Rogue Changes --5.1 PTR Build 16297

[Deleted]

Rogue raiding is awesome and good... not perfect but really good and doesn't need any fast changes. But PvP... well, I'm leveling a mage now. :/

[Verain]

Well there is that, but thats not what I meant. I was saying that if you were to try to pop 2 cloaks to maintain uptime on a warrior for a kill, it becomes a waste if the warrior uses any of his multiple abilities to create distance. And it isn't just warriors, most melee can create some distance if they need and it'd be pretty hard to catch back up without shs.

Well, just like you don't go crazy on a mage who has blink up without some method of getting him, wailing on a warrior who has leap isn't going to work. Warriors can't do all their retarded teleport shit out of a smokebomb, so you can use that to keep things intimate for a couple seconds, which can sometimes be enough. Note that NONE of the warrior movement kit lets them cheese paralysis root and stuns.

[Sesshou]

Well, just like you don't go crazy on a mage who has blink up without some method of getting him, wailing on a warrior who has leap isn't going to work. Warriors can't do all their retarded teleport shit out of a smokebomb, so you can use that to keep things intimate for a couple seconds, which can sometimes be enough. Note that NONE of the warrior movement kit lets them cheese paralysis root and stuns.

Isn't leap a ground target and therefore not effected by smoke bomb? Also if you have your bomb, why do you need the cloaks for what the person I was replying to was saying? Their ranged can't cc you through the bomb which was his main point in using the cloaks. Bomb also isn't on prep so I don't see the point in you mentioning it as stunning/rooting some one in a bomb can be done with shs/bos as well. We are also talking about a 2nd cloak. I don't know how you are going to keep them there for a bomb and 2 cloaks.

Anyway, thats getting pretty specific and hypothetical and is derailing further from my point. Even melee can get away from you and there are non spell peels. I also think it would be rather hard to get such a wonderful set up like you are talking about when you can hardly put pressure out because you took prep and can't keep up.

[seifer]

i'm deleting this shit from my computer goodbye World of warcraft

[Ryme]

Rogue raiding is awesome and good... not perfect but really good and doesn't need any fast changes. But PvP... well, I'm leveling a mage now. :/

I'd disagree, I think rogue raiding is one the most dull experiences in this game. Here's my thoughts as to why:

- The differences between specs is closing in on non existent
- Energy regen is so low that the wait time in all specs is colossal, I don't enjoy not being able to do anything because my character is perpetually out of breath.
- The visual distinction in abilities does not exist anymore save for a thin green flash when you envenom and Shadow Dance's weird bubble thing.
- There's not enough buttons to press; in the main rotation, you have a combo point builder, SnD, Rupture and a finisher. Assassination is helped with this due to dispatch procs, but the other specs need some loving too, it's not very involving gameplay when it's so mechanical - there's no fluidity.
- We bring so little to a raid group now. The most fun I had was using Smoke Bomb as a defensive raid CD on Gara'jal. I hope blizzard sees this and bumps that up to some kind of PvE raid CD, it has great potential.

After playing monk, I just feel disheartened. Lots of interesting cooldowns, dynamic rotations and they look great doing it.

[Deleted]

- Energy regen is so low that the wait time in all specs is colossal, I don't enjoy not being able to do anything because my character is perpetually out of breath.

I agree with you here. And i have a question to our energy regen (maybe a little OT...):
I always thought with increasing gearlevel (and consequently more haste) we'll spend less time waiting for energy. However simulationcraft shows that with t14N we spend about 198s waiting and with t14H it's 202s... Is this a problem with simcraft or am i missing something? (i was taking the 5.0.5. data as there is no t14N for 5.1.).

although i also think that we really need some visual effects (pretty boring when compared to e.g. my warlock) i atm enjoy raiding on my rogue. didn't try pvp yet.

[Deleted]

Never witnessed this much dissatisfaction for such a prolonged period from rogues at least. People will generally not be sympathetic though - Warglaive 4 piece PvP Hemo and End of Cata still hurts a lot of people.

[Feindy]

sometimes i feel like blizz wants all the rogues to quit, so they could replace us with new class-demon hunter
lol

[Sesshou]

I like how they responded to stuff about some classes, but what they pick for rogues is some idiot qq. Is that whopping 5 energy off of kick and the blind change suppose to be enough...? Neither of those are really mobility though which they did say there would be a conservative change to...

