WW dps

[Saycheese]

Hey, i've been playing a mage as my main for quite a while now, but I really want to make a change. I love the monk class, and I'm considering rerolling to a WW/MW monk as my new main. My question is whether or not WW dps is competitive in raids right now compared to other melee classes. I'm not doing any HM's right now, but I am concerned that if I reroll I won't be able to stay competitive over the course of the expansion and as I progress into HM's.

[Faids]

Competitive now? Yes. Competitive later? Maybe

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

[Deleted]

We are ranked somewhere around mid range for the moment but I would say every class is definitely competitive, but it depends on the player. I don't see why Windwalkers wouldn't be competitive later on.

[Secrecy]

We are ranked somewhere around mid range for the moment but I would say every class is definitely competitive, but it depends on the player. I don't see why Windwalkers wouldn't be competitive later on.

Because we gain next to nothing from set bonuses and scale very poorly with mastery.

[Deleted]

Because we gain next to nothing from set bonuses and scale very poorly with mastery.

If Blizzard doesn't keep the 'new' class attractive later on they are doing something wrong. So I wouldn't jump on that gun.

[Secrecy]

If Blizzard doesn't keep the 'new' class attractive later on they are doing something wrong. So I wouldn't jump on that gun.

There's no jumping the gun going on, WW monks are currently are comparatively the best they will be this tier without changes and we have yet to see any changes on the PTR nor any blue posts suggesting changes are incoming. We are currently doing OK but this will change when classes get their set bonuses, we gain 0% damage from 2-set and the last I heard about 1% from 4-set.

[Deleted]

There's no jumping the gun going on, WW monks are currently are comparatively the best they will be this tier without changes and we have yet to see any changes on the PTR nor any blue posts suggesting changes are incoming. We are currently doing OK but this will change when classes get their set bonuses, we gain 0% damage from 2-set and the last I heard about 1% from 4-set.

Doesn't mean they won't change anything in the future, unless you got an all seeing eye

[Coldhandz]

http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

Nice to see that improvements are on the way....Oh wait...

[snegro]

If Blizzard doesn't keep the 'new' class attractive later on they are doing something wrong. So I wouldn't jump on that gun.

I really don't think Blizzard are going to give monks any special attention just because they're the new class with the expansion. Death Knights really destroyed class balance for a long time and I think this time Blizzard is trying harder than ever to show that they can incorporate a new class and have it balanced in the middle.

[Deleted]

I've been topping meters on many bosses for a while as WW in 10man raids, granted we are only 2/6 heroic in MSV so far but most of the people in our raid know what they are doing, the only bosses where i don't top are those fights with lot of cleaving going on, but i am still competitive (top5) in those.
Everytime i state this people say "blahblah the rest of your raids must be noobs herpderp".

Well.....

http://i.imgur.com/KglVm.jpg

DPS meter from the world first Shek'Zeer, guess what? A ww monk on top...... Guess that lame excuse of "in high end guilds it's different" can be flushed now also!

[Obamatheone]

Competitive now? Yes. Competitive later? Maybe]

Spec wise we are in the middle, but not class and imo thats what is important.
Its not a big deal to change from arcane to frost...

Classwise we are 8/11 with 1 hands, and 11/11 (Dead last) in 2h.
(And yes 2h is significant, cuz unlike your spec, you can't choose what drops.)

[Nikkaszal]

Jesus Christ people, the OP has stated that he's not currently doing hardmodes and is hoping to progress to them later.

The Simcraft numbers are based around best-in-slot gear and theoretically "perfect" gameplay, for this current tier of raiding.

How the hell are they supposed to be relevant to a guy who just wants to not suck at DPS and hold his raid back? No DPS class or spec holds their raid back unless you are doing top-notch cutting-edge race-for-world-first shit where yes, you might stack or bench classes as situations require.

And how the hell do you look at it and say "Oh, we don't scale very well, clearly that will never ever change at all ever in the future so might as well just give up on being decent"? That's probably one of the more idiotic ideals.


