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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Yeah but this is just a gear check, not a skill check at all.
    unavoidable damage is ALWAYS a gear check... there is no skill involved against something that you can not avoid...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 11:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    See: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

    "We don't need mandatory gear treadmills."

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:09 PM ----------



    Again, can you source that or are you speculating?
    Oh this is causing a mandatory gear treadmill? Please tell me how i need to get Ascension gear in order to do any of the current content or do the 9 new mini dungeons in the fractals of the mists?

    Oh wait... i don't, huh imagine that... there's no gear treadmill afterall!!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    This is the same logic which - had someone other than ArenaNet presented it a week ago - you would have rejected as being "Not for this game". If you're going to rationalize it as being fine because it's still technically "not mandatory" then you might as well just support a full blown raiding system while you're at it.
    I can do this new instance without the gear, i can do the old instances without the gear, when raiding shows up i can not do the second, third, fourth, fifth raids, without the gear from the previous one(s) that's why i support this instead of raiding, if they brought in 10 mans that i could use the same exotic gear i already have for ALL of them and be totally fine, idc, where PvP is competitive everyones on equal footing, in PvE i just want to be able to DO the content, hell i didn't even NEED exotics (or even gear my lv) to do the explos! That's why in this game i don't care, where as in others i do.

    My comment (that you quoted) is still fact, i do not NEED to be on a gear treadmill to do a single sliver of content in the game, therefore there is no mandatory gear grind, which means Anet hasn't broken a single one of their main reasons behind making the game.

    GOOD DAY SIR!!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  3. #43
    Again Fencers the content is easily doable.
    This is more of that faith stuff right?

    It is purely speculation on your part here. Purely.

    I am talking about 100% objective facts outlined in black/white terms by developers themselves.


    - Anet will add gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise.
    - Anet plan on continued gear progression in the Guild Wars franchise.
    - There WILL be content gated by the Agony mechanic it is explained in not uncertain terms by the developers.
    - Additional content will be released in which Agony is a mechanic, thus creating a bimodal endgame.


    There is not one thing I listed that is not expressly stated by Arena.net on the blog.

    +1, +0.01, +1000 stat increases are not at all relevant to this discussion.

    Anet will be adding gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise as a point of fact. This stuff about greens and blues-- that is all in your imagination currently.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    See: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

    "We don't need mandatory gear treadmills."

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:09 PM ----------



    Again, can you source that or are you speculating?
    key word Manditory. Where is Anet forcing you the player to attain this gear to see all of its content. The content itself is optional. The gear is optional. And the content at its base level of difficulty does not require the gear to do. So its not manditory for you to get the gear. I keep citing examples where the treadmill is mandatory Ill do it again so you can understand what im getting at. At level 85 at the start of Cata in WoW i prolly had a few blue pieces and mostly greens from questing. I could not do raid content because my gear did not allow me to. It would be impossible for me to even kill one boss in a raid with that gear. I had to then get on the "gear treadmill" that was mandatory for me to see that raid content. If i didnt farm heroics and do dailies i would not have been able to raid.

    Now switch to GW2. When this dungeon gets released i can go on my Ele who has 3 exotic pieces and the rest are greens, grab 4 players from LA trade chat who are equally or lesser geared than my Ele and go complete this new dungeon. Now by complete i dont mean get to the highest difficulty i mean do all 9 available paths. By doing all 9 available paths i have been able to complete the content Anet have released. It is then my choice to progress to higher difficulties or to keep doing lower level ones of the same content.This is not a gear treadmill, I did not have to do some grind to gain the ability to complete all 9 paths. In WoW i would have to do content A to get to content B. In GW2 i can do content A and B together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    This is more of that faith stuff right?

    It is purely speculation on your part here. Purely.

    I am talking about 100% objective facts outlined in black/white terms by developers themselves.


    - Anet will add gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise.
    - Anet plan on continued gear progression in the Guild Wars franchise.
    - There WILL be content gated by the Agony mechanic it is explained in not uncertain terms by the developers.
    - Additional content will be released in which Agony is a mechanic, thus creating a bimodal endgame.


    There is not one thing I listed that is not expressly stated by Arena.net on the blog.

    +1, +0.01, +1000 stat increases are not at all relevant to this discussion.

