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  1. #1
    Blademaster bigdom510's Avatar
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    Need help with building a new computer

    Hey guys. I'm going to attempt to build my own computer. I have around $700 and i've been looking around on Newegg.com and tigerdirect.com, checking out some prices and setups. But my problem is i don't really know anything about computers, i know what does what and basic things but i have no idea about good processors, motherboards, graphics or anything. So i would like to see if anyone could find a good computer for me in my budget.

    So heres what i want to do with it:
    1. play all kinds of MMO's (mostly world of warcraft)
    2. stream those games and stream some xbox games (maybe)
    3. I'm in school right now for Drafting Technology and i use Revit, AutoCAD, and solidworks (so i wanted something that has a ton of memory and will make my projects look good)
    4. I think i want AMD (because i heard they are better for gaming, i really have no idea what the difference between the two are)
    5. 550w-650w power supply
    6. I want it to look amazing (good graphics)
    7. Possible being about to run multiple monitors

    I know that this is probably really hard to do with my budget so i want something that i can be able to upgrade easily.

    Thanks a lot guys hopefully someone out there can help me out lol
    -Bigdom

  2. #2
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  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    First: Prioritize what you want to do with your computer.

    If it's a gaming computer build it for gaming. If it's for Auto-Cad/3D/Video you build it for that activity.

    The reason why is gaming computers use different hardware than workstations (you don't want to use a workstation videocard for a gaming computer, and vice versa).

    If you just dabble in Auto-CAD/3D/video production you can just use a gaming computer setup, but trying to fit both in one rig will be difficult without compromising performance for each. Most game computers have a memory limit of 32GB anyway, and if you really into Auto-CAD/3D/video you will want what a workstation can offer.

    BUT, workstations will cost much more than $700. A good computer for doing both will definitely cost more than $700 (mine cost over $2,000 for parts alone).

    Thus, pick what you will primarily use the computer for and build for that purpose. You'll get better performance and bang for the buck that way, instead of being frustrated (as I know from 3D modelling on an old P4 with 2GB of memory was frustrating to no end).
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  4. #4
    Blademaster bigdom510's Avatar
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    Thanks a ton for those sample builds i like a few of those.
    As for the info one:
    Budget= ~$700
    Resolution=???? dont really know
    Games/ settings required= i just want to be able to play MMO's with good quality, and be able to stream it, doesnt have to be the best out there and i dont have to be on ultra but i want it to be nice and not choppy
    Country= US
    Parts that can be re used= i dont want to use anything that i have, my computer was built in 2006-2007 and everything is old
    OS= i do need a OS i would like windows 8, but most likely windows 7 since it would be cheaper
    Do you need peripherals= No i have a 24" HD Acer moniter, Logitech G15 keyboard, Logitech G600 mouse, and Trition Xbox headset

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 09:09 PM ----------

    Well for this computer i want it for gaming and streaming. When i was donig my internship for a company doing Revit i had a company laptop, so i'm not really worried about that. I just wanted to be able to look at them and maybe make some changes if im not at work/school, and im sure i would be able to do that on a gaming computer. So i primarily want a computer for gaming and streaming. Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    First: Prioritize what you want to do with your computer.

    If it's a gaming computer build it for gaming. If it's for Auto-Cad/3D/Video you build it for that activity.

    The reason why is gaming computers use different hardware than workstations (you don't want to use a workstation videocard for a gaming computer, and vice versa).

    If you just dabble in Auto-CAD/3D/video production you can just use a gaming computer setup, but trying to fit both in one rig will be difficult without compromising performance for each. Most game computers have a memory limit of 32GB anyway, and if you really into Auto-CAD/3D/video you will want what a workstation can offer.

    BUT, workstations will cost much more than $700. A good computer for doing both will definitely cost more than $700 (mine cost over $2,000 for parts alone).

    Thus, pick what you will primarily use the computer for and build for that purpose. You'll get better performance and bang for the buck that way, instead of being frustrated (as I know from 3D modelling on an old P4 with 2GB of memory was frustrating to no end).


    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 09:11 PM ----------

    Also i would like to add that i know people see these posts all the time, and so do i, but the difference is i would like a little bit of an explanation on what things are and why it is better/worse, whats good for gaming/streaming, and whats not. Instead of buy this and buy that from this site and that site. As i said i dont know much about computers and i'm trying to learn. Thanks

  5. #5
    Well, $700 and wanting to be able to stream well is asking a bit much.

    This is about $50 over budget, but is about the minimum I would want to go with if trying to stream. I am not even sure this would be able to stream that well. If you really want to stream well you need to consider an i7-3770K, which is almost $100 more than the one in this build. Here it is though.

    PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

    CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($169.99 @ Microcenter)
    Motherboard: ASRock Z77 Pro3 ATX LGA1155 Motherboard ($102.55 @ Newegg)
    Memory: G.Skill Sniper 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($38.99 @ Newegg)
    Storage: Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($78.24 @ SuperBiiz)
    Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 650 Ti 2GB Video Card ($179.99 @ Amazon)
    Case: Rosewill CHALLENGER ATX Mid Tower Case ($39.99 @ Newegg)
    Power Supply: XFX ProSeries 450W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($42.99 @ NCIX US)
    Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD/CD Writer ($17.99 @ Newegg)
    Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (64-bit) ($99.99 @ Newegg)
    Total: $748.72
    (Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
    (Generated by PCPartPicker 2012-11-09 00:17 EST-0500)

    I could definitely put something together that would come in under budget, but it would probably not be able to stream effectively at all.
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  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post

    Also i would like to add that i know people see these posts all the time, and so do i, but the difference is i would like a little bit of an explanation on what things are and why it is better/worse, whats good for gaming/streaming, and whats not. Instead of buy this and buy that from this site and that site. As i said i dont know much about computers and i'm trying to learn. Thanks
    Post above is pretty good if willing to make compromises (you won't get pro quality 3D work out of a $700 rig, so compromises will have to be made). i5 is a good processor to build from as it's mid-tier. Not the best, but not the worst and you save cash. Most motherboards that can accept i5s can also accept i7s, so you can upgrade later when you have the money. 8GB of DDR-3 memory is the standard now.

    Pro tips to always remember about build your own computers:

    1. It's important to get the best motherboard you can afford for just that reason -- to upgrade. Make sure to goto the manufactuer's website for the particular motherboard and look up 2 things -- what memory it can use (especially it's clock speed and timings) and what video card. That will save you a ton of woe. I'm finding AsRock motherboards are pretty darn good for the price (AsRock is a division of Asus, so it's not some cheap knockoff company). It's what I have powering 2 $2,000+ rigs, 24/7.

    2. Get the best PSU you can afford -- never ever skimp on a PSU, cheap PSUs can literally blow up (especially under the workload of a heavy gamer) and destroy everything. You want at least 600 watts and 42A for the 12v rails (as that's what the newer video cards require to operate -- so look up the technical info to make sure [Newegg will list it]). More 5v rails = more fan and accessory options too. I personally stick with Seasonic PSUs, simply because they underrate their power (600 watts really is more like 680...extra cold start power) and they last. Still have a Seasonic 600watt from 5 years ago. Rock solid rails (does not go below or above 12/5/3.3 volts).

    3. Memory: Buy the 2 or 4 memory stick kits -- matched memory is more stable. Try to use only 2 sticks (4 sticks causes power issues in a lot of motherboards, save the headaches). Also, lower the numbers (not higher) is better. So if you see 2 sticks and one is 9-9-9-9 and 8-9-8-8 get the latter. Every clock cycle that is lower = faster output. Stick with tried and true brands for quality assurance -- Corsair; Crucial; G.Skill; Mushkin and Patriot. Have a very nice set of G.Skill Ripjaw X 2133mhz and find that brand trouble free (all memory higher than 1066mhz is overclocked, just so you know. If you put 2133mhz memory in a motherboard if the SPD isn't recognized it'll default to 800mhz, which is default speed of DDR3. Saying this as some get confused..."I bought 2133mhz but it's only showing 800!!!"). Newer motherboards and memory now do all the timings for you, so you don't need to mess with them. Just leave those timings alone until you know how to overclock (one bad move there, bye bye memory, or worse motherboard).

    4. Video card: Player choice. If you want to do Folding or SETI, no doubt use Nvidia. AMD video cards is what I prefer due to longevity (don't like replacing $300+ every year because a Nvidia card dies just at the end of it's warranty -- EVGA/XFX you name it quality brands, die, kaput, killswitch material )

    5. HDD: If you don't store important stuff on your computer (or backup often) RAID-0 2 hard drives (default settings are fine). Faster output. It's gamer preferred (let alone if you want to move video faster). SATA 6.0 drives with 64KB directories are preferred (larger directory = faster lookups). The Western Digital Black 1TB series tend to be the overall favorite (good drives, good warranty...as they can and do fail). One MAJOR suggestion: buy the HDD from Amazon, not Newegg. Newegg puts them lose in a box full of air pockets and/or packing peanuts...stuff that ruins HDD from physical damage. Amazon ships them in a easy to open form fitting cardboard OEM box with anti-shock ends (Amazon is great with packaging, so much so I don't use Newegg anymore, the price difference is not worth having to go through returns because a UPS gorilla dropped your box).