Also, 1 guaranteed crit every 2 minutes was causing not care about crit as stat? WTF? Now I could see that with the old ambush crit talent that made it basically 100% (once you got semi-decent gear). One crit every 2 (actually was it 3?) minutes only gives us a slightly better on demand instant burst. Not that I really want CB back or anything, but that guy doesn't seem to have a clue.

[Deleted]

They'll get around to them eventually.
It is unacceptable though, meanwhile I'm leveling alts, if that means rerolling a FOTM class/spec so I can enjoy PvP then so be it.

[Sýf]

They'll get around to them eventually.

I literally woke up the everyone in the house with my laughter.

Now my wife is angry with me. Thanks.

[Verain]

Isn't leap a ground target and therefore not effected by smoke bomb?

Yes, which is why I said "wailing on a warrior who has leap isn't going to work" right before "Warriors can't do all their retarded teleport shit out of a smokebomb". They can leap, but they can't safeguard, charge, or intervene, hence "wailing on a warrior who has leap isn't going to work"- he'll just leap out of it, unless... "Note that NONE of the warrior movement kit lets them cheese paralysis root and stuns"

Also if you have your bomb, why do you need the cloaks for what the person I was replying to was saying? Their ranged can't cc you through the bomb which was his main point in using the cloaks.

You could be in the bomb with someone doing a magic based CC, and some of it is area target (blinding light, dragon's breath, that new DK thing they all have).

I don't know how you are going to keep them there for a bomb and 2 cloaks.

Hopefully with a stun and a root!

Even melee can get away from you and there are non spell peels. I also think it would be rather hard to get such a wonderful set up like you are talking about when you can hardly put pressure out because you took prep and can't keep up.

I'm finding that a max health target can be threatened if your partner isn't full CCed during your burst cycle- the burst during twin shadow (blades and dance) is actually pretty great.

That being said, I'm not trying to tell you rogues don't need mobility because they can sometimes get a gib from max health by chaining 3 or more cooldowns. I am saying that your ability to stay on a warrior, while not amazing, should be good enough to make them a valid kill target even without a gap closer, because you shouldn't be opening up an a guy who can just trinket + leap away with all your cooldowns- that's incorrect cooldown usage. Warriors can't just spend the whole fight escaping the rogue, that's something they try to do at times, and you can predict it. Our issue with the warrior class isn't "he kites me like a mage" just because he can effectively escape you with trinket up. I can escape a rogue if I trinket vanish, but that's not really an argument. If I have those two, I won't die barring some dumb global.

[Moxi]

Our issue with the warrior class isn't "he kites me like a mage"

Dont know about everyone else, but my issue with warriors is "he looks at me and i die".

[Deleted]

I'd disagree, I think rogue raiding is one the most dull experiences in this game. Here's my thoughts as to why:

- The differences between specs is closing in on non existent
- Energy regen is so low that the wait time in all specs is colossal, I don't enjoy not being able to do anything because my character is perpetually out of breath.
- The visual distinction in abilities does not exist anymore save for a thin green flash when you envenom and Shadow Dance's weird bubble thing.
- There's not enough buttons to press; in the main rotation, you have a combo point builder, SnD, Rupture and a finisher. Assassination is helped with this due to dispatch procs, but the other specs need some loving too, it's not very involving gameplay when it's so mechanical - there's no fluidity.
- We bring so little to a raid group now. The most fun I had was using Smoke Bomb as a defensive raid CD on Gara'jal. I hope blizzard sees this and bumps that up to some kind of PvE raid CD, it has great potential.

After playing monk, I just feel disheartened. Lots of interesting cooldowns, dynamic rotations and they look great doing it.

I'd disagree too, but I'm giving you a bit room.

-The differences are there, not much but they are there. It feels completly different in each spec, as you have to watch for different things, do different styles. If I mash my buttons in Assa like I do in Combat, I'm crippling my dps and clipping envenoms. Sure, there's pooling in combat spec too, but not that much and with more haste it will be even less.
-I'm fine with the energy regen. You may have some waiting times but then there are times where you are at 0.8 sec globals and its fast as hell. I like it.
-Visual distinction as a melee? It can only go that far. True, there could be some more animations, like monk got, but all in all there's no much difference between the old meele classes: Some shadowexplosions, some holy explosions, some bleedings... thats it.
-rogue gameplay is very fluent, compared to other classes. Rarely we have many procced buttons at the same time, which leads to problems. Sure, this could be improved, as can everything. But not fluent? Thats the exact opposite.
-we bring top dmg, we take less damage than any other class and have some nice buffs and debuffs. Sure, there could be a raidheal cd or raid tricks... but it isn't that bad.