    Anet will be adding gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise as a point of fact. This stuff about greens and blues-- that is all in your imagination currently.
    Except that the content is not gated. The dungeon cycles maps and these maps get repeated. So players that are doing FoM will get to see every single map. There is no gate. The gate is on the higher difficulty settings not on the maps. Just because it says gear progression does not mean its the same progression that you know from other games. What we have to go off of is the Agony mechanic. If it does more dmg the higher the difficulty then you can add progression by increasing the defense against it with new infusion recipes. And again only those players who want higher difficulty will actually need those infusions.

    Incase ppl dont understand the 9 Fractals are in a rotation. More Fractals will be added to that rotation. If you reset your difficulty you will be able to see all the fractals. No fractals are gated behind a certain difficulty, as in it doesnt just rotate fractals 1-4 until u reach difficulty 5 then do 1-6 till you reach difficulty 10 then do 1-9. You will see all the content. The Content itself is not gated the difficulty is. Im sorry fencers but your blowing things out of proportion.
    Last edited by Zeek Daniels; 2012-11-13 at 06:31 PM.

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Newbryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    key word Manditory. Where is Anet forcing you the player to attain this gear to see all of its content. The content itself is optional. The gear is optional. And the content at its base level of difficulty does not require the gear to do. So its not manditory for you to get the gear. I keep citing examples where the treadmill is mandatory Ill do it again so you can understand what im getting at. At level 85 at the start of Cata in WoW i prolly had a few blue pieces and mostly greens from questing. I could not do raid content because my gear did not allow me to. It would be impossible for me to even kill one boss in a raid with that gear. I had to then get on the "gear treadmill" that was mandatory for me to see that raid content. If i didnt farm heroics and do dailies i would not have been able to raid.

    Now switch to GW2. When this dungeon gets released i can go on my Ele who has 3 exotic pieces and the rest are greens, grab 4 players from LA trade chat who are equally or lesser geared than my Ele and go complete this new dungeon. Now by complete i dont mean get to the highest difficulty i mean do all 9 available paths. By doing all 9 available paths i have been able to complete the content Anet have released. It is then my choice to progress to higher difficulties or to keep doing lower level ones of the same content.This is not a gear treadmill, I did not have to do some grind to gain the ability to complete all 9 paths. In WoW i would have to do content A to get to content B. In GW2 i can do content A and B together.
    You just seem to be missing the point content being optional is irrelevant, what this does is add exclusivity to the game, goes against the very design philosophy.
    Claymore is Epic again, eat it priscilla fanboys.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Don't wanna get Ascended gear?

    Wanna join your friends on their x28 run or whatever?

    Too bad.

    The fact that you personally don't care about doing a x28 run is irrelevant here. That roadblock existing AT ALL is bad.
    well seeing as how about each wave is supposed to be ~20-40 minutes, i don't have the time to do that whether i wanted to or not... so... yeah, the roadblock thing isn't PREVENTING content from you, that's like saying, "Wanna do tPvP with some friends? Whelp to bad!! you aren't good enough to play at their lv time to get better!!"

    Both take time, and are both are optional, but neither are required to actually play the content itself, just required to get to a higher lv in the same content.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The amount of stat increase is irrelevant. The addition of linear gear progression post level cap is totally hypocritical of basically everything Arena.net have been selling under the GW2 franchise.
    It's really not. Much of what they have talked about in the past related to gear grinding and such talked about how they didn't want to design a game where you had to spend countless hours grinding for gear that most players couldn't realistically obtain. Nothing about this new ascended armor suggests that it will fall in that category.

    Hell, even GW1 had a slight amount of gear disparity involved once you reached the level cap. Perfect modifiers on items (largely for specific builds) could cause the value of an item to skyrocket (especially if it was also a rare skin). That wasn't just because players thought the numbers were prettier.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Newbryn View Post
    You just seem to be missing the point content being optional is irrelevant, what this does is add exclusivity to the game, goes against the very design philosophy.
    What is exclusive? The content is open to everyone, i dont understand.

    -edit-

    It seems like ppl are pointing their fingers at the gear when they should be pointing it at the design of the dungeon itself.

    So here are a few proposed changes to the dungeon and you guys tell me how long you would run it.

    Dungeon is still infinite. Dungeon Rotates 9 different maps, each with a different story and different objectives. Dungeon does not scale in difficulty. No matter how deep you get into the dungeon the rewards do not increase. Dungeon rewards are the same chests you get from story/explore dungeons. Every 3 dungeons you complete you gain EXP, some silver, and a random item of blue to exotic quality. The every 3 dungeon reward does not increase the deeper you get into the dungeon.

    Now how many of you would stop doing that dungeon after completing all 9 paths a few times and realizing that the chance of getting an exotic from that dungeon completion is to low to keep attempting it.
    Last edited by Zeek Daniels; 2012-11-13 at 07:07 PM.