    Yes, I love computer hardware.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
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  7. #7
    Blademaster bigdom510's Avatar
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    Thank you so much for taking so much time out to try and explain this to me i really really appreciate it. This is giving me a better look at what i need to know and some ideas that i should probably think about before jumping into building my own rig .
    I do like some of most of the AsRock motherboards, that is what i will most likely get. But i wanted to know about processors what is better for gaming, intel or amd?? I've heard a lot of good and bad things from both, and i have no idea what the difference even is. From what it looks like you can get the same speed from AMD for half the price (as i said before i have no idea really what i'm looking at or for in things like this) newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103727, is 3.4Ghz for $99, but newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116501, is 3.5Ghz for $319???? why is that? should i go with AMD or Intel?? What's the difference what am i looking for?
    As for everything else, i'm pretty sure i generally understand the rest. I need enough memory to run everything at once, I need a good PSU to power everything, and a HDD to store everything with good speed to read everything.
    Video Cards though, do they have to be a certain brand to fit to certain motherboards? Does the memory of them matter that much?
    Is there anything that i can kind of "skimp" out on to have better graphics or better speed? What parts should i concentrate on more?
    Thanks
    (sorry about the links above i cant link them since i havent done enough posts yet)


    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Post above is pretty good if willing to make compromises (you won't get pro quality 3D work out of a $700 rig, so compromises will have to be made). i5 is a good processor to build from as it's mid-tier. Not the best, but not the worst and you save cash. Most motherboards that can accept i5s can also accept i7s, so you can upgrade later when you have the money. 8GB of DDR-3 memory is the standard now.

    Pro tips to always remember about build your own computers:

    1. It's important to get the best motherboard you can afford for just that reason -- to upgrade. Make sure to goto the manufactuer's website for the particular motherboard and look up 2 things -- what memory it can use (especially it's clock speed and timings) and what video card. That will save you a ton of woe. I'm finding AsRock motherboards are pretty darn good for the price (AsRock is a division of Asus, so it's not some cheap knockoff company). It's what I have powering 2 $2,000+ rigs, 24/7.

    2. Get the best PSU you can afford -- never ever skimp on a PSU, cheap PSUs can literally blow up (especially under the workload of a heavy gamer) and destroy everything. You want at least 600 watts and 42A for the 12v rails (as that's what the newer video cards require to operate -- so look up the technical info to make sure [Newegg will list it]). More 5v rails = more fan and accessory options too. I personally stick with Seasonic PSUs, simply because they underrate their power (600 watts really is more like 680...extra cold start power) and they last. Still have a Seasonic 600watt from 5 years ago. Rock solid rails (does not go below or above 12/5/3.3 volts).

    3. Memory: Buy the 2 or 4 memory stick kits -- matched memory is more stable. Try to use only 2 sticks (4 sticks causes power issues in a lot of motherboards, save the headaches). Also, lower the numbers (not higher) is better. So if you see 2 sticks and one is 9-9-9-9 and 8-9-8-8 get the latter. Every clock cycle that is lower = faster output. Stick with tried and true brands for quality assurance -- Corsair; Crucial; G.Skill; Mushkin and Patriot. Have a very nice set of G.Skill Ripjaw X 2133mhz and find that brand trouble free (all memory higher than 1066mhz is overclocked, just so you know. If you put 2133mhz memory in a motherboard if the SPD isn't recognized it'll default to 800mhz, which is default speed of DDR3. Saying this as some get confused..."I bought 2133mhz but it's only showing 800!!!"). Newer motherboards and memory now do all the timings for you, so you don't need to mess with them. Just leave those timings alone until you know how to overclock (one bad move there, bye bye memory, or worse motherboard).

    4. Video card: Player choice. If you want to do Folding or SETI, no doubt use Nvidia. AMD video cards is what I prefer due to longevity (don't like replacing $300+ every year because a Nvidia card dies just at the end of it's warranty -- EVGA/XFX you name it quality brands, die, kaput, killswitch material )

    5. HDD: If you don't store important stuff on your computer (or backup often) RAID-0 2 hard drives (default settings are fine). Faster output. It's gamer preferred (let alone if you want to move video faster). SATA 6.0 drives with 64KB directories are preferred (larger directory = faster lookups). The Western Digital Black 1TB series tend to be the overall favorite (good drives, good warranty...as they can and do fail). One MAJOR suggestion: buy the HDD from Amazon, not Newegg. Newegg puts them lose in a box full of air pockets and/or packing peanuts...stuff that ruins HDD from physical damage. Amazon ships them in a easy to open form fitting cardboard OEM box with anti-shock ends (Amazon is great with packaging, so much so I don't use Newegg anymore, the price difference is not worth having to go through returns because a UPS gorilla dropped your box).

    Yes, I love computer hardware.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    It's crucial to check what memory modules and video cards will work with your motherboard. Not all memory and video cards will work with all motherboards. Checking saves you the headaches of RMAs and losing money on open box returns (usually a 15-20% of the value of the product). At least it won't work, at worst it'll fry the motherboard and components. Not a good thing.

    AMD as a processor is good if you want to save money. Sometimes they make the most powerful. This time around Intel won the processing race. Price of processors usually depends on speed and cache. Larger the cache expect to spend more money (shared cache is also cheaper). That's the major difference in prices despite that they are the same model family and speed. You can't go wrong with an i5 to start off with, as this gives you a window of opportunity later to upgrade to an i7. The i7 is the best performance processor you can get for your buck, especially the 2600k (the k means it's unlocked for overclocking). If you have a higher budget flat out get it.

