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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Valiea View Post
    Actually, the only major issue with the 4set is the fact that Divine Purpose procs another free HoPo, you will see a divine purpose nerf to where it no-longer generates the extra holy power from the PvP set..

    That said, the PvP set will really only last this one tier as item level and sheer stats and better itemization will outweigh the lucky 50+ Holy Power you generate a fight.
    On fights like will or Garalon, you're looking at closer to 100 free HoPo. On top of that, it's the only thing that makes Hpally competitive at high level raiding. I rank on fights where I'm still behind our jab-jab-uplift machine.

  2. #42
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deipotent View Post
    On fights like will or Garalon, you're looking at closer to 100 free HoPo. On top of that, it's the only thing that makes Hpally competitive at high level raiding. I rank on fights where I'm still behind our jab-jab-uplift machine.
    Paladins are competitive without the 4 piece. Monks are getting nerfed. Just because you weren't being monks raid heals does not mean paladins weren't competitive. Monks lack single target/spot healing and raid utility. Both things paladins bring. Ranking is not as important as you are making it out to be.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Paladins are competitive without the 4 piece. Monks are getting nerfed. Just because you weren't being monks raid heals does not mean paladins weren't competitive. Monks lack single target/spot healing and raid utility. Both things paladins bring. Ranking is not as important as you are making it out to be.
    At no point in my post did I say I was concerned at all about ranking. The point I was making is that with 4pcPVP, we can provide higher output. Pallies were the most underpowered healer above HPriests (after the ninja buff to disc/holy). We had a capped output level, poor mana regen and one questionable raid cd. Once you hit a point in a raid boss where the raid cannot stack, an Hpally became close to useless having to us HS+DL to generate HoPo. Of course, you don't HAVE to use DL, but nothing's worse than watching your HR only hit 3 targets.
    Last edited by Deipotent; 2012-11-20 at 01:15 PM.

  4. #44
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deipotent View Post
    At no point in my post did I say I was concerned at all about ranking. The point I was making is that with 4pcPVP, we can provide higher output. Pallies were the most underpowered healer above HPriests (after the ninja buff to disc/holy). We had a capped output level, poor mana regen and one questionable raid cd. Once you hit a point in a raid boss where the raid cannot stack, an Hpally became close to useless having to us HS+DL to generate HoPo. Of course, you don't HAVE to use DL, but nothing's worse than watching your HR only hit 3 targets.
    We were never and have never been the most underpowered healer since MoP hit. Our output is on par if not higher than shaman, druids and priests. They have good burst cooldowns, but their output outside those cooldowns is tends to be lower than ours. Hate to break it to you Hand of Sacrifice, Protection, etc are utility. Beacon is also utility. And pally regen is fine. At the beginning when you looked at world of logs it was all monks and then the occasional Paladin not using the 4-piece. Yea paladins were the weakest healer. /sarcasm

    The 4piece provides good HPS but it also requires another healer to carry you in spot healing/spike damage to allow you to continue to blanket the raid. So basically someone else doing the work to allow you to top meters.
    Last edited by Freia; 2012-11-20 at 02:32 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    We were never and have never been the most underpowered healer since MoP hit. Our output is on par if not higher than shaman, druids and priests. They have good burst cooldowns, but their output outside those cooldowns is tends to be lower than ours. Hate to break it to you Hand of Sacrifice, Protection, etc are utility. Beacon is also utility. And pally regen is fine. At the beginning when you looked at world of logs it was all monks and then the occasional Paladin not using the 4-piece. Yea paladins were the weakest healer. /sarcasm
    This is simply not true, without the pvp 4 set the ranking of the healers were as follows: Priest<Paladin=<Druid<Shaman<Monk. Druids would generally pull ahead on fights with low raid damage while paladins would pull ahead on a fight such as garalon because we can spam aoe heals on that fight and in 10 man druids would almost always pull ahead.

    Paladins raid cooldown does not heal people but make them take less damage and that is the main reason as to why paladins are below druids. When it comes to shamans and monks they are simply untouchable. I raid with one of the best shamans in the world (despite being in a pretty low rank guild) and we just killed Elegon 25 heroic for the first time yesterday. During that kill not only did he keep up with my healing, he kept up with it despite the fact that I was using 4 pieces of pvp set and we both ranked number 1 in the world for our respective classes.

  6. #46
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    This is simply not true, without the pvp 4 set the ranking of the healers were as follows: Priest<Paladin=<Druid<Shaman<Monk. Druids would generally pull ahead on fights with low raid damage while paladins would pull ahead on a fight such as garalon because we can spam aoe heals on that fight and in 10 man druids would almost always pull ahead.

