1. #1

    Mistweaver Evaluation Please

    Ok, so our guild had a resto druid re-roll a monk. This is first week of raiding on this toon, please offer useful, constructive feedback in terms of spell usage and cds based on these logs if possible (all fights are 10m normal):

    Stone Guards:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o.../?s=631&e=1009

    Feng:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=1396&e=1792

    Spirit Kings:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=4889&e=5359

    Elegon:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...=10218&e=10730

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
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    One thing that really bugs me is that high amount of Surging Mist. I see why he might be doing it as he is obviously not Jab'ing for Chi, but I'd never ever suggest that to anyone. I don't know if there's really need for the high amounts of SCK in a 10man setting, I usually get through stuff with much less SCK and rather relying on a solid Chi generation -> Uplift.

    My main suggestion is: Get your Monk to Melee. While it is something you might have to get used to, it is a simple way to produce some extra Healing and also a steady predictable and less expensive way than spamming Surging Mist to get your Chi up. I am 2healing most fights with a Holy Pally myself, and I haven't ever found a good reason to cast Surging Mist apart from maybe the split-up phase on Elegon when people failed to reset their stacks properly (all speaking for 10 normal modes). The Pally covers everyone nicely, and my job is the constant group support through AOE damage phases. Eminence Healing is a bonus, so speccing Xuen instead of RJW is also a good hint.
    I am really getting too old for this.

  3. #3
    Hi Slak!
    Your monk is healing as a resto druid would. For us monks it is much effective to go and gain chi by meeleing the boss/adds than to stay in range and cast heals. More chi = more uplifts = more mana tea = more healing done.
    I'll try to put the monk healing 101 into a few points:
    1. Go meele range, keep two buffs from blackout kick so you can heal by your white attacks as well.
    2. Use Renewing Mist on CD.
    3. Keep at least 2 CHI ready all the time, but never let a CHI to go to waste.
    4. Use Mana Tea on CD when under ~90% of mana.
    5. Use Expel Harm on CD. It's the cheapest reliable source of CHI.
    6. Life Cocoon!
    7. Use Thunder Focus Tea to renew the Renewing Mist a few seconds before a huge raid damage is coming.
    8. Do not use Surging Mist unless absolutely necessary. It's not your job to heal the tank.

    So I'd say your healer is doing the following mistakes:
    1. Healing as a druid, not as a monk
    2. Not using Revive often enough
    3. Not using Mana Tea on CD
    4. He should use Thunder Focus Tea more. There's only one usage on Gara'jal.

    He should learn to gem properly:
    1. Satisfactory amount of Spirit is over 11k, he should gem pure Spirit until then. It is a very individual thing thou. I've been running 10m normal/heroics with Holy/Disc Priest and a Paladin, and I found that anything over 10 500 is quite OK for me.
    2. Gemming 320 Mastery is a big NO! Mastery is almost useless for 10m raiding! For 10m the stat priority is Spirit up to satisfcation > Int > haste up to 1350(not worth getting more until 5.1) > crit > mastery.

    Talents:
    1. Since healing through Eminence is much better(meele healing), make your Monk spec Xuen and let him pop before a bigger amount of damage is incoming, or right after heroism.

    Glyphs:
    1. Let him glyph Renewing Mist in the last slot. Specially for the fights where the raid is widely spread out.
    Last edited by Jezis; 2012-11-14 at 04:55 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jezis View Post
    Hi Slak!
    Your monk is healing as a resto druid would. For us monks it is much effective to go and gain chi by meeleing the boss/adds than to stay in range and cast heals. More chi = more uplifts = more mana tea = more healing done.
    I'll try to put the monk healing 101 into a few points:
    1. Go meele range, keep two buffs from blackout kick so you can heal by your white attacks as well.
    2. Use Renewing Mist on CD.
    3. Keep at least 2 CHI ready all the time, but never let a CHI to go to waste.
    4. Use Mana Tea on CD when under ~90% of mana.
    5. Use Expel Harm on CD. It's the cheapest reliable source of CHI.
    6. Life Cocoon!
    7. Use Thunder Focus Tea to renew the Renewing Mist a few seconds before a huge raid damage is coming.
    8. Do not use Surging Mist unless absolutely necessary. It's not your job to heal the tank.