    Most videocards are PCIE 2.0 and will work with the newest motherboards. Try to stick with known brands simply for quality control. Sapphire is pretty good for AMD and EVGA for Nvidia. Other brands like XFX, HiS and Asus are good as well, but Sapphire and EVGA are the most popular. Word of caution here though: get a large enough case to fit these newer video cards in. They are extremely long, photos don't do them justice. They will not fit in MicroATX or LAN style computer cases, simply too long. Will need a big mid-tower case at least, and in a mid-tower it will more than likely be a very tight fit. I'm using the huge HAF-X case, and there's only like 3" clearance left from the end of the 7970 video card and the 5.25" cage.

    8GB of memory is the standard now, especially for 64x Windows 7 (and pick up the OEM version to save money).

    Another thing: find a heat/sink fan other than the stock one. The stock is okay, but if you game a lot it won't be enough (unless you goto the extreme on case fans and wire management). Also get a tube of thermal compound (Arctic Silver is the most popular, I use Tuniq) the stuff that comes with the processor is junk. I use the Noctua HSFs, but that will be an overkill for you.

    References from my rig:

    Newer version of the AsRock Extreme 6 motherboard that I use...
    http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.us...mory&Model=Z77

    PSU...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817151087

    Processor...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115070

    HSF...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835608018

    Memory...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231452

    Videocard...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814121560

    HDD...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136533

    DVD...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106348

    Case (almost 32lbs empty - beast!)...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119225

    Replaced 120mm fans with...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835608009

    Replaced 140mm fan with...
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835608017
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Pro tips to always remember about build your own computers:
    Fixing few misunderstandings for posterity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    1. It's important to get the best motherboard you can afford for just that reason -- to upgrade.
    look up 2 things -- what memory it can use (especially it's clock speed and timings) and what video card.
    Yes and no. Usually more expensive motherboards don't have anything to do with upgradeability, but the quality of components (more stable overclocking, Intel network chip instead of Realtek etc) and SLI/Crossfire options. In reality none of that matters for average gaming computer builders, and especially not for $700 budget builders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    (AsRock is a division of Asus, so it's not some cheap knockoff company)
    Not anymore, ASRock's been independent for 6-7 years now. They started as cheap knockoff company to compete with Foxconn on OEM boards, but today Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge boards from ASRock are very good choice for budget-oriented people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    More 5v rails = more fan and accessory options too.
    Almost everything in modern computer uses 12v today, 5v rails is totally irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    So if you see 2 sticks and one is 9-9-9-9 and 8-9-8-8 get the latter. Every clock cycle that is lower = faster output. Stick with tried and true brands for quality assurance -- Corsair; Crucial; G.Skill; Mushkin and Patriot. Have a very nice set of G.Skill Ripjaw X 2133mhz
    Speed of memory is actually derived from dividing the clock speed by latency. Often higher clock speed RAM has higher latency which means zero gain in real throughput. Low latency high clockspeed RAM can cost easily 3-4 times more than normal CL9 1600MHz sticks with about 5% gain. Memory speed above 1600MHz will never show in any gaming use, but when doing some heavy engineering modeling and rendering the OP does faster RAM helps a bit. I still would not put any emphasis on it on a $700 budget and stick with regular 1600MHz/CL9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    AMD video cards is what I prefer due to longevity
    There's no difference in longevity between Nvidia and AMD as a GPU manufacturers. What you have is a case of bad luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    RAID-0 2 hard drives (default settings are fine). Faster output. It's gamer preferred
    Wrong. RAID0 is so yesterday. SSD is gamer preferred and will beat any RAID setups by a magnitude or two in raw speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    SATA 6.0 drives with 64KB directories are preferred
    SATA3 for mechanical HDDs is a marketing trick. Even the fastest regular 7200rpm HDD WD Caviar Black has only 170mb/s sustained transfer rate when copying over large sequential files, ie. in ideal case. SATA1's limit is 150mb/s so you're only barely over that and nowhere even close to SATA2's 300mb/s speed. No mechanical HDD with SATA connector can ever reach the speed that would be bottlenecked by SATA2's 300mb/s.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    But i wanted to know about processors what is better for gaming, intel or amd?? I've heard a lot of good and bad things from both, and i have no idea what the difference even is. From what it looks like you can get the same speed from AMD for half the price
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    AMD as a processor is good if you want to save money. Sometimes they make the most powerful. This time around Intel won the processing race.
    Intel has so big performance lead in WoW over AMD that it's unreal. There's really no competition between the two and no question which is better. Intel has been producing unquestionably better gaming processors since 2008 unless you're aiming for extreme low end price.