    Paladins raid cooldown does not heal people but make them take less damage and that is the main reason as to why paladins are below druids. When it comes to shamans and monks they are simply untouchable. I raid with one of the best shamans in the world (despite being in a pretty low rank guild) and we just killed Elegon 25 heroic for the first time yesterday. During that kill not only did he keep up with my healing, he kept up with it despite the fact that I was using 4 pieces of pvp set and we both ranked number 1 in the world for our respective classes.
    Not true. Druids are not as good as you are making them out to be and neither are shaman. Shaman are good but not better than paladins by any means. Both have their advantages. Paladins without the 4-piece are more than viable.
    Last edited by Freia; 2012-11-20 at 04:06 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Not true. Druids are not as good as you are making them out to be and neither are shaman. Shaman are good but not better than paladins by any means. Both have their advantages. Paladins without the 4-piece are more than viable.
    You cant just says its not true without any form of arguements or proof, I provided mine and you probably didnt even look at it. Shamans are MUCH better than paladins atm and the only fights where they shouldnt beat paladins are Lei Shi and Will (normal mode). It might be harder to see good results as a shaman but as I said I play with one of the best in the world, he ranked number 1 shaman on Elegon heroic, I ranked number 1 paladin and we did IDENTICAL healing. If I had not been using pvp set he would have outhealed me by minimum 10%. As for druids vs paladins, druids will beat paladins on 60% of the fights provided the paladin doesnt have the pvp set, we are really really close to being equal and if they didnt have tranquility druids would be worse than paladins.

  8. #48
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    You cant just says its not true without any form of arguements or proof, I provided mine and you probably didnt even look at it. Shamans are MUCH better than paladins atm and the only fights where they shouldnt beat paladins are Lei Shi and Will (normal mode). It might be harder to see good results as a shaman but as I said I play with one of the best in the world, he ranked number 1 shaman on Elegon heroic, I ranked number 1 paladin and we did IDENTICAL healing. If I had not been using pvp set he would have outhealed me by minimum 10%. As for druids vs paladins, druids will beat paladins on 60% of the fights provided the paladin doesnt have the pvp set, we are really really close to being equal and if they didnt have tranquility druids would be worse than paladins.
    You did the exact same thing. You said druids and shaman are better with absolutely no proof to back it up other than your guild logs. Your posts are basically nothing but made up statistics. Sorry the logs of one fight is not proof. Pretty sure there are people that would post logs that show the opposite. And tranquility is not enough to make druids better than paladins.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    You did the exact same thing. You said druids and shaman are better with absolutely no proof to back it up other than your guild logs. Your posts are basically nothing but made up statistics. Sorry the logs of one fight is not proof. Pretty sure there are people that would post logs that show the opposite. And tranquility is not enough to make druids better than paladins.
    What you need to do is go over every single fight in the game on WoL and then substract 20% from the highest paladins on the list and then compare them to the highest shamans/druids, when you do that you will see druids and shamans are doing more raw healing than paladins. Druids only does it because of tranqulity, shamans does it regardless of their raid healing cooldowns.

  10. #50
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    What you need to do is go over every single fight in the game on WoL and then substract 20% from the highest paladins on the list and then compare them to the highest shamans/druids, when you do that you will see druids and shamans are doing more raw healing than paladins. Druids only does it because of tranqulity, shamans does it regardless of their raid healing cooldowns.
    So you are saying a shaman would have more raw healing than paladins without Healing Tide and Spirit Link Totem? I am not going to agree with that. Especially not on fights where people can't stack for healing rain to be effective.

    So I need to take 20% healing off the top paladins to account for the pvp bonus I am guessing. How about the logs of paladins not using it like the one below?

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...s=75&e=561#Kmy

    You can see from his buffs gained is not using the 4-piece. And he uses holy avenger. High numbers are possible without the 4-piece. Paladins are not weak by any means without the 4-piece. The 4-piece just provides an extremely easy way of getting good numbers.
    Last edited by Freia; 2012-11-20 at 06:19 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    You cant just says its not true without any form of arguements or proof, I provided mine and you probably didnt even look at it. Shamans are MUCH better than paladins atm and the only fights where they shouldnt beat paladins are Lei Shi and Will (normal mode). It might be harder to see good results as a shaman but as I said I play with one of the best in the world, he ranked number 1 shaman on Elegon heroic, I ranked number 1 paladin and we did IDENTICAL healing. If I had not been using pvp set he would have outhealed me by minimum 10%. As for druids vs paladins, druids will beat paladins on 60% of the fights provided the paladin doesnt have the pvp set, we are really really close to being equal and if they didnt have tranquility druids would be worse than paladins.
    I have to disagree, looking at the data on WoL (at least at the high-end). Yes, your guild is close to the peak players of their classes - however, most fights are dominated by Monks (with the other major exception being Disc Priests). The lowest-ranked healers at the top level? Resto Druids and HPriests. Paladins are about high-mid, and that's only because Monks are ridiculously OP healers at the moment.

    It may be that the skill differential at the middle-end backs up your assertion - I don't have enough data to hand for that question. But at the high end? Yeah, no.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    So you are saying a shaman would have more raw healing than paladins without Healing Tide and Spirit Link Totem? I am not going to agree with that. Especially not on fights where people can't stack for healing rain to be effective.
    Spirit link totem is not being shown on WoL, and Im speaking from a 25 man perspective only, where healing rain will always hit a decent amount of players. I agree that paladins single target heals are stronger and that shamans will do much worse in 10 man but thats not the case for 25 man raiding.