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    You...just equated skill with gear.

    I think we've come full circle here. Think this discussion is a lost cause.

    (HAH, get it? LOST cause? LOST Shore?...ok, nevermind. =O )
    I was actually going time spent because I was thinking you'd have to be a bawss to get the infusion gear, but it takes time, and you clearly have to be a bawss in pvp to be a bawss
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  10. #50
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Oh, Anet have added gear disparity and a lovely carrot on a stick, even if its not mandatory its there, like blizz telling us dailies arent mandatory, it doesnt matter, if you have gear disparity its still against the PR they had before release :S I guess only time will tell.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Oh, Anet have added gear disparity and a lovely carrot on a stick, even if its not mandatory its there, like blizz telling us dailies arent mandatory, it doesnt matter, if you have gear disparity its still against the PR they had before release :S I guess only time will tell.
    Gear disparity has always been present at level 80. Theres whites, greens, blues, yellows, and oranges. Been there since day 1. Theres also no carrot on a stick. The gear is just there. Wether you want to get it or not is up to you the player. Same as the content. Its all able to be completed regardless of gear, blizz cant say the same, thats why i dont have a problem with what they are doing.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Except that the content is not gated.
    It is gated. It says so right on the blog.

    I quoted it and posted it like twice now.

    There is no gate.
    The gate is on the higher difficulty settings not on the maps.
    Content is gated. Mode Ex+ has a barrier to entry, mode Ex++ has a barrier to entry, mode Ex+++.. you get the idea.

    That is 100% gated content. There is no logical argument to made in contra. The developers say this so so directly with no ambiguity.

    Not only is that system gated, it is also by all rights bimodal end of game content.

    Diablo 3 has the same exact method of gating. Its a gear check.

    Just because it says gear progression does not mean its the same progression that you know from other games.
    It does mean the same. Anet even placed an example of ascended gear being linear progression.

    They call it their gear progression initiative and cite specifically high-end play. It says these words right on the blog. In literal black text on white.

    I actually appreciate Anet not wiggling out of this idea and being upfront about it. Again, a spade is a spade. We have the developer not only telling use a spade is a spade but showing their hand openly.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Yea that is what they should have done. The problem is prolly that what do you do about all the existing exotic sets? Do they get the infusion slots too? Do i need to go back and acquire another full dungeon set cuz my current set doesnt have infusion slots. Also think about this. The current content in GW2 doesnt need infusion slots to complete the challenges. So why add them to the existing gear. The new content also doesnt require infusion slots at its base level. So ppl in exotics and lower can complete that content just like any other content.

    By making a new "tier" only needed in a certain dungeon, wait lemme rephrase that, By making a new "tier" that is only needed in the highest of difficulties in a repeatable dungeon that anyone can do any number of times on any difficulty they wish.

    They could actually still of had ascended armor just make the have the same stats as exotics but with an infusion slot. That way you separate FoM dungeons from storymode/explorable dungeons.
    -still not a gear treadmill-
    SO it's ONLY required for PvE; I guess we forget WvW uses PvE gear now.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Oh, Anet have added gear disparity and a lovely carrot on a stick, even if its not mandatory its there, like blizz telling us dailies arent mandatory, it doesnt matter, if you have gear disparity its still against the PR they had before release :S I guess only time will tell.
    I was wondering when you'd join the fray of circular arguments that involve repeating the same stuff over and over again!!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It is gated. It says so right on the blog.

    I quoted it and posted it like twice now.




    Content is gated. Mode Ex+ has a barrier to entry, mode Ex++ has a barrier to entry, mode Ex+++.. you get the idea.

    That is 100% gated content. There is no logical argument to made in contra. The developers say this so so directly with no ambiguity.

    Not only is that system gated, it is also by all rights bimodal end of game content.

    Diablo 3 has the same exact method of gating. Its a gear check.



    It does mean the same. Anet even placed an example of ascended gear being linear progression.

    They call it their gear progression initiative and cite specifically high-end play. It says these words right on the blog. In literal black text on white.

    I actually appreciate Anet not wiggling out of this idea and being upfront about it. Again, a spade is a spade. We have the developer not only telling use a spade is a spade but showing their hand openly.