    The chart linked above is now almost two years old, but what's come since is AMD FX-8150 which goes between the two old Phenom II's and Intel's Ivy Bridges which perform about 5% better than Sandy Bridges.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    Video Cards though, do they have to be a certain brand to fit to certain motherboards? Does the memory of them matter that much?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    It's crucial to check what memory modules and video cards will work with your motherboard. Not all memory and video cards will work with all motherboards.
    Any PCI Express 2.0 card will work with any modern motherboard with at least one PCI Express 2.0 x16 socket. Brands does not matter. It's urban legend that AMD card would work better with AMD processor. That was the case 15 years ago when Nvidia didn't license SLI technology to anybody and it would only work in Intel boards, but even then single cards worked just fine. What you want from graphics card is GDDR5 RAM, not GDDR3. 1024mb minimum on a low budget like yours. 2048mb would be better for future proofing but not worth paying much extra for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    The i7 is the best performance processor you can get for your buck, especially the 2600k (the k means it's unlocked for overclocking). If you have a higher budget flat out get it.
    2600k was superceded by i7-3770K while back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Another thing: find a heat/sink fan other than the stock one. The stock is okay, but if you game a lot it won't be enough (unless you goto the extreme on case fans and wire management).
    Bit alarmist there. Stock heatsink will work totally fine in regular gaming computer unless you have exceptionally bad case airflow and/or live in a place with high ambient temperature. If you have summers with over 30C temp where you use the computer you should be looking into better CPU cooler and cases with high airflow, but on cooler climates it's not necessary at all.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    2600k was superceded by i7-3770K while back.
    And the 2600K had an within-generation replacement of the 2700K with a better stock clock.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Bit alarmist there. Stock heatsink will work totally fine in regular gaming computer unless you have exceptionally bad case airflow and/or live in a place with high ambient temperature. If you have summers with over 30C temp where you use the computer you should be looking into better CPU cooler and cases with high airflow, but on cooler climates it's not necessary at all.
    Stock heatsink is fine for non-overclock applications. However, since the OP is looking into a 3570K, he should at least get a $20 aftermarket heatsink with a larger tower.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    And the 2600K had an within-generation replacement of the 2700K with a better stock clock.



    Stock heatsink is fine for non-overclock applications. However, since the OP is looking into a 3570K, he should at least get a $20 aftermarket heatsink with a larger tower.
    I agree that the stock cooler is fine. But running a 3570k without asus turbo oc profiles a stock cooler does fine.

  12. #12
    If he goes with the build I posted earlier, he probably would not want to overclock right away. It was already over his budget. To go under his budget would drop to a chip he probably could not OC anyway. If he does go with the build I said, I would not recommend OCing until after buying a better Cooler, though some mild OCing could probably be done, I personally would not risk it.

    With the build I posted above you have the option to later on down the road either buy a better cooler and OC a bit to get a little more performance out of it, or, replace the chip with an i7-3770k and a cooler and OC that to really get a performance gain in your video editing applications. Won't be much difference, if any, gaming with the i5 compared to the i7.

    The other later on upgrade option it leaves is SLI Video cards, or just steeping up into the new generation when it comes out. Either of these would probably also require an upgrade to the PSU, but trying to keep it as close to $700 as I could in that build, so didn't future proof the PSU.
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  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Fixing few misunderstandings for posterity.
    For posterity.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Yes and no. Usually more expensive motherboards don't have anything to do with upgradeability, but the quality of components (more stable overclocking, Intel network chip instead of Realtek etc) and SLI/Crossfire options.
    Who said AsRock motherboards were expensive? Who were referring to expensive motherboards? And who even associated expense that to upgradeability?

    Has no bearing to the discussion at all as it wasn't even mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    In reality none of that matters for average gaming computer builders, and especially not for $700 budget builders.
    Which is why he's looking into the AsRock motherboards.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Not anymore, ASRock's been independent for 6-7 years now. They started as cheap knockoff company to compete with Foxconn on OEM boards, but today Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge boards from ASRock are very good choice for budget-oriented people.
    Please do more research...
    http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/28/a...to-buy-asrock/

    Interesting commentary...
    http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/c...to_buy_asrock/

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Almost everything in modern computer uses 12v today, 5v rails is totally irrelevant.
    Fans and other accessories operate off of 5v. Your case will have more 5v connectors than anything else to power components...even in 2012.

    You still have to monitor 5v activity as well.

    Modern computers has nothing to do with it. Components haven't changed much in 20 years, just the power is increasing (let alone the sizes of those components). Back in the 80s, a 60mm fan was big (and a 100w PSU was enough). Three years ago 120mm fans were big. Today it's not big unless it's over 200mm.

    But they still operate off of 5v rails.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Speed of memory is actually derived from dividing the clock speed by latency. Often higher clock speed RAM has higher latency which means zero gain in real throughput. Low latency high clockspeed RAM can cost easily 3-4 times more than normal CL9 1600MHz sticks with about 5% gain. Memory speed above 1600MHz will never show in any gaming use, but when doing some heavy engineering modeling and rendering the OP does faster RAM helps a bit. I still would not put any emphasis on it on a $700 budget and stick with regular 1600MHz/CL9.
    Scroll up and actually read the OP's request.

    If you truly wanted to help the OP you could've just told him to get 1333mhz memory. As the difference, in gaming from 1333mhz and 1600mhz isn't that much as well...
    http://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=147704.0

    But you ask people getting completely new hardware to get at least mid-tier memory (2133mhz is now mid-tier) for upgradeability reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    There's no difference in longevity between Nvidia and AMD as a GPU manufacturers. What you have is a case of bad luck.
    Ask my sis what she thinks of Nvidia cards on her rig, too. She has a Nvidia 570 in her computer (I simply wouldn't take it), and it'll flake out, and it's a mere 1 year old now.

    Slightly more than "luck".

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Wrong. RAID0 is so yesterday. SSD is gamer preferred and will beat any RAID setups by a magnitude or two in raw speed.
    I'll simply quote you...
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    In reality none of that matters for average gaming computer builders, and especially not for $700 budget builders.
    The very reason I didn't really touch that issue, as SSDs are too expensive for a $700 system.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    SATA3 for mechanical HDDs is a marketing trick. Even the fastest regular 7200rpm HDD WD Caviar Black has only 170mb/s sustained transfer rate when copying over large sequential files, ie. in ideal case. SATA1's limit is 150mb/s so you're only barely over that and nowhere even close to SATA2's 300mb/s speed. No mechanical HDD with SATA connector can ever reach the speed that would be bottlenecked by SATA2's 300mb/s.
    Again, when a person is building a new computer you ask them to get the most upgradeble hardware he can get to save costs (as computing is about upgrading. Most moms and dads aren't going to plop down $2000/yr otherwise). Latest format is SATA3, get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Intel has so big performance lead in WoW over AMD that it's unreal. There's really no competition between the two and no question which is better. Intel has been producing unquestionably better gaming processors since 2008 unless you're aiming for extreme low end price.
    Well, people love brands and some really like AMD, and I'm not going to have a processor war on my hands. Like some WoW forumites do about WoW itself.

    I'm impartial despite my BiL's shop is certified for Intel/MS system building, and if I'm caught with AMD processors it's WWIII.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    The chart linked above is now almost two years old, but what's come since is AMD FX-8150 which goes between the two old Phenom II's and Intel's Ivy Bridges which perform about 5% better than Sandy Bridges.
    [...]

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Any PCI Express 2.0 card will work with any modern motherboard with at least one PCI Express 2.0 x16 socket. Brands does not matter.
    Stop, before your advice can ruin a system. Just stop.

    Some motherboards are hybrids. Some are not spec. Using a video card that isn't approved for those motherboards WILL destroy the motherboard and/or video card.

    Just using a blanket term of "modern motherboard" isn't an excuse to learn bad habits, and it's horrible advice to give anyone reading this thread.

    Always check.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    It's urban legend that AMD card would work better with AMD processor. That was the case 15 years ago when Nvidia didn't license SLI technology to anybody and it would only work in Intel boards, but even then single cards worked just fine. What you want from graphics card is GDDR5 RAM, not GDDR3. 1024mb minimum on a low budget like yours. 2048mb would be better for future proofing but not worth paying much extra for it.
    Inmaterial to the discussion at hand.

    Matter of fact much of this discussion here is inmaterial due to what the OP was asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    2600k was superceded by i7-3770K while back.
    Again...
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    In reality none of that matters for average gaming computer builders, and especially not for $700 budget builders.
    And the 2600k is still the best performance bang for the buck...

    http://www.overclock.net/t/1226844/v...60x-all-4-7ghz

    But again...
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    In reality none of that matters for average gaming computer builders, and especially not for $700 budget builders.
    Why the suggestion for an i5.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Bit alarmist there. Stock heatsink will work totally fine in regular gaming computer unless you have exceptionally bad case airflow and/or live in a place with high ambient temperature. If you have summers with over 30C temp where you use the computer you should be looking into better CPU cooler and cases with high airflow, but on cooler climates it's not necessary at all.
    Actually, I don't know his locale. Best to side on caution, let alone upgradeability.

    BTW, Vesseblah in case you didn't notice earlier claims: I've been building computers since the Timex-Sinclair days (1983). I do actually know hardware and system building.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    BTW, Vesseblah in case you didn't notice earlier claims: I've been building computers since the Timex-Sinclair days (1983). I do actually know hardware and system building.
    Claiming something does not mean you're right. Actually it only makes you sound like pompous ass when you're so far off. Here's few highlights:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Fans and other accessories operate off of 5v. Your case will have more 5v connectors than anything else to power components...even in 2012.
    This is a case fan. Notice how the sticker on it says "12v DC 0.45W"? Guess what that means? Notice how the two wires go to ground and yellow (+12v).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Modern computers has nothing to do with it. Components haven't changed much in 20 years, just the power is increasing

    But they still operate off of 5v rails.
    Wrong. Since ATX12V 2.0 standard from 2003 12v rails have been more powerful by design than 5v rails.

