Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I think you're subscribing to the logical fallacy that down-time affects dot classes less than direct damage classes. It certainly CAN, but its dependant on the specific scenario. Invocation's burst window of ~35 seconds is not short enough that fire gets a significant leg-up over other classes. If it were, say, a 6 second burst window during which time fire could get up a bomb, pyro, combustion, then yes that would be a lot more damage than anything frost could put up in that same window.
    And that's exactly what happens during the AT Pom Pyro Combustion string where Alter time is used to extend trinkets, lightweave, etc. to make a crazy high 20 second combustion and its all done in the span of about 8 seconds and then all of those buffs are magnified by Invocation. This is the Fire burst window I'm referring to and it happens every 3 minutes, and then a smaller but nonetheless significant burst window every 90 seconds.

  2. #22
    I did the first week of Heart of Fear (normal modes) pretty decent as frost (have rank 1 on most the fights..) but a major part of me being fire is getting the heroic elegon trinket, most of the HoF fights need you to use frost bomb which obviously doesn't proc it. Another big point is that fire is pretty much trivial to play optimally compared to frost, especially during progression when you need to focus on fight mechanics and staying alive.

  3. #23
    I know you mention these factors but you don't seem to actually give them weight, you just agree that they are there and move on saying what you've been saying the entire time.

    1. Better players are playing Fire. It's just a fact, look at the top 100 world guilds, 74% Fire, 25% Frost and 1% Arcane (must have been a joke). There are definitely good players playing Frost, but not enough to compete with Fire from a logs standpoint.

    2. RNG. This ties into my first point. More people are playing fire, which increases the chances for good RNG Fire attempts. It's not a secret that most WoL Fire parses are crazy RNG parses. If we were to look at a given persons prior 5 attempts to that kill, I'm sure the average would be closer to where we see frost.

    Overall, yes fire is ahead, but not by as much as you're making it out to be. A lot of the fights currently in the game have cleave that will synergize well with fire. On single target fights fire is not too far ahead barring favorable RNG. And that is part of fire. What you don't see on WoL is the same exact person who has a top 10 parse with 120k one week, doing 90k the next kill. Whereas frost spec is extremely consistent in comparison to fire.

  4. #24
    Yeah, let's just go ahead and cherry pick the data that proves my point, and ignore the rest. Let's also just ignore the fact that certain specs are better at some fights than others. Yep, lookin good. Keep it up.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    And that's exactly what happens during the AT Pom Pyro Combustion string where Alter time is used to extend trinkets, lightweave, etc. to make a crazy high 20 second combustion and its all done in the span of about 8 seconds and then all of those buffs are magnified by Invocation. This is the Fire burst window I'm referring to and it happens every 3 minutes, and then a smaller but nonetheless significant burst window every 90 seconds.
    I'm not saying you're wrong - the above is correct, I just think you're overestimating its impact. I'm mostly just being argumentative, but my point is that I don't think its a problem with the mage lvl90 talents.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 03:28 PM ----------


    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 03:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyryte View Post
    I know you mention these factors but you don't seem to actually give them weight, ..
    Yeah that's kind of the point I was trying to make as well. Still, I believe fire does need a nerf even considering those factors.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-13 at 08:29 PM.

  6. #26
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    Quote Originally Posted by FoodProduct View Post
    Yeah, let's just go ahead and cherry pick the data that proves my point, and ignore the rest. Let's also just ignore the fact that certain specs are better at some fights than others. Yep, lookin good. Keep it up.
    Please link the stats that are to the contrary. I'd like to see them.

  7. #27
    Sure, fire is starting to really pull ahead of frost, but it's not like anyone expected anything else.
    Is it really a problem that one spec is better than the other two?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ciaro View Post
    Sure, fire is starting to really pull ahead of frost, but it's not like anyone expected anything else.
    Is it really a problem that one spec is better than the other two?
    Uhh.. yes. troll elsewhere please

    Infracted - please post constructively.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2012-11-13 at 11:23 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Uhh.. yes. troll elsewhere please
    I don't think you're allowed to call people a troll

    I also didn't know the definition of trolling was sharing an opinion.