    Wow... Content difficulty settings gates are now content gates? It is not the same thing fencers. Easy, Medium, Hard, Legendary, Inferno, Heroic, Superdeeduper Mode are just difficulties. They are not content. Mobs increasing in health is not content. Im pretty sure all the players who left diablo 3 didnt leave because the difficulty kept increasing after normal. It was because it was the same thing over and over again. If you bought a game and beat it and the developer announced DLC and you bought the DLC and all that was in the DLC was added mob hp and mob dmg. Is that New Content? or is that just an increase in difficulty?

    Anet isnt gating what they are selling. They are not putting barriers infront of new things. Come release i can go into any of those 9 paths know the strategy and kill the bosses, beat the objectives and get the rewards in my current gear. There thats it content cleared. Thats what Anet promised, that everyone can see the content no matter how much you play or how dedicated you are.

    Difficulty is different. Your playing the same map as everyone one else just with harder hitting mobs. If these mobs keep hitting harder then your going to hit a gear wall. What do you propose we do then Fencers. I would like you to explain how this scaling dungeon would work under the current gear system. How far would ppl get in difficulty b4 they had to stop?

    Difficulty Gate is not a Content Gate.

    -edit-

    k fencers im reading the blog and im having trouble finding where it says they are gating content. Infact the only thing in the blog that has 'gate' in it was mitagate and i found that word 3 times. =O

    I really wish someone would answer my question about how they would design an infinite dungeon that actually keeps players playing.
    Last edited by Zeek Daniels; 2012-11-13 at 07:58 PM.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    1) If there's no way to get the system to work within the stated design goals of the game, then it's really probably not the best addition to the game.

    2) Your question implies that we'll have to eternally get more and more gear to advance further and further into this dungeon. After you get Ascended gear, will the dungeon still be infinite? Will you eventually need Super gear? And Super Duper gear after that? Then Incredible gear?
    I got this Zeek!!

    As he's said earlier no, you just add better and better infusions where say agony ends up ticking 90% health per second you throw in some -agony dmg % (IE makes agony tick for less % of health not make you resist %s of agony) and that brings it back down to like 5% health or something so you can keep going.

    Once again, with how they have ascension gear and infusions + this dungeon they can essentially let all these people chase after an illusionary carrot forever without having to add actual gear progressions (obviously you increase mobs health also an add deal % more dmg to enemies in FoM to allow you to go further and clear earlier waves faster)
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    1) If there's no way to get the system to work within the stated design goals of the game, then it's really probably not the best addition to the game.

    2) Your question implies that we'll have to eternally get more and more gear to advance further and further into this dungeon. After you get Ascended gear, will the dungeon still be infinite? Will you eventually need Super gear? And Super Duper gear after that? Then Incredible gear?
    I actually already solved #2. Anet would not have to add super gear or super duper gear after. Just introduce stronger infusions then previously available That would allow players to progress further. But i do like how you brought up this bolded part. The dungeon never ends right? So why again are you doing it? You said it yourself even with ascended gear your going to hit a wall, and adding stronger infusions will only push the wall further, and further with stronger ones and further with stronger ones. Anet seems to be trolling here if you as me. The whole design of this dungeon is that of a treadmill, and no its not a gear treadmill, just a treadmill of pointlessness. The rewards for getting deep have to be really good for ppl to want to continue doing it but if the rewards are to good then ppl that dont want to do the dungeon will be furious because now your forcing them to participate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Once again, with how they have ascension gear and infusions + this dungeon they can essentially let all these people chase after an illusionary carrot forever without having to add actual gear progressions (obviously you increase mobs health also an add deal % more dmg to enemies in FoM to allow you to go further and clear earlier waves faster)
    This is basically why this dungeon is trolling. I mean come on guys it has no ending. Yall are getting worked up for nothing and someone at Anet is laughing right now.
    Last edited by Zeek Daniels; 2012-11-13 at 08:06 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    To be fair, we're only repeating the same stuff over and over because we've got a few folks taking the, "Say there are five lights!" approach to this.
    Without taking any position here, I have to say:

    I love you for this quote.

  19. #59
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    LF2M FoTM (dat acronym...)

    Must link Ascended gear!!!!!

    Welcome to 2007. GW2 now has hit and resist gear. And according to the blog post, I'm going to have to run these dungeons for WvW because that is not a small jump in stats that they showed.

    They just did everything that they preached against. The lack of sub for PvP/WvW is the only thing keeping me around at this point because the PvE is lackluster and other games do it better. Before Ascended gear at least you knew you didn't have to do gear grinds...

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    A little Picard (Well, indirect Picard in this case) spices up any topic!
    David Warner is awesome. He voiced the best video game villain I've seen (Irenicus in BG2).

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