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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    So getting brain freeze procs is useless?

    Maybe you didn't mean that.
    His statement was a bit ambiguous but I assume his point was that while 120k is quite good, much of that was damage that didn't need to be dealt. Fire mages are seeing in the high 90ks single target; how much of your damage comes from Ice lance and nether tempest (and frozen orb) cleave?

    Not to mention now there are fire mages with 15-20k more dps than yours, which is not surprising of course. Dont get the wrong idea, we're not trying to diminish your performance, we're just saying that the point remains that fire is significantly higher on every fight. I expect in the coming weeks for fire mages to RNG even higher than the current top logs

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    So getting brain freeze procs is useless?

    Maybe you didn't mean that.
    Nether tempest will only grant you brain freeze procs from your first application of it. Multiple targets wont increase your procs.

  3. #43
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsian View Post
    Nether tempest will only grant you brain freeze procs from your first application of it. Multiple targets wont increase your procs.
    This is not true, and proven wrong continuously in every raid I do.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 01:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    His statement was a bit ambiguous but I assume his point was that while 120k is quite good, much of that was damage that didn't need to be dealt. Fire mages are seeing in the high 90ks single target; how much of your damage comes from Ice lance and nether tempest (and frozen orb) cleave?

    Not to mention now there are fire mages with 15-20k more dps than yours, which is not surprising of course. Dont get the wrong idea, we're not trying to diminish your performance, we're just saying that the point remains that fire is significantly higher on every fight. I expect in the coming weeks for fire mages to RNG even higher than the current top logs
    It absolutely is. I expect to see fire mages ahead of all classes as we move forward.

    Frost's only possible saving grace will be the 4pc or the haste from Essence of Terror.

    --

    Need to amend and clarify my point on brain freeze w/multiple nether tempest procs. My frequency of Brain Freeze procs goes up by 33% when I use Nether Tempest on 3 targets. I recognize what the tooltip has said and I'm very uncertain why this happens. It might be frequency of ticks and that it's being refreshed in a staggered manner.

    I just went and re-verified this on 3 target dummies. I gain 33% more brain freeze procs on 3 targets as opposed to 1 target. I do not gain any more by going on 4+ targets.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    This is not true, and proven wrong continuously in every raid I do.
    Yeah. Sure.

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=44549/brain-freeze
    Your most recently applied Nether Tempest, Living Bomb, or Frost Bomb spell has a chance when it deals damage to grant you the Brain Freeze effect.

    The Brain Freeze effect causes your next Frostfire Bolt to be instant cast, cost no mana, and act as if your target were frozen for 15 sec.
    You keep believing that, champ.
    I'll take the tooltip and the fact that literally nobody else is experiencing this over your RNG on some target dummies.
    You didn't even post any screenshots.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-14 at 06:46 PM.

  5. #45
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Can it be RNG? Honest question there. I mean we've ventured entirely off topic anyway. I don't think I'm above misunderstanding practical results. The periodic damage has the chance to cause the proc, does that mean it's exclusive to the periodic ticks of only the first one cast? If so then I really do apologize, my playing around with it was my bad, then.


    I do apologize big time to the community for coming off strongly. I was a druid for 7 years, just changed to mage. Taking it all in.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Can it be RNG? Honest question there. I mean we've ventured entirely off topic anyway. I don't think I'm above misunderstanding practical results. The periodic damage has the chance to cause the proc, does that mean it's exclusive to the periodic ticks of only the first one cast? If so then I really do apologize, my playing around with it was my bad, then.


    I do apologize big time to the community for coming off strongly. I was a druid for 7 years, just changed to mage. Taking it all in.
    Yes its exclusive to ticks of the first one - good rng bombs might make it feel otherwise :P

    We all come off strongly, intelligent people arguing minute details about a topic we're passionate about, it happens. I dont even PLAY mage really and I'm in here butting my head in and arguing haha

  7. #47
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    This is not true, and proven wrong continuously in every raid I do.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 01:17 PM ----------



    It absolutely is. I expect to see fire mages ahead of all classes as we move forward.

    Frost's only possible saving grace will be the 4pc or the haste from Essence of Terror.

    --

    Need to amend and clarify my point on brain freeze w/multiple nether tempest procs. My frequency of Brain Freeze procs goes up by 33% when I use Nether Tempest on 3 targets. I recognize what the tooltip has said and I'm very uncertain why this happens. It might be frequency of ticks and that it's being refreshed in a staggered manner.

    I just went and re-verified this on 3 target dummies. I gain 33% more brain freeze procs on 3 targets as opposed to 1 target. I do not gain any more by going on 4+ targets.
    You keep saying fire is putting other classes to shame and not just frost. What are you basing this on? Looking at both the results from all parses:http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/ and top 100:http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/ , I don't see it. Mages are top by.04 on the top 100 parses and middle of the pack on all parses. Your statement has me a little confused.

    Sure fire scales better than frost. As Swizzness said, we have known this since people started hitting 90 on beta. But warriors and and other classes are also scaling quite well. Once we have a decent sample from raids post 5.1, we can revisit this issue and see where fire sits in respect to other classes.

    I do believe frost needs to be tweaked though. I think scaling on Frostbolt or the pet's Waterbolt or perhaps both need to be adjusted. If they can get a greater boost from spellpower, it should bring the value of secondary stats up a bit without making burst outrageous for pvp.

    edit: I just realized I used spec score and not the overall dps >.<

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Can it be RNG? Honest question there. I mean we've ventured entirely off topic anyway. I don't think I'm above misunderstanding practical results. The periodic damage has the chance to cause the proc, does that mean it's exclusive to the periodic ticks of only the first one cast? If so then I really do apologize, my playing around with it was my bad, then.