Monk WW is okay, but it feels too mechanical, too artifical. Dynamic? More like "try to do keep these buffs up while watching for X cds..." CDs and buffs are not dynamic, thats oldschool and bad. Try mage for instance, thats dynamic because you can do so many things and shape your fighting style to the current situation.

[Deleted]

I'd disagree too, but I'm giving you a bit room.

-The differences are there, not much but they are there. It feels completly different in each spec, as you have to watch for different things, do different styles. If I mash my buttons in Assa like I do in Combat, I'm crippling my dps and clipping envenoms. Sure, there's pooling in combat spec too, but not that much and with more haste it will be even less.
-I'm fine with the energy regen. You may have some waiting times but then there are times where you are at 0.8 sec globals and its fast as hell. I like it.
-Visual distinction as a melee? It can only go that far. True, there could be some more animations, like monk got, but all in all there's no much difference between the old meele classes: Some shadowexplosions, some holy explosions, some bleedings... thats it.
-rogue gameplay is very fluent, compared to other classes. Rarely we have many procced buttons at the same time, which leads to problems. Sure, this could be improved, as can everything. But not fluent? Thats the exact opposite.
-we bring top dmg, we take less damage than any other class and have some nice buffs and debuffs. Sure, there could be a raidheal cd or raid tricks... but it isn't that bad.

Monk WW is okay, but it feels too mechanical, too artifical. Dynamic? More like "try to do keep these buffs up while watching for X cds..." CDs and buffs are not dynamic, thats oldschool and bad. Try mage for instance, thats dynamic because you can do so many things and shape your fighting style to the current situation.

I'd say Assassination is very fluent, at the moment, mainly due to the slow nature of the rotation.
Combats rotation, on the other hand, sometimes comes to a complete halt if you've had bad luck with Combat Potency procs. You end up in a state where SND is falling off, Revealing is falling off, and you have no combo points to refresh SND with yet. Anything you do in that situation will likely be a dps loss. At current haste levels, the rotation just seems kinda "hit and miss" I'd say.

[D3athsting]

Just leveled mage to 90 (only 1 death from 85 to 90 for aggroing 6-7 mantids) and fell in love with him and i have to say that rogue dmg utility and survivability is nowhere near mage's ones, then i read GC trolling rogues on twitter, thinking about rerolling now...

[Verain]

I-Visual distinction as a melee? It can only go that far. True, there could be some more animations, like monk got, but all in all there's no much difference between the old meele classes: Some shadowexplosions, some holy explosions, some bleedings... thats it.

Eviscerate and Sinister strike could have their own animations. We could keep the mutilate animation instead of it being doled out to all two weapon strikes- those could get their own. Why stormstrike look like mutilate? Stormstrike uses the power of nature to strike with both weapons. Mutilate is a dual dagger strike. There should be no overlap there, that's lazy and cheap.

Hemo and Sinister strike look the damned same, barring a subtle color shift in the fractional second draw of the weapon slice. Dispatch has backstab's animation, sound, and icon. Other classes do not have these fundamental identity issues!

Killing Spree is distinctive. Ironically, it was one of the moves they were trying to erase / garbage up, with some dumb mechanic where you would have to press the button a lot and you would lose everything the move was. They didn't go that path, but they very nearly did.

-we bring top dmg, we take less damage than any other class and have some nice buffs and debuffs. Sure, there could be a raidheal cd or raid tricks... but it isn't that bad.

I wouldn't call us top damage, but our damage in pve is fine, and certainly good. I am nervous about not bringing a raid cooldown, however.

[Deleted]

Last night in arena a mage was tanking me on melee, its so ridiculous to see ranged classes to just go to melee range with rogue and while I am getting tone of damage I can do fuck all besides getting spammed ABSORB all over my screen :-)

[D3athsting]

Last night in arena a mage was tanking me on melee, its so ridiculous to see ranged classes to just go to melee range with rogue and while I am getting tone of damage I can do fuck all besides getting spammed ABSORB all over my screen :-)

They should make shiv also dispel magic effects (like tranq shot), something like:
Glyph of shiv: your shiv also dispels magic effects but cooldown is increased by 3 seconds"

[Tsuna]

Dont know about everyone else, but my issue with warriors is "he looks at me and i die".

They have to look at you!? I don't believe it...