    So I'd say your healer is doing the following mistakes:
    1. Healing as a druid, not as a monk
    2. Not using Revive often enough
    3. Not using Mana Tea on CD
    4. He should use Thunder Focus Tea more. There's only one usage on Gara'jal.

    He should learn to gem properly:
    1. Satisfactory amount of Spirit is over 11k, he should gem pure Spirit until then. It is a very individual thing thou. I've been running 10m normal/heroics with Holy/Disc Priest and a Paladin, and I found that anything over 10 500 is quite OK for me.
    2. Gemming 320 Mastery is a big NO! Mastery is almost useless for 10m raiding! For 10m the stat priority is Spirit up to satisfcation > Int > haste up to 1350(not worth getting more until 5.1) > crit > mastery.

    Talents:
    1. Since healing through Eminence is much better(meele healing), make your Monk spec Xuen and let him pop before a bigger amount of damage is incoming, or right after heroism.

    Glyphs:
    1. Let him glyph Renewing Mist in the last slot. Specially for the fights where the raid is widely spread out.
    11k spirit is most definitely not necessary. I've healed 10m with 7200 spirit (i flask and food intellect) with a holy paladin and been fine. Spirit is to personal preference, but you really don't need that much. It's all about spell selection and cooldown/chi management. I'll give a few more tweaks to the healing priority given above when I get home, but he's got most of it correct.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    11k spirit is most definitely not necessary. I've healed 10m with 7200 spirit (i flask and food intellect) with a holy paladin and been fine. Spirit is to personal preference, but you really don't need that much. It's all about spell selection and cooldown/chi management. I'll give a few more tweaks to the healing priority given above when I get home, but he's got most of it correct.
    While MGV Normal might be OK with 7200 Spirit, I would like to see you 2 man heal Garalon with that amount of Spirit. The Spirit requirements really depend on how far you are into the content. I am raiding heroic modes, and I can't personally imagine having 7200 Spirit doing it. The more Spirit you have, the more mistakes can other raid members do on taking avoidable damage, etc. And even for normal MGV having 1000 Mastery/Haste after cap/Crit converted into 1000 Spirit gives much better eHPS.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord TheWindWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jezis View Post
    So I'd say your healer is doing the following mistakes:
    2. Not using Revive often enough
    Chipping in on this. Revival is a horrible raid CD compared to tranquility if there's nothing to dispell. That said, using it on cooldown will take a lot of heat off of your other healer and yourself and give you the big numbers.


    2. Gemming 320 Mastery is a big NO! Mastery is almost useless for 10m raiding! For 10m the stat priority is Spirit up to satisfcation > Int > haste up to 1350(not worth getting more until 5.1) > crit > mastery.
    If they had just left the change about our healing sphere's popping when left unattended this could easily be homogenized between 10 and 25 man but as it stands, yeah, our mastery blows for small groups. If you can't be yelling on vent "STEP ON THE GREEN BUBBLES" every few minutes then they tend to just go to waste.


    1. Since healing through Eminence is much better(meele healing), make your Monk spec Xuen and let him pop before a bigger amount of damage is incoming, or right after heroism.
    While I usually agree with this, love kitty <3, RJW has it's uses if there are going to be continuous add phases or you're willing to put the money into respeccing for trash. RJW kicks pre-Gara'jal trash butt like you wouldn't believe and gives massive eminence procs.