    This is a picture of modern high quality power supply (Seasonic M12II-620). Notice how 12v lines deliver about 80% of the wattage and 3.3v & 5v lines only 20%


    ...and then the rest...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Who said AsRock motherboards were expensive? Who were referring to expensive motherboards? And who even associated expense that to upgradeability?
    You were, and you did. Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    1. It's important to get the best motherboard you can afford for just that reason -- to upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Please you do more research, like reading what shit you link past the title. The article you linked says it's rumored that Asus is gonna buy ASRock. It's not a fact except in your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Ask my sis what she thinks of Nvidia cards on her rig, too. She has a Nvidia 570 in her computer (I simply wouldn't take it), and it'll flake out, and it's a mere 1 year old now.
    My brother's neighbor's lover says his AMD card is breaking up only after 6 years of use. Again, anecdotal evidence is no evidence, and your case is still luck until you provide some actual data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    The very reason I didn't really touch that issue, as SSDs are too expensive for a $700 system.
    And RAID0 you recommended is appropriate for $700 system? LMFAO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Stop, before your advice can ruin a system. Just stop.

    Some motherboards are hybrids. Some are not spec. Using a video card that isn't approved for those motherboards WILL destroy the motherboard and/or video card.
    Explain please to me what the fuck is this so called magical hybrid motherboard that has a PCI express 2.0 x16 slot which will explode if you plug in a PCI express 2.0 x16 video card in it. I've never heard of such things. Again links would be preferred.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post

    BTW, Vesseblah in case you didn't notice earlier claims: I've been building computers since the Timex-Sinclair days (1983). I do actually know hardware and system building.
    It isn't about the knowledge, it's about thinking logically and having a good analytical insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Fans and other accessories operate off of 5v. Your case will have more 5v connectors than anything else to power components...even in 2012.

    You still have to monitor 5v activity as well.

    Modern computers has nothing to do with it. Components haven't changed much in 20 years, just the power is increasing (let alone the sizes of those components). Back in the 80s, a 60mm fan was big (and a 100w PSU was enough). Three years ago 120mm fans were big. Today it's not big unless it's over 200mm.

    But they still operate off of 5v rails.
    Pumps/fans/GPU's/CPU/Mobo/.. are making use of the 12V rail. But back in the 80's they needed 2545340V.. (ironic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Stop, before your advice can ruin a system. Just stop.

    Some motherboards are hybrids. Some are not spec. Using a video card that isn't approved for those motherboards WILL destroy the motherboard and/or video card.

    Just using a blanket term of "modern motherboard" isn't an excuse to learn bad habits, and it's horrible advice to give anyone reading this thread.

    Always check.
    The only way to destroy a graphics card is by overvolting them or overheating. "Boards which only support SLI" are also supporting Crossfire. The damn chipset supports AMD & nvidia already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    And the 2600k is still the best performance bang for the buck...

    http://www.overclock.net/t/1226844/v...60x-all-4-7ghz

    But again...
    An 32nm CPU with the same architecture as a 22nm (+3D transistors) is never never ever going to perform better. Because the Ivy bridge is harder to cool than the Sandy Bridge doesn't mean the Sandy Bridge is better in performance.

    The IHS on SB chips were solderattached and Intel didn't do this for the Ivy Bridge but they rather choose for using TIM on the CPU-die and attaching the IHS. The heat isn't being properly transfered because of a bad quality of thermal paste. Obviously this is a vicious marketingstrick of Intel so they still would sell SB chips.

    Ivy bridges are requiring less voltage than Sandy Bridge, sometimes like 0.1V less which means we have an additional room to overclock more.

    About Asrock & Asus, is this really worth it to argue about it? They splitted like 3 years ago and they are almost using the same hardware. Their bios is kinda very similar to Asus's one except the looks.

  16. #16
    Blademaster bigdom510's Avatar
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    I thank all of you for the information that you have given me, it looks like i have a lot more learning to do because i didn't understand half of that. But i really appreciate it because i really want to learn. I've been trying to look these things up as you guys talk about them, so i can get a little bit better understanding. But lets see if we can do this. I know this might take a lot of your guys time and effort but i was hoping someone could do this for me and answer the few questions that i have about some of it. But i was wondering if someone could link me all the parts to a computer that i could build that would be good for my gaming and upgrade-able. But i wanted to change a few things to maybe make it a little easier:

    Buget= ~$900 Hopefully that extra $200 can help a little?

    Processor=Now that I've done some more research and I've noticed that you guys like Intel i was thinking that maybe i should go that route so that i could upgrade later on. But what one to get? And what's better Ivy Bridge or Sandy Bridge? What's the difference? Does it even matter what one, they are both Intel?