  10. #30
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    I think if our level 90 talents were different than +dmg%, the scaling issues would be fixed.

  11. #31
    What I meant when I said I don't think one spec pulling ahead is a problem is that it would be impossible to balance the three specs evenly throughout all gear levels.
    Having 2 or even 3 specs that are equal at 450ilvl and 500ilvl is just too much hassle, and imo it's just too much to ask to have several specs that perform equal.
    What really matters is class balance, and as long as we have one spec that's in the top 5 I don't think there's much to complain about damage wise.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Feng the Accursed 25H
    Fire mechanics allow for DPS uptime to remain higher during epicenters,
    If your loosing dps on Feng H to epicenter your doing it wrong. you should be affected by the -hit for a very short amount of time. Try to time this short window to be in a cast so when you finish the cast the debuff is gone. In any case every 2 epi's get stunned, and buble take care of 98% of the epi debuff.

    after writing this i became unsure if the Hit check occurs when we start a cast or when it finish cast? if the latter is true then my comment above is false, though it is such a short time window any way that it should account for maybe 1-2 ticks and you should only have 2 epi's not getting stunned so that would be 2-4 ticks for the entire fight, and that wont explain the huge difference in the two specs atm.

    Personally i am glad fire is on top, because if Frost was best i would be "forced" to change my spec as any min/maxer would. And i dislike frost and love fire. I know this is the other way around for frost lovers and it is indeed sad the gap is so big.

  13. #33
    Mechagnome SanderZammy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Take a guess... no, NOT THERE! You and your dirty mind.
    Posts
    732
    Not sure if it's been said yet, but this is what I think: Fire has more potential, so let's say a skilled player can do *slightly* more dps with Fire. He wants the best possible dps so he chooses fire. A less skilled/geared/experienced player is more likely not to care about a small difference so he picks what he likes best (possibly Frost), but remember that he would be doing less dps than the skilled player with both specs, but he chose Frost so on WoL it looks like Frost is doing worse, while actually Frost players are worse.

    Sorry if that didn't make much sense, right now at 3am it makes sense to me. xD

  14. #34
    I think Blizzard wants frost to do well in pve, that's what the water elemental FoF change is for, that's what the buff to frost armor before the expac was for. I'd be surprised if they didn't do something to level the two out. I've been in a sort of tough situation with my guild as well, its bad enough just to get people to accept that frost belongs in a raid at all while trying to show them that it can be competitive. When I lose to the Fire Mage everyone wants to know why I'm waisting time as frost, though when I beat him out its decidedly quiet on vent. I could absolutely go fire but the rotation is not fun to me, I think frost is much more engaging and I hope it ends up being one of those specs that rewards exceptional play, fire can go on being the herp derp spec.

  15. #35
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    I did what I could on opening night of Terrace. Scored a Loshan. Hopefully 4pc will help Frost's scaling problems:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/dps/

    Right now the top 10 dps across all classes on 25M Protectors is 9 fire mages and 1 frost mage, me :P

    -
    After getting Loshan things are looking better. Maybe 4pc will help out even more. 50% icy veins vs. 20% combustion CD...

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    If your loosing dps on Feng H to epicenter your doing it wrong. you should be affected by the -hit for a very short amount of time. Try to time this short window to be in a cast so when you finish the cast the debuff is gone. In any case every 2 epi's get stunned, and buble take care of 98% of the epi debuff.

    after writing this i became unsure if the Hit check occurs when we start a cast or when it finish cast? if the latter is true then my comment above is false, though it is such a short time window any way that it should account for maybe 1-2 ticks and you should only have 2 epi's not getting stunned so that would be 2-4 ticks for the entire fight, and that wont explain the huge difference in the two specs atm.

    Personally i am glad fire is on top, because if Frost was best i would be "forced" to change my spec as any min/maxer would. And i dislike frost and love fire. I know this is the other way around for frost lovers and it is indeed sad the gap is so big.
    Yes it is possible to avoid the hit reduction of epicenter if you stun every other one. Unfortunately most guilds are not capable of this, and from what I've read many guilds are copying epicenter instead of lightning fists anyway.