    1. Let him glyph Renewing Mist in the last slot. Specially for the fights where the raid is widely spread out.
    Can anyone confirm that this glyph isn't a loss when applied and simply left on? I find 5-mans and even LFR on occasion to have issues with a mage or hunter getting a jump then being too isolated to pass it on. It'd be kind of nice to offset that with a "glyph it and forget it" treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    11k spirit is most definitely not necessary. I've healed 10m with 7200 spirit (i flask and food intellect) with a holy paladin and been fine. Spirit is to personal preference, but you really don't need that much. It's all about spell selection and cooldown/chi management. I'll give a few more tweaks to the healing priority given above when I get home, but he's got most of it correct.
    While everything you said as a whole is completely true, the first part needs to be heavily modified by the second part. Someone who fistweaves exclusively needs >10k spirit as per simple math. Someone who doesn't fistweave at all doesn't need very much comparatively. (nor will they have the same numbers, but that's a debate for another topic) The middle ground, that "perfect balance" is often cited by heroic raid healers in this same subforum as needing either >9000 spirit or having a good deal of spirit proccing trinkets/enchants to cover for it. Our spec is great at prolonged mana management but terrible at recovering from a sudden surge of mana loss. (another healer dies, tank forgets a cooldown, a few people get stunned in a "void zone", ect...) Which is to be expected because all healers are bad at recovering from a spiral. Hence why Resto Shamans and either Priests make great buddies on progression. (mana running out? let me get that for us.)
    No matter what path you walk in life we all have to face Jaraxxus one day.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Chipping in on this. Revival is a horrible raid CD compared to tranquility if there's nothing to dispell. That said, using it on cooldown will take a lot of heat off of your other healer and yourself and give you the big numbers.




    If they had just left the change about our healing sphere's popping when left unattended this could easily be homogenized between 10 and 25 man but as it stands, yeah, our mastery blows for small groups. If you can't be yelling on vent "STEP ON THE GREEN BUBBLES" every few minutes then they tend to just go to waste.




    While I usually agree with this, love kitty <3, RJW has it's uses if there are going to be continuous add phases or you're willing to put the money into respeccing for trash. RJW kicks pre-Gara'jal trash butt like you wouldn't believe and gives massive eminence procs.




    Can anyone confirm that this glyph isn't a loss when applied and simply left on? I find 5-mans and even LFR on occasion to have issues with a mage or hunter getting a jump then being too isolated to pass it on. It'd be kind of nice to offset that with a "glyph it and forget it" treatment.



    While everything you said as a whole is completely true, the first part needs to be heavily modified by the second part. Someone who fistweaves exclusively needs >10k spirit as per simple math. Someone who doesn't fistweave at all doesn't need very much comparatively. (nor will they have the same numbers, but that's a debate for another topic) The middle ground, that "perfect balance" is often cited by heroic raid healers in this same subforum as needing either >9000 spirit or having a good deal of spirit proccing trinkets/enchants to cover for it. Our spec is great at prolonged mana management but terrible at recovering from a sudden surge of mana loss. (another healer dies, tank forgets a cooldown, a few people get stunned in a "void zone", ect...) Which is to be expected because all healers are bad at recovering from a spiral. Hence why Resto Shamans and either Priests make great buddies on progression. (mana running out? let me get that for us.)
    First off, I am a heroic raid healer, I raid with promethean and my monks name is Astraios, and my throughput is fine thanks. Second off, I "fistweave" insofar as using jab to generate chi when the raid isnt stacked. When stacked, SCK>jab. I do have the price of progress and the relic of chi'ji. If by fistweave you mean something else, please say so, but I can already tell you those methods will almost universally be a healing loss except for a few special cases.
    I don't like proc throughput, it's RNG and wasted half the time. proc regen is almost always useful (if you proc a regen trinket and youre at full mana, im not sure what to say lol...). Thus I have 2 spirit/mana regen trinkets, but so does everyone I look at (even those stacking spirit, so...) Chi burst is very strong at spot healing a group stunned in something like a void zone, actually, but thats another topic. I generally find that on wipes my mana is low and on correct attempts my mana is fine, but I've never had my raid wipe because I went OOM (Or go oom before a fight ended) and I run with 7300 spirit, and flask/food intellect. (Speaking of which. You should almost universally ALWAYS flask/food intellect. You get 2 spirit per 1 int on gems, but only 1 spirit per 1 int on flask/food.)