    Memory=I'm fine with 8GBs right now, but i want a motherboard that has 4 slots so that one day i can get more. But whats the difference in the speeds, do those even matter that much? When you look a mother board up on a site, some have pictures saying what speeds each slot is, so shouldn't i just get sticks that match those speeds?

    DVD=I have a CD, and DVD player on my computer now. But my computer is from 2006-2007, would those even work on a new rig?

    Everything else i kind of have a general idea on and don't have any questions right now but i'm sure something will pop into my head when you guys start discussing again.

    Thanks a ton guys, i really appreciate the help that you have all given me.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    Buget= ~$900 Hopefully that extra $200 can help a little?
    For sure. 700 vs 900 makes the difference between painful tradeoffs and getting just about everything you need at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    Processor=Now that I've done some more research and I've noticed that you guys like Intel i was thinking that maybe i should go that route so that i could upgrade later on. But what one to get? And what's better Ivy Bridge or Sandy Bridge? What's the difference? Does it even matter what one, they are both Intel?
    Ivy Bridge (i*-3***) are 2012 models, Sandy Bridge (i*-2***) last year's stuff. In performance the difference is around 5-10% which isn't much and should be taken into consideration when you're looking at the price difference. In short straight out of the box the newer IB processors are better, but if you're into enthusiast overclocking the old SB processors are much easier to overclock past blind default settings. i5 is good for gaming, i7 series if you spend hours waiting for AutoCAD or Revit to calculate stuff. i7 will make those programs run about 15-20% faster so it's up to you if that 15% is worth extra $100 of your money. From one hour it's only 10 minutes saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    Memory=I'm fine with 8GBs right now, but i want a motherboard that has 4 slots so that one day i can get more. But whats the difference in the speeds, do those even matter that much? When you look a mother board up on a site, some have pictures saying what speeds each slot is, so shouldn't i just get sticks that match those speeds?
    Basically all full-size motherboards have 4 slots for RAM with the exception of extreme cheap-ass no-name boards. Small boards can have only two slots sometimes. This is something easily checkable from the manufacture's website. 1600MHz RAM gives smallish (3-4% advantage over 1333MHz and since the price difference is usually in that 3-4% range it's decent purchase. When upping to 1866MHz or faster the price/performance ratio gets worse. What you're looking for either SB or IB motherboard would be 1600MHz CL9 1.5v RAM, lower voltages would be ok too. Getting anything fancier will not really give much value for your money. On the other hand if you often spend hours rendering or waiting for the computer to run some simulations, faster memory will speed those up and might be worth buying for your peace of mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    DVD=I have a CD, and DVD player on my computer now. But my computer is from 2006-2007, would those even work on a new rig?
    If it's SATA drive, yes. Older PATA drive requires extra adapters that cost almost as much as brand new DVD drive so you might have to replace the DVD drive too.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  18. #18
    Blademaster bigdom510's Avatar
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    ok thank you for that. I know its asking a lot but would you be willing to find those pieces for me ones that go together and would work well together?

    PSU
    Processor
    Motherboard
    RAM
    Video card
    Case
    DVD
    HDD
    OS



    EDIT: i found this setup on newegg and from what i'm understanding this is badass, not sure about the price tho
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883229365

    even though i dont need the keyboard or the mouse its still really nice....i think
    Last edited by bigdom510; 2012-11-13 at 04:24 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    ok thank you for that. I know its asking a lot but would you be willing to find those pieces for me ones that go together and would work well together?

    PSU
    Processor
    Motherboard
    RAM
    Video card
    Case
    DVD
    HDD
    OS



    EDIT: i found this setup on newegg and from what i'm understanding this is badass, not sure about the price tho
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883229365

    even though i dont need the keyboard or the mouse its still really nice....i think
    That newegg computer does appear to be pretty good. I seems too good to be true actually. I can only assume, because they don't say, that they used a cheap brand on the Motherboard and the PSU. I also do not know about that case. Never used that mfg before and cannot even find that particular case on the mfg website. The video card is also kind of weak for an i7 System, though for the price it's pretty good and could be upgraded later on down the road.
    Rift - Lathais@Deepwood - 60 Rogue / Arrieleah@Deepwood - 60 Mage
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdom510 View Post
    EDIT: i found this setup on newegg and from what i'm understanding this is badass, not sure about the price tho
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883229365
    There are several problems with that build:

    1) B75 chipset - Normally, you'd be getting a Z77 chipset for a 3770K source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6521342805
    - Weak overclocking (BCLK only, instead of multiplier support like Z77)
    - No RAID
    2) 1333 Mhz RAM - We'd normally be recommending 1600 Mhz, but the B75 chipset does not support 1600 Mhz
    3) Weak graphics card - you'd have to spend an additional $200 to buy a comparable graphics card to other proposed builds in the thread
    4) You can't be sure you're getting high quality components, especially for HDD and PSU which are 'mission-critical' components.

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