    Final hit check occurs when the projectile hits the targets, at which time buffs and debuffs on the target are factored in. This is how a rogue can cloak or a warrior can reflect a projectile thats in midair. Epicenter is a debuff on the player that refreshes every ~1s so you'll want to finish your casts just after it fades.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 03:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ogFrenikk View Post
    I don't think you're allowed to call people a troll

    I also didn't know the definition of trolling was sharing an opinion.
    Yeah almost forgot these forums have stupid rules. /sigh

    His 'opinion' came off as trolling because it really is *that* counterproductive to the conversation.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 03:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SanderZammy View Post
    Not sure if it's been said yet, but this is what I think: Fire has more potential, so let's say a skilled player can do *slightly* more dps with Fire. He wants the best possible dps so he chooses fire. A less skilled/geared/experienced player is more likely not to care about a small difference so he picks what he likes best (possibly Frost), but remember that he would be doing less dps than the skilled player with both specs, but he chose Frost so on WoL it looks like Frost is doing worse, while actually Frost players are worse.

    Sorry if that didn't make much sense, right now at 3am it makes sense to me. xD
    Thing is, fire takes no skill - at all -. That said, I do agree that a big part of the difference in logs comes from how many of the skilled, geared mages are going fire. Even so - it needs a nerf and should not be so consistently and so far ahead of other classes and specs.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 03:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaro View Post
    What I meant when I said I don't think one spec pulling ahead is a problem is that it would be impossible to balance the three specs evenly throughout all gear levels.
    Having 2 or even 3 specs that are equal at 450ilvl and 500ilvl is just too much hassle, and imo it's just too much to ask to have several specs that perform equal.
    What really matters is class balance, and as long as we have one spec that's in the top 5 I don't think there's much to complain about damage wise.
    Yes, you're right, its unrealistic to expect perfect balance across a wide spectrum of gear values. However, we're not requesting perfect balance. We're not complaining that frost does less damage than fire, we're complaining about how MUCH less damage it does.

    Whether or not the specs should be roughly equivalent is a matter of debate - for a long time in wow it was not the case, but it is not an unrealistic expectation in reality. Base values and scaling exist so they can be tweaked to affect these balance issues.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-15 at 10:10 AM.

  17. #37
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    France, Illidan-EU
    Posts
    1,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I did what I could on opening night of Terrace. Scored a Loshan. Hopefully 4pc will help Frost's scaling problems:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/dps/

    Right now the top 10 dps across all classes on 25M Protectors is 9 fire mages and 1 frost mage, me :P

    -
    After getting Loshan things are looking better. Maybe 4pc will help out even more. 50% icy veins vs. 20% combustion CD...
    But a large part of your damage is useless, since you are cleaving the other boss (who will gain their health back) with Nether Tempest and Ice Lances (Fire mages do the same with Inferno Blast).
    NEW Android App : World of Quizzcraft
    Test your knowledge of WoW with more than 1100 questions and 80 achievements!

    Web Apps : Deaths Analyzer, WoL Timeline, Megaera Dps Calculator
    WoW-Heroes

  18. #38
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    2,126
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    But a large part of your damage is useless, since you are cleaving the other boss (who will gain their health back) with Nether Tempest and Ice Lances (Fire mages do the same with Inferno Blast).
    So getting brain freeze procs is useless?

    Maybe you didn't mean that.

  19. #39
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    France, Illidan-EU
    Posts
    1,743
    No I don't mean that cleaving is useless for your main target DPS (it is useful since it gives you procs like you said), but your global DPS is inflated by the damage of these cleaves.
    Anyway good to have people trying to play Frost despite the supremacy of Fire, I used to do that on my alt in Cata too.
    NEW Android App : World of Quizzcraft
    Test your knowledge of WoW with more than 1100 questions and 80 achievements!

    Web Apps : Deaths Analyzer, WoL Timeline, Megaera Dps Calculator
    WoW-Heroes

  20. #40
    Brain Freeze will only proc from the most recently cast Mage Bomb, you don't get extra procs by cleaving with it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •