Content Gates Vs Gear Gates

[Mormolyce]

World Of Warcraft has Content gates. In order to do certain things you need to first do X,Y, or Z. In MoP this takes shape in the form of dailies. In order to get access to the gear you need to do raids you are strongly encouraged to do dailies. Now you dont have to do these dailies and can choose to get a full heroic dungeon set and try to do raid content but youll find yourself at a severe disadvantage and you will more than likely not be able to see all the content raiding has to offer.

I know it's kind of beside your main point but this is completely false. Like many, many guilds mine cleared all of MSV the first week it opened without a single piece of that rep gear, it was not a huge disadvantage by any means. It's just that gamers have an obsessive min/max mindset where a disadvantage of any size automatically equals a massive disadvantage. If it's possible to be 0.0001% better geared then it is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY that you be.

(Actually this is a major issue with the concept of content gating and gear progression - a large part of it is due to the mindset of players. You didn't play 24/7 for months to improve your damage by 1%? OMG what a noob!!!)

A better example of gear-gated content in WoW would be say heroic modes which are tuned to require at least a few pieces of normal mode gear. Although world-first guilds down many if not all of these heroic modes in a week or two with very little of that gear, so for them at least that gate is not unpassable (little harder for us mere mortals :P). More accurate might be that beyond the first tier of an expansion subsequent tiers are tuned to the level of the previous one (roughly NM previous tier level?).

[Osprey39]

Also as to the WvW posts. I havent been in WvW since launch, been to busy with school and mainly focusing on PvE and Spvp. I wouldnt have thought gear mattered that much when ppl are just beating on walls and doors, maybe it matters in small scale fights for resource camps but i dont think the stats provide that much of a shift. Also Anet should not allow infusions to work against other players. If they do even i will be complaining.

lol, I can't tell if you are being serious here or if this is a cleverly hidden swipe at WvW by a sPvP player. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assume it's the former and answer accordingly. You aren't always just pounding on doors and walls in WvW. In fact, there are siege engines that do a much better job of that than an axe or a sword. The reason why gear matters is that you have to eliminate defending players at some point in order to capture structures and the best way to do that is to kill them. While it's true that you don't have a whole lot of 1v1s in WvW, I don't know a single serious WvW player that would not want the best gear possible. 7% stat difference could mean the difference between you living and dying and consequently you throwing down a heal that keeps 4 or 5 allies up long enough to kill an opposing group of 4 or 5 people that are holding down a supply camp with siege engines. In other words, yes it matters and yes it is bullshit to a WvW player who has already completed their gear set.

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:06 PM ----------

Gear disparity has always been present at level 80. Theres whites, greens, blues, yellows, and oranges. Been there since day 1. Theres also no carrot on a stick. The gear is just there. Wether you want to get it or not is up to you the player. Same as the content. Its all able to be completed regardless of gear, blizz cant say the same, thats why i dont have a problem with what they are doing.

This is your weakest argument yet. There's no true gear disparity at 80 currently. Exotics are not at all hard to obtain and you don't need to do any SPECIFIC content in order to get them. Now there is going to be something better than exotics. I would have to agree with the earlier poster that said you might as well support a full blown raiding endgame.

I was, and still am, a huge supporter of this game but this is a pretty earthshaking moment for me. I don't play other MMOs because I don't want to have to work them like a 2nd job to stay competitive in gear. I'm not saying FoM is going to make it where you have to work GW2 like a 2nd job but it is definitely going to open the door for that to come later.

[Zeek Daniels]

I know it's kind of beside your main point but this is completely false. Like many, many guilds mine cleared all of MSV the first week it opened without a single piece of that rep gear, it was not a huge disadvantage by any means. It's just that gamers have an obsessive min/max mindset where a disadvantage of any size automatically equals a massive disadvantage. If it's possible to be 0.0001% better geared then it is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY that you be.

Yea your not getting my point. You said you cleared it the first week. Is that the first week it was available or the first week MoP launched? Was your group in full Greens or at least moslty greens being a fresh 90 and cleared it? I dont think so. You had time to get better gear aka blues of ilvl what is it 636 or somthing? In order to do that raid. You cant be a fresh 90 and expect to do raid content in full greens. You have to have at least some blues if you expect to kill somthing. Its not like this in GW2. Fresh 80's can do anything.

im looking at when MV was released, Oct 2nd, thats over a week after MoP was released. Meaning you and your guild had time to "gear up" even if you didnt get any epics in order to clear the content. If MV was available day 1 ppl wouldnt have been able to kill bosses for at least a few days, and its not because they didnt know the fights. Its because their gear wasnt good enough.

[Svifnymr]

I was, and still am, a huge supporter of this game but this is a pretty earthshaking moment for me. I don't play other MMOs because I don't want to have to work them like a 2nd job to stay competitive in gear. I'm not saying FoM is going to make it where you have to work GW2 like a 2nd job but it is definitely going to open the door for that to come later.

I'm avoiding the gear treadmill as much as possible, but the way this looks to me is that you run FoM 20 times in order to get the gear to run it 30 times, so I'm not really worried about that directly. It'll depend on how stuff goes down the line though, really. We don't know, so getting too bent out of shape on it is a bit premature.

The only thing that gets iffy is how much the actual stat bonus is in regards to WvWvW.

[Osprey39]

I'm avoiding the gear treadmill as much as possible, but the way this looks to me is that you run FoM 20 times in order to get the gear to run it 30 times, so I'm not really worried about that directly. It'll depend on how stuff goes down the line though, really. We don't know, so getting too bent out of shape on it is a bit premature.

The only thing that gets iffy is how much the actual stat bonus is in regards to WvWvW.

I totally agree with you and I am staying level headed about it for now. Truth be told, I don't think getting the 3 pieces of gear that will be initially available will be that hard to obtain but that's not the point. The point is I have full exotics except for rings and accessories and now I'm going to have to go farm some other stuff that is better and that was something we were told we wouldn't have to do.

WvW is my favorite part of the game but I do run dungeons to get certain items I like the look of or items with stats that are not currently craftable. I could just as easily use gear with a slightly different stat configuration and it wouldn't make that much of a difference because it is the same overall power. In other words, I'm just tweaking things by getting that dungeon gear and I don't really need that stuff. If I understand this correctly, the ascended gear is going to actually have higher stats than the current exotics which means you will need to obtain it or you will be effectively undergeared vs. people that do get it. That might be ok in games like WoW or Rift but it flies in the face of what a Guild Wars game has always been about.

The fear I have is that I don't see an end to this. If I am correct in assuming that they did this to appeal to the people looking for gear progression, then what will they do when those same people get all the new gear and start complaining about lack of character progression again? There are two possible answers there. Either they say screw 'em and halt the gear progression where it is or they put in more gear progression. The cynic in me can't see why they would have introduced gear progression into the game in the first place if they intended to stop at one tier of it.

[Zeek Daniels]

This is your weakest argument yet. There's no true gear disparity at 80 currently. Exotics are not at all hard to obtain and you don't need to do any SPECIFIC content in order to get them. Now there is going to be something better than exotics. I would have to agree with the earlier poster that said you might as well support a full blown raiding endgame.

I dont know what type of GW2 player you are but im not doing CoF runs on my Ele to get a exotic dungeon set. im getting that set so i can look cool. I dont care what stats are on those items ill just transmute them later when i find what i want. When this new gear comes out do you know what the first thought thats gonna cross my mind? How do i get to the FoTM dungeon so i can go complete it; Not, Where is the FoTM dungeon i need to start running it so i can get the BiS gear it offers.

For a person who plays GW2 you shouldnt care about BiS gear. Its not important. The content itself is important to me. I am still allowed access to that content at an easy skill level and am able to complete it with my crappy greens and exotic CoF gear that isnt even homogenized with my traits yet. All i care about is the content. All you all care about is BiS gear and its sad. Until BiS gear is required to to do content you guys argument doesnt have legs. When and if Anet decides to block content with BiS gear i will be joining you guys. Until then im going to enjoy every single piece of content they offer and not worry about how bad my gear is because i can still complete it.

[Osprey39]

I dont know what type of GW2 player you are but im not doing CoF runs on my Ele to get a exotic dungeon set. im getting that set so i can look cool. I dont care what stats are on those items ill just transmute them later when i find what i want. When this new gear comes out do you know what the first thought thats gonna cross my mind? How do i get to the FoTM dungeon so i can go complete it; Not, Where is the FoTM dungeon i need to start running it so i can get the BiS gear it offers.

For a person who plays GW2 you shouldnt care about BiS gear. Its not important. The content itself is important to me. I am still allowed access to that content at an easy skill level and am able to complete it with my crappy greens and exotic CoF gear that isnt even homogenized with my traits yet. All i care about is the content. All you all care about is BiS gear and its sad. Until BiS gear is required to to do content you guys argument doesnt have legs. When and if Anet decides to block content with BiS gear i will be joining you guys. Until then im going to enjoy every single piece of content they offer and not worry about how bad my gear is because i can still complete it.

Couple of things here. You don't WvW, I do. I want the best equipment available to me so that I am not going out to the borderlands at reduced effectiveness. It does make a difference and you can feel the difference between wearing all rares vs. all exotics hence most serious WvW players opt for all exotics. It's a no-brainer. The thing about exotics is that they are pretty easy to obtain from several different sources. My character I'm playing now is currently wearing exotic items obtained from crafting, dungeons, karma vendors and one of the Khilbron loot drop pieces. In other words, I didn't have to do any specific content to obtain this stuff. There were plenty of options. That is about to change if you want the best stuff.

Secondly, you say you want to see the content and that's great. I haven't even done all the dungeons yet nor do I care if I ever do them. People are different, alert the media!

I'd like to point out a snippet from an article I just found with a quote from an A-net developer:

“Our desire is to create a game that is more inclusive for hardcore and casual players alike, but we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level,” ArenaNet Game Designer Linsey Murdock wrote. “Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later.”

They are making a huge mistake here IMO. We have all heard the old saying that when you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one and that is exactly what they are doing. They are trying to add item progression to appeal to WoW style MMO players but I would almost guarantee it won't be enough to sate them and get them to drop whatever real progression game they play to come spend money in the GW2 gem shop (let's not kid ourselves, this is the real impetus behind this move.) What it will do is alienate people that came to this game to get away from item progression games. WvW on my tier 1 server is already gotten to a point where we seldom have a queue for any of our borderlands. There are tons of players on Blackgate that only do WvW and this will drive even more players away because they are not interested in doing dungeons for gear progression.

[Zeek Daniels]

And on that note, what do you think the chances are that the next dungeon will really, really "encourage" you to already have some Infusion right from the start?

From the way i read the blog and posts on news sites is that "new end game content" releated to the Ascended items and infusions will only be fore the FotM dungeon. They dont have to release new dungeons because the FotM dungeon can just be expanded. So you know how WoW has to add in new raids every tier to expand on content. Anet stated that they will expand on the current FotM dungeon in later updates. So since 9 dungeons are already in the rotation they can just add 3 more at a time. So instead of you needing Ascended gear and infusions to do these new parts, you can actually just do them on the lowest difficulty like you had been doing with the others. This way no content is barred from the player. The only thing gated is the difficulty which will require more armors and more infusions to be released in future patches for players that want to keep advancing in difficulty, notice how i didnt say advancing in the dungeon. So no matter how many more dungeons they add to the rotation players of all types will be able to participate no matter what gear they own.

Anet is asking you the player to make a decision. Do you want to get on the treadmill? or would you rather only run a mile?
Me im choosing to run a mile, maybe when summer roles around and a graduate ill hop on the treadmill for a bit. But tbh i dont see why ppl would even want to run the same dungeon over and over again just to gain the ability to keep running it over and over again.

[Sylvanie]

From the way i read the blog and posts on news sites is that "new end game content" releated to the Ascended items and infusions will only be fore the FotM dungeon.

No. According to the new announcement, ascended gear will be an integral part of the new gear progression:

"Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards."

I am not sure how they think that suddenly going from legendary stats = exotic stats to legendary stats > ascended stats > exotic stats is going to make people feel better about ArenaNet reneging on their promises. Let alone that apparently the plan is to make the legendary grind not really be an optional part of the game anymore but part of gear progression.

[Notos]

As long as they make ascended gear obtainable through multiple means like exotics are, I have no problem with it (despite Anet essentially going back on their word with their design philosophy for the game), but if you can only obtain the gear through the new dungeon...well that's kind of a slap in the face to WvW players and crafters.