    The glyph of RnM hasn't noticably effected my healing in any content I've run. RJW is normally a healing loss unless you hit a ton of adds for eminence comparing to just using a chi burst or uplift.

    So for some other corrections on people in this thread:
    It's true revival isn't exactly as strong as most other raid healing CD's. But it is instant. And can do 1.4mil healing. In one global. Meaning that druid is channeling tranq for 2mil healing over like 8 seconds. During the rest of those 7s (of which we get 7 globals comparing to their 4-5) we will destroy their total healing (though they do get a lot from HoT's, so it isn't as bad as I describe I suppose.)
    However a proper TFT can get you 16-20 RnM's on raid. That makes uplift do almost 910k healing (if you had 20 targets). Which we can chain 4 uses in a row with chi brew. Which gives us unparalleled burst (I can outburst my resto shammies in raid if I do it properly, and my resto shammies are pretty freaking good.) That's something like 5mil healing in 5 globals, which...yeah, no other healer can sustain. Sure we drop off after that, but SCK/EH or SCK/RnM/uplift will still sustain 200k~ hps, which gives us insane burst AND insane sustain, if you do it correctly. (Of course that assumes no overheal. If your other healers are particularly strong then your healing will be lower, period, because we lack smart heals. I used to get rank1-3 parses on WoL in my old guild at the time of the parses, now I'm no where near. Such is the nature of having a strong healing core and it's effects on monks.)
    In conclusion, the instant cast nature of our raid cooldown makes it weaker but still in the end makes monks do higher throughput during a "healing" phase than most classes given perfect setup and little overheal. In practice however, rshams will generally outburst you because they're healing is almost all smart. But monks are still #2 (even w/o using revival), while being able to do their "burst" every 45s, as comparing to an rshammies 3min CD's.
    Blackout kick is almost always a healing loss if you can use chi burst/uplift with low overhealing.
    Pooling chi is nice and all, but I wouldnt say "Try to keep 2chi always but dont cap chi". There are times where you chi dump and times where you dont need healing. In times where healing is needed, use chi as necessary.
    Don't use surging mist, especially not as much as you did, it's very mana inefficient and not particularly strong either. If you really wanted to spot heal, then either give them EnvM or use healing spheres. Or let someone else do it, since we're very weak at it, in general. I don't really understand how he is using surging mist 23 times on elegon and no going OOM. Thats something like a third of my expected mana pool during that fight.
    As stated he needs to use RnM on CD. He couldve used it 47 times on elegon and used it 34. It needs to be used on CD so you can TFT it at the proper time with a high amount to heal burst damage.
    More optimal use of chi brew will help if he has any mana problems (used on CD it's 2700~ mp/5.) He couldve used it four times and used it 3 times.
    He should use chi burst if he can only hit 10 or less targets with uplift (assuming he hits 6+ targets with chi burst.)
    Other than the spirit stacking, stat weights given earlier are correct: spirit (til you dont go oom. Which if done properly can be as low as 7500 or less) > int > haste (to 1350. never going to be higher unless SCK/chi burst becomes stronger such that more haste for chi gen is better, but it sucks right now.) > crit > mastery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any haste above 1350.
    Last edited by Astraios; 2012-11-14 at 06:55 PM.

  8. #8
    The "required" spirit numbers have never made sense to me.

    I did a 10m with some other barely-geared companions, and I was matching or exceeding their healing done, but I ended the fight with half mana while they were running on fumes. And I had under 6k spirit (no spirit flask). Was fistweaving.