    I do apologize big time to the community for coming off strongly. I was a druid for 7 years, just changed to mage. Taking it all in.
    I get more than one proc sometimes within a cycle. It's rare, but it does happen. Tooltips can be off sometimes take the case of FB, it's at the end.
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  9. #49
    But...Lvheria's blog says Frost/Arcane compete within 1-2% of fire.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Tezra View Post
    But...Lvheria's blog says Frost/Arcane compete within 1-2% of fire.

    lol lhivera. lhivera is only a numbers cruncher, and only repeats whatever the sim spits out. It doesn't reflect anywhere close to actual raid results with mechanics.
    Last edited by Ellsian; 2012-11-14 at 09:04 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsian View Post
    lol lhivera. lhivera is only a numbers cruncher, and only repeats whatever the sim spits out. It doesn't reflect anywhere close to actual raid results with mechanics.
    or the skill of said players. ANyone who says fire takes no skill is stupid. Fire Mage A does 120k, Fire Mage B does 90k, the difference is skill. It doesn't take skill to melee a boss with your staff, skill is defined as how much dps you can do (among other factors) compared to the absolute maximum. Every spec in this game requires skill to play it to perfection, which will never be done.

    Fire may have a lower skill cap, if that's what you mean, in that an average player will do better proportionately to a good player using Fire rather than Frost, but given the huge disparity in parses from fire, I would still challenge that statement.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyryte View Post
    or the skill of said players. ANyone who says fire takes no skill is stupid. Fire Mage A does 120k, Fire Mage B does 90k, the difference is skill. It doesn't take skill to melee a boss with your staff, skill is defined as how much dps you can do (among other factors) compared to the absolute maximum. Every spec in this game requires skill to play it to perfection, which will never be done.

    Fire may have a lower skill cap, if that's what you mean, in that an average player will do better proportionately to a good player using Fire rather than Frost, but given the huge disparity in parses from fire, I would still challenge that statement.
    fire also has the largest damage rng range of any spec in the game (over 30k, depending in your luck with crits).

  13. #53
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyryte View Post
    or the skill of said players. ANyone who says fire takes no skill is stupid. Fire Mage A does 120k, Fire Mage B does 90k, the difference is skill. It doesn't take skill to melee a boss with your staff, skill is defined as how much dps you can do (among other factors) compared to the absolute maximum. Every spec in this game requires skill to play it to perfection, which will never be done.

    Fire may have a lower skill cap, if that's what you mean, in that an average player will do better proportionately to a good player using Fire rather than Frost, but given the huge disparity in parses from fire, I would still challenge that statement.
    This is all I ever meant to imply. It can be entirely subjective even. I find fire mage to be about as boring as bear tanking. That's why I'm dreading the possible inevitability that I'll have to be fire to continue progressing-- I'd rather not raid. It's mind-numbingly boring to me. Heating up makes it better than Cata fire, but it's still clunky and uncomfortable. I'd rather twitch and timing of frost, which keeps me always planning and revising my plan throughout a fight.

    I'd never try to tell a fire mage to stop playing fire. I also really want to clarify, I'm not looking for frost to be higher than fire, either. I'm okay if it's within an acceptable gap that my skill in frost can justify me not playing fire. I'd be equally okay if you just replaced every instance of the word 'frost' with 'arcane' - it's fire I hate to play. I simply want more than one option while enjoying how incredible the mage class is

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Yes its exclusive to ticks of the first one - good rng bombs might make it feel otherwise :P

    We all come off strongly, intelligent people arguing minute details about a topic we're passionate about, it happens. I dont even PLAY mage really and I'm in here butting my head in and arguing haha
    Let me clarify it once more in case Imnick's post wasn't enough - it procs from the ticks of the LAST bomb applied, not the first one.

    Also, let's not drag Lhivera into yet another forum discussion, he has some good numbers theory and a lot of bad numbers theory, debating them will not be constructive.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Yes it is possible to avoid the hit reduction of epicenter if you stun every other one. Unfortunately most guilds are not capable of this, and from what I've read many guilds are copying epicenter instead of lightning fists anyway.

    Final hit check occurs when the projectile hits the targets, at which time buffs and debuffs on the target are factored in (epicenter is a buff on feng)[COLOR="red"]
    i am not sure if you noticed the Heroic before feng, or how many healers you roll with, but we find it quite impossible to outheal the epicenter.

    Also the minus hit is a debuff on your self.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsian View Post
    fire also has the largest damage rng range of any spec in the game (over 30k, depending in your luck with crits).
    if you swing 30k dont blame it on bad rng...
    Last edited by stX3; 2012-11-15 at 09:11 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    i am not sure if you noticed the Heroic before feng, or how many healers you roll with, but we find it quite impossible to outheal the epicenter.

    Also the minus hit is a debuff on your self.

    if you swing 30k dont blame it on bad rng...

    Yeah i was referring to heroic - Unfortunately my guild is super casual and hasnt done any heroics, so I was just going off information I've heard here in the forums. I imagine the epicenter becomes a lot more healable if you have monk/pally healers doing 100k hps.

    Yes you're right about the hit debuff my mistake, gonna edit my original post so nobody gets wrong info

  17. #57
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    This is pertinent to the discussion:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cuss-balance#8

  18. #58
    All I can add is if the 5.1 Combustion change isn't reverted, Frost will be as dead as Arcane.

    It won't last though, the screaming from other classes will be overwhelming (and deserved).

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