  13. #53
    In before they replace 4pc PvP bonus with something insanely useless (or they might just change it to "has a chance").

  14. #54
    I have four 458 PvP blues, and I also have the T14 4-piece (2 496 and 2 483, thanks LFR!). Trying to figure out which I'm better off running. 10-mans, healing partner is a monk. Before I started using pvp set, we were about even on almost every fight, 2-healing everything.

    More on topic, they should put the PvE 4-piece bonus on PvP gear and put the PvP bonus on PvE gear. That sounds perfect to me!
    Humans are the only species on the planet smart enough to be this stupid.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Spirit link totem is not being shown on WoL, and Im speaking from a 25 man perspective only, where healing rain will always hit a decent amount of players. I agree that paladins single target heals are stronger and that shamans will do much worse in 10 man but thats not the case for 25 man raiding.
    SLT has been up to 4mil healing for some of our shamans on WoL.

    I said that pallies were underpowered because throughout DS, I was number 1 throughout every fight as Rdruid or Hpally and going into MoP, I was having a very hard time keeping up with our shamans. Especially at the very beginning of the tier, Shaman mana usage was insanely low and with Telluric Currents, pallies have the lowest mana regen.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    The 4piece provides good HPS but it also requires another healer to carry you in spot healing/spike damage to allow you to continue to blanket the raid. So basically someone else doing the work to allow you to top meters.
    Here someone has understood the fact that only top end guilds have understood and almost no one in these forums. That is the reason why looking at the kill videos of Method, Blood Legion etc. have paladins at the bottom of the charts. You think they don't have better classes available? They would, but they need paladins for this particular duty. Someone has to always spot heal the spike damage. There is no better class than paladin at the moment so it would be retarded to put someone else in the duty that is not the best for them just to be able to top the meters.

    Just try to read behind the meters and you'll see that healing meters doesn't matter that much. Everyone in the healing setup has their own duty.

    TL;DR Eternal Flame blanketing is not that good for the sake of your raid than you would think.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Here someone has understood the fact that only top end guilds have understood and almost no one in these forums. That is the reason why looking at the kill videos of Method, Blood Legion etc. have paladins at the bottom of the charts. You think they don't have better classes available? They would, but they need paladins for this particular duty. Someone has to always spot heal the spike damage. There is no better class than paladin at the moment so it would be retarded to put someone else in the duty that is not the best for them just to be able to top the meters.

    Just try to read behind the meters and you'll see that healing meters doesn't matter that much. Everyone in the healing setup has their own duty.

    TL;DR Eternal Flame blanketing is not that good for the sake of your raid than you would think.
    How can you heal spike dmg faster then Instant heals that can crit up to 150k+? You got instant divine lights?...

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by HealsofSteel View Post
    How can you heal spike dmg faster then Instant heals that can crit up to 150k+? You got instant divine lights?...
    WoG initial heal is the same as EF. However, when doing EF blankerting you spend HP all the time. When doing normal healing you can save HP to be more reactionary.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    WoG initial heal is the same as EF. However, when doing EF blankerting you spend HP all the time. When doing normal healing you can save HP to be more reactionary.
    Question: are you bringing up Word of Glory because you're saying that we should be using Sacred Shield instead? I thought the argument was "PvP gear EF blanket vs. PvE gear EF normal" and not "PvP gear EF blanket vs. Sacred Shield"

    I had just assumed that if I was not to be using PvP gear, I'd still be using Eternal Flame. I just would be using it the way it was more meant to be done - as a HoT you can apply here and there to people that might need it, but not as a go-to facet of our design.
    Humans are the only species on the planet smart enough to be this stupid.

  20. #60
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HealsofSteel View Post
    How can you heal spike dmg faster then Instant heals that can crit up to 150k+? You got instant divine lights?...
    Seriously? Its a pretty well know fact that this playstyle isn't good at handling spike damage and that the support healer has to cover it. At times you will probably need to cast divine lights. That is why people suggested getting the beacon glyph and macroing beacon into your divine light so you can get the HP from casting it. Infusion of Light Divine Light cast is 1 second, less if you have any haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karazee View Post
    Question: are you bringing up Word of Glory because you're saying that we should be using Sacred Shield instead? I thought the argument was "PvP gear EF blanket vs. PvE gear EF normal" and not "PvP gear EF blanket vs. Sacred Shield"

    I had just assumed that if I was not to be using PvP gear, I'd still be using Eternal Flame. I just would be using it the way it was more meant to be done - as a HoT you can apply here and there to people that might need it, but not as a go-to facet of our design.
    He isn't saying anything about Sacred Shield. He is saying you are using your holy power to blanket heal over triage healing as in reacting to the damage. So a big spike could happen when you don't have the HP to handle it.
    Last edited by Freia; 2012-11-21 at 03:39 PM.

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