  9. #9
    I assume you are raiding 25m? It's so much different between 25 and 10m. You get more hymns/mana tides, other healers help you with outhealing bursts. While on 10m I'm usually the only one outhealing the bursts because the other healers are mostly focusing on tanks. Sure they drop an instant here and there, but I do most of the raid healing. While in 25m you are sure to hit at least 7 targets most of the times when you are using SCK, I usually hit 5 targets at most and I need to TOP THEM OUT quickly. Take the HoF final boss for instance, there are those pool explosions on the first phase. So if other people screw up, I could get two explosions within like 5-7 seconds. When we killed it for the last time, it happened like 3 times during the fight and I can't imagine how I'd be able to outheal it AND be able to heal properly until the end of the fight with 7200 Spirit.
    I have checked your WoL and you are doing 37 200 eHPS on Garalon 25 while I did roughly 76 000 eHP on Garalon 10 last week. Do you see the difference?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jezis View Post
    I assume you are raiding 25m? It's so much different between 25 and 10m. You get more hymns/mana tides, other healers help you with outhealing bursts. While on 10m I'm usually the only one outhealing the bursts because the other healers are mostly focusing on tanks. Sure they drop an instant here and there, but I do most of the raid healing. While in 25m you are sure to hit at least 7 targets most of the times when you are using SCK, I usually hit 5 targets at most and I need to TOP THEM OUT quickly. Take the HoF final boss for instance, there are those pool explosions on the first phase. So if other people screw up, I could get two explosions within like 5-7 seconds. When we killed it for the last time, it happened like 3 times during the fight and I can't imagine how I'd be able to outheal it AND be able to heal properly until the end of the fight with 7200 Spirit.
    I have checked your WoL and you are doing 37 200 eHPS on Garalon 25 while I did roughly 76 000 eHP on Garalon 10 last week. Do you see the difference?
    First off, I went into 10m and healed with a holy paladin and got multiple top logs at time of the parses and never went OOM, granted this was H MGV, but thats besides the point. The healing was just as easy and my mana still never dropped, WITHOUT mana tides, innervates, hymn of hopes, etc. (that is to say, I lasted until the end of fights.)
    If you cant hit more than six targets with SCK its probably not worth using. Just jabx2/uplift. And burst healing the entire raid to full as a MW is ridiculously strong on 10m where TFT puts RnM on EVERY target. [Heck, you can get 10 targets w/o TFT, though it's slightly unreliable.]
    Not to mention, if you're stacking spirit you're making it HARDER to burst heal. When you burst heal you're going to have 4 chi saved up and then chi brew, revival, or be jabbing for chi. Either way you're going to spend the same amount of mana (very little) with upliftx2/cooldown or jabx2/uplift. The burst healing will happen with jabx2/uplift. I can sustain jabx2/uplift for pretty much six minutes STRAIGHT (on a fight like garalon.) No amount of spirit will change your most efficient way to burst heal "at all". On the other hand, more int/crit/mastery will make your burst healing STRONGER. IE: Spirit will do nothing to help you burst heal, and int/crit/mastery makes it easier/stronger. So you're still just gimping yourself.
    Second off, On garalon 25H I did 122k HPS while also helping tank heal I ended with well over 90k mana, which means that even w/o hymn and mana tides I probably wouldnt have gone OOM. On Gara 25 normal I did 130k w/o tank healing. So I'm really not sure what you're looking at, but you're just flat out incorrect here. The only possible thing you could be looking at is an LFR or two where I virtually AFK'd the entire fight.
    The logs of my garalon kills: (not sure if it will let me link, so these might not show up
    H Garalon 25.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7007&e=7434
    N Garalon 25
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8704&e=9108
    Both attempts are 120k+.
    I apologize if I'm being curt/rude, but you pretty much are spreading complete misinformation (on me and the class in general) and I do not appreciate it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    First off, I went into 10m and healed with a holy paladin
    But we aren't talking about holy paladin. That is a different class with different mechanics. Your point is really irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    When you burst heal you're going to have 4 chi saved up and then chi brew, revival, or be jabbing for chi.
    You CAN'T always have 4 chi saved up and then chi brew, specially if the bursts happen due to other people in the raid failing the mechanics(the last boss from HoF example from my previous post)

