chance of getting an exotic from that dungeon completion is to low to keep attempting it.

[Durzlla]

You...just equated skill with gear.

I think we've come full circle here. Think this discussion is a lost cause.

(HAH, get it? LOST cause? LOST Shore?...ok, nevermind. =O )

I was actually going time spent because I was thinking you'd have to be a bawss to get the infusion gear, but it takes time, and you clearly have to be a bawss in pvp to be a bawss

[draykorinee]

Oh, Anet have added gear disparity and a lovely carrot on a stick, even if its not mandatory its there, like blizz telling us dailies arent mandatory, it doesnt matter, if you have gear disparity its still against the PR they had before release :S I guess only time will tell.

[Zeek Daniels]

Oh, Anet have added gear disparity and a lovely carrot on a stick, even if its not mandatory its there, like blizz telling us dailies arent mandatory, it doesnt matter, if you have gear disparity its still against the PR they had before release :S I guess only time will tell.

Gear disparity has always been present at level 80. Theres whites, greens, blues, yellows, and oranges. Been there since day 1. Theres also no carrot on a stick. The gear is just there. Wether you want to get it or not is up to you the player. Same as the content. Its all able to be completed regardless of gear, blizz cant say the same, thats why i dont have a problem with what they are doing.

[Fencers]

Except that the content is not gated.

It is gated. It says so right on the blog.

I quoted it and posted it like twice now.

There is no gate.

The gate is on the higher difficulty settings not on the maps.

Content is gated. Mode Ex+ has a barrier to entry, mode Ex++ has a barrier to entry, mode Ex+++.. you get the idea.

That is 100% gated content. There is no logical argument to made in contra. The developers say this so so directly with no ambiguity.

Not only is that system gated, it is also by all rights bimodal end of game content.

Diablo 3 has the same exact method of gating. Its a gear check.

Just because it says gear progression does not mean its the same progression that you know from other games.

It does mean the same. Anet even placed an example of ascended gear being linear progression.

They call it their gear progression initiative and cite specifically high-end play. It says these words right on the blog. In literal black text on white.

I actually appreciate Anet not wiggling out of this idea and being upfront about it. Again, a spade is a spade. We have the developer not only telling use a spade is a spade but showing their hand openly.

[Alsonia]

Yea that is what they should have done. The problem is prolly that what do you do about all the existing exotic sets? Do they get the infusion slots too? Do i need to go back and acquire another full dungeon set cuz my current set doesnt have infusion slots. Also think about this. The current content in GW2 doesnt need infusion slots to complete the challenges. So why add them to the existing gear. The new content also doesnt require infusion slots at its base level. So ppl in exotics and lower can complete that content just like any other content.

By making a new "tier" only needed in a certain dungeon, wait lemme rephrase that, By making a new "tier" that is only needed in the highest of difficulties in a repeatable dungeon that anyone can do any number of times on any difficulty they wish.

They could actually still of had ascended armor just make the have the same stats as exotics but with an infusion slot. That way you separate FoM dungeons from storymode/explorable dungeons.
-still not a gear treadmill-

SO it's ONLY required for PvE; I guess we forget WvW uses PvE gear now.