[Osprey39]

As long as they make ascended gear obtainable through multiple means like exotics are, I have no problem with it (despite Anet essentially going back on their word with their design philosophy for the game), but if you can only obtain the gear through the new dungeon...well that's kind of a slap in the face to WvW players and crafters.

Forgot about crafters but you are exactly right on that point. I shouldn't have forgot since I have spent the time to max out all 3 armor skills and 2 of the weapon skills. I only make stuff for myself and guildmates but I still put time and money into that.

[BlairPhoenix]

In the end, you can't please everyone. As for ANet going back on their word, some of you act like ANet hasn't done this before. Personally, I'm just going to wait and see how things pan out before I give out judgments.

[Deleted]

As long as they make ascended gear obtainable through multiple means like exotics are, I have no problem with it (despite Anet essentially going back on their word with their design philosophy for the game), but if you can only obtain the gear through the new dungeon...well that's kind of a slap in the face to WvW players and crafters.

they said

Studio Design Director Chris Whiteside posted a fairly long post on the official forums giving us more information on Ascended items in response to the outcry. In particular, he has stated that Ascended items will be available through other means than running the dungeon, such as World Vs World and PvE. He emphasizes that they do not want players to have to chase after a new set of gear in order to stay relevant, but want to offer an in-between for the Exotic and Legendary rarity levels to fill the large gap that currently exists.

[solarbear]

It shows how they have become huge liars. They promised no gear treadmills and 3 months in here they come.

At least they could be honest and rename the game Warcrap Jr. Because this is only the first step.

[VincentWolf]

If you're losing to a +15 power increase, then I hate to say it's not the gear you are losing to...

It's much more than just 15 power. It's 13 per item. Around 39 per first 3 items. Now let's imagine one player versus another. One does farms these dungeons and has full set, another doesn't. Around 150 difference in stats can make a difference.

Why do you want the best gear in the game? Are you out in EB soloing points?

None of your business. Feel of complition. Feel of being equal to everyone.

Guess what bud, you are going to have to make sacrifices monetarily for your legendary even if they didn't add a new tier of gear, but added something else you would want. That's the sacrifice yuou make for a legendary. You either sit on other shit you want, or you sit on your legendary for awhile longer.

That's the point. Already too much sacrifices for legendary. And they add more items to buy? I'd have no problems if it was cosmetic items through cash shop or tp, but actual gear upgrades is a bullshit.

Quit, go play your Xbox. Guess where GW2 will still be while you're away. That's right, here, still free.

Yes it will be. But it will be much emptier than before this update, because if you bothered to read their official forums you'd see that there was 50+pages full of rage barely couple hours after they posted patch notes. I'm scared to think what's going on there now. Unless they started to remove all negative posts, like they tend to do often.

[mafao]

Studio Design Director Chris Whiteside posted a fairly long post on the official forums giving us more information on Ascended items in response to the outcry. In particular, he has stated that Ascended items will be available through other means than running the dungeon, such as World Vs World and PvE. He emphasizes that they do not want players to have to chase after a new set of gear in order to stay relevant, but want to offer an in-between for the Exotic and Legendary rarity levels to fill the large gap that currently exists.

What I don't get about this explanation: the legendary isn't supposed to have higher stats than exotics. So now they do? I don't have any problem with having higher-level PvE items (and I think that infusion mechanics is a really neat solution to high-end PVE progression), but if there is noticeable stat increase from the exotics, we are really starting to talk about gear treadmill here.

[Zeek Daniels]

What I don't get about this explanation: the legendary isn't supposed to have higher stats than exotics. So now they do? I don't have any problem with having higher-level PvE items (and I think that infusion mechanics is a really neat solution to high-end PVE progression), but if there is noticeable stat increase from the exotics, we are really starting to talk about gear treadmill here.

Yea the current legendary weapons were not higher than exotics. But they were not just going to stop their. They also want to add legendary armors and even more legendary weapons. And they prolly decided that they needed to be stronger than exotics. Thats the gap they are talking about.

[Sylvanie]

What I don't get about this explanation: the legendary isn't supposed to have higher stats than exotics. So now they do? I don't have any problem with having higher-level PvE items (and I think that infusion mechanics is a really neat solution to high-end PVE progression), but if there is noticeable stat increase from the exotics, we are really starting to talk about gear treadmill here.