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    So I'm really not sure what you're looking at, but you're just flat out incorrect here.
    I've used the latest log from WoL: /reports/rt-khz549fbk284o729/sum/healingDone/
    My apologies then, but my point stands. Healing in 25 is different from 10. Specially when you are to only healer to top the raid of instead of having 3 people doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    I apologize if I'm being curt/rude, but you pretty much are spreading complete misinformation (on me and the class in general) and I do not appreciate it.
    That's okay, I'm here because I want to learn more about the class and help less informed people to do so. I also didn't want to insult you/spread bad things about you, be assured that my intention is to have a good discussion.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jezis View Post
    But we aren't talking about holy paladin. That is a different class with different mechanics. Your point is really irrelevant.
    You CAN'T always have 4 chi saved up and then chi brew, specially if the bursts happen due to other people in the raid failing the mechanics(the last boss from HoF example from my previous post)
    I've used the latest log from WoL: /reports/rt-khz549fbk284o729/sum/healingDone/
    My apologies then, but my point stands. Healing in 25 is different from 10. Specially when you are to only healer to top the raid of instead of having 3 people doing it.
    That's okay, I'm here because I want to learn more about the class and help less informed people to do so. I also didn't want to insult you/spread bad things about you, be assured that my intention is to have a good discussion.
    I meant I two healed with a holy paladin in 10m. My performance talk was on my monk. My partner was a holy paladin. (we 2 healed everything.)
    If your job is to raid heal, why can't you have 4 chi saved directly before burst? Aren't the explosions predictable? I only killed the fight once (monday) and I could mouse over them to see the time left on them and prepare accordingly. Maybe we're talking about different things here.
    That log you linked is counting the entire night, including 16 wipes on garalon and 20 wipes on windlord. You have to go to the actual kill to see what happened. Judging HPS based on a wipe can be extremely inaccurate depending on what happened.

    Also, I'm a bit perplexed on how spirit would help you heal burst. Our most efficient and quickest way to generate chi is with jab. Even if you're in "panic chi generation mode" the fastest way is to jab for more chi (or expel harm or renewing mist). The ultimate cost of which will be 12k mana per uplift (if you use jab). Whether you generate it before or after, I'm not seeing how spirit will help sustain burst healing, except for more longevity via regen. But if you're going to generate the same chi to heal the same damage either way, then more spirit isnt going to get you more, faster, or stronger jabs. It's just going to get you more jabs "later in the fight" assuming you go OOM.

    Assuming theres no damage reduction, then the explosions should do around 200k/person or 2,000,000 damage total. For me throughput stacking (with int and crit) and hitting 10targets with uplift, I would heal that in 5s with 2 RnM ticks and 4 uplifts (with chi brew), or 8s with 3 RnM ticks and 4 uplifts. Thats assuming the other healer is doing literally no other healing. So thats around 48k mana per explosion. Doesnt seem particularly mana intensive to me, considering that 48k would be lower because of RnM/Expel harm being used on CD and giving chi. Given a 10m fight, I have an expected mana pool of around 2mil. So 50k/explosion seems very sustainable. The only kind of burst which should be expensive is single target, but I get the impression you are raid healing and not single target healing, so your partner should have the single target burst covered.

    One quick question, do you use chi brew? If so, do you use it on cooldown, only when needed, or try to optimize the use as close to on CD as possible while still using it for "burst" healing? Because on CD its around 2700 MP5, which is around 4.3k spirit. So optimizing the use of it as much as possible while still getting close as possible to full benefit of it is huge.

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