My most optimistic interpretation is that they mean the following:

Ascended gear has somewhat higher stats than exotic gear (about +8% if the screenshots on the blog post are representative) and takes longer to obtain than exotic gear.
Legendary gear has the same stats as ascended gear, but better looks (and takes longer to obtain than ascended gear).

Item progression under this model occurs along two axes, looks and stats:

Ascended gear = exotic gear + extra stats.
Legendary gear = ascended gear + looks = exotic gear + extra stats + looks.

I'm not sure whether that's actually the case, but that seems to be the sanest explanation; I wish we could get hard facts rather than a bunch of corporate-speak (don't these people understand that lathering "exciting" and similar stock phrases all over their text only makes it sound more evasive?).

Open questions:

(1) What's the expected duration of the ascended gear grind?
(2) How much of future content will be balanced around the assumption that players have ascended gear?
(3) With multiple types of infusion slots/infusions, will players be expected to maintain different sets of gear?
(4) If ascended gear is the final tier of gear (at least for now), are infusion bonuses also capped or open-ended?

Overall, yes, while it may be a finite gear treadmill (or not, if the treadmill continues indefinitely via infusions), it still smells like a gear treadmill.

[mafao]

Yea the current legendary weapons were not higher than exotics. But they were not just going to stop their. They also want to add legendary armors and even more legendary weapons. And they prolly decided that they needed to be stronger than exotics. Thats the gap they are talking about.

Well, Zeek, but that sounds exactly like gear threadmil, doesn't it? Exactly that kind of thing GW2 was supposed not to have.

Now, I am perfectly ok with an insubstantial attribute scores increase. E.g. if the overall performance of a fully ascended/legendary geared character is only 1% higher than that of a exotic-geared character, its still ok in my book - it gives the hardcore PvE players the feeling (albeit an illusory one) of progression while factually not changing anything. In this game, 1% means nothing - you will still go down in two-three hits and whether you need 1 minute or 59 seconds to burn down a boss doesn't really matter.

However, if the stat increase is more substantial it becomes a problem. Given the example ring they showed us, we are talking about around 10% more points per attribute. Two rings and a backpack will thus give you around +25/15/15 points, which is pretty much an insubstantial increase (e.g. if we talk vitality, its just 150-200 additional hp, which won't give you any real benefit). But what happens if we have more ascended item types? Right now, a full exotic gear with upgrades, provided streamlined attribute investment, gives you something along 925/644/644 points (in addition to the 916 'natural' points). A 10% increase would be additional +92/64/64. Or a 5% overall bonus to your total attribute. Now, having 5% more health or dealing 5% more damage is a huge difference.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 02:05 PM ----------

...

I agree with everything you say. Let's see how these ascended items look in the game, maybe we are just having lots of fuss about nothing. Again, we only had one single item to base our conclusions on.

A note about infusions: I actually like this mechanics, as it creates an opportunity for content-specific progression without increasing the power curve overall. Its really neat. You can have your infusions which let you do these ultra-hard dungeons, but you will still get your ass kicked in WvWvW just as anybody else despite your fancy gear. Now if they didn't have increased attributes, I'd be happy.

[Zeek Daniels]

Well, Zeek, but that sounds exactly like gear threadmil, doesn't it? Exactly that kind of thing GW2 was supposed not to have.

Not true. Your confusing Optional Gear with Manditory Gear. GW2 has alot of optional gear sets. Gear treadmills have 1 manditory gear set. The difference is how much content is accessible without obtaining certain gear. In a gear treadmill game you may not be able to complete certain dungeons or normal raids because your gear is sub par. GW2 on the other hand doesnt limit you content wise based on your gear. Once you are level 80 you can complete any activity you want. This isnt true of a gear treadmill game.

Yes adding a new tier makes it seem like you have to go get it and seems like your on a gear treadmill. But if content isnt limited to those who only have this new tier then its not a gear treadmill. Its just a new set of gear that is optional for those that want it. Just like how legendary acquisition works. Those who put the time and money into acquiring legendary weapons got no content benefit from the weapon. They arnt able to all of a sudden do something that a person without a legendary weapon cant. Its optional for the players who want progression type gameplay. For those that dont they are able to do the same content (FotM dungeon) without having to acquire the new tier.