Here's the truth of the matter: If you're a good player, and your gear isn't shite, you will do cracking DPS no matter what class you are. For 99% of the playerbase (ie those not involved in world/server first races), being benched due to low DPS will be because of their lack of skill as a player, not shortcomings in the class they play. "Oh wow, my class is last on Simcraft when put under almost-inhuman circumstances, guess every other player who's doing less DPS than me must be completely braindead" - this is BULLSHIT. It's the same sort of thinking as practised by people who look at it and say "Aff locks are number one, so I'm going to reroll and magically do the best DPS in the entire world" then wonder why the hell they're doing less damage than the tank.


To answer the OP: Do you enjoy playing your monk more than your mage? Is your raid able to accomodate an extra melee in place of a ranged? If the answer to both is yes, then go ahead and play your Monk and don't give a toss about anyone who says you'll be wasting your time. As long as you don't suck, there's nothing holding you back from doing top DPS in your raid so long as you have the gear and focus for it.

[Obamatheone]

Jesus Christ people, the OP has stated that he's not currently doing hardmodes and is hoping to progress to them later.

The Simcraft numbers are based around best-in-slot gear and theoretically "perfect" gameplay, for this current tier of raiding.

How the hell are they supposed to be relevant to a guy who just wants to not suck at DPS and hold his raid back? No DPS class or spec holds their raid back unless you are doing top-notch cutting-edge race-for-world-first shit where yes, you might stack or bench classes as situations require.

And how the hell do you look at it and say "Oh, we don't scale very well, clearly that will never ever change at all ever in the future so might as well just give up on being decent"? That's probably one of the more idiotic ideals.


Here's the truth of the matter: If you're a good player, and your gear isn't shite, you will do cracking DPS no matter what class you are. For 99% of the playerbase (ie those not involved in world/server first races), being benched due to low DPS will be because of their lack of skill as a player, not shortcomings in the class they play. "Oh wow, my class is last on Simcraft when put under almost-inhuman circumstances, guess every other player who's doing less DPS than me must be completely braindead" - this is BULLSHIT. It's the same sort of thinking as practised by people who look at it and say "Aff locks are number one, so I'm going to reroll and magically do the best DPS in the entire world" then wonder why the hell they're doing less damage than the tank.

In real game situations we would be lower than whats listed on simcraft due to FoF timing and movement.

The choice of what character you play can absolutely make a huge difference in the progression of your guild, especially 10 man. As you can see in simcraft the difference in top dps and worst is 30% = 30k dps. 30k dps in a 10 man raid is a LOT, and can easily mean the difference between a wipe and a kill on any number of encounters.

The charter selection screen boss is by far the largest determining factor in your overall DPS, and don't pretend its not. DPS classes aren't that hard to figure out really. If you can only play one at 90% efficiency to a sim, then chances are you will only be around 90% on another as well.

Also, stop pretending that DPS doesn't matter if you aren't going for world 1st.

To answer the OP: Do you enjoy playing your monk more than your mage? Is your raid able to accomodate an extra melee in place of a ranged? If the answer to both is yes, then go ahead and play your Monk and don't give a toss about anyone who says you'll be wasting your time.

Sure play what you want, that is true.

As long as you don't suck, there's nothing holding you back from doing top DPS in your raid so long as you have the gear and focus for it.

Yes there is... If anyone else in the guild is playing one of 8/11 other classes at the same level he is, then on average they will outperform him. It doesn't matter how good you are if the class doesn't have the #s to back it up.
WW don't have those #s

[Deleted]

Yes there is... If anyone else in the guild is playing one of 8/11 other classes at the same level he is, then on average they will outperform him. It doesn't matter how good you are if the class doesn't have the #s to back it up.
WW don't have those #s

World first 6/6 HoF heroic meter would like a word with you:

http://i.imgur.com/KglVm.jpg

Stop basing shit on sim-parses.

[Obamatheone]

World first 6/6 HoF heroic meter would like a word with you:

Stop basing shit on sim-parses.

One single fight means absolutely nothing.

You could look at raidbots and see about the exact same trend. We are extremely low in the class rankings, and at best midway in specs.

[Deleted]

One single fight means absolutely nothing.

You could look at raidbots and see about the exact same trend. We are extremely low in the class rankings, and at best midway in specs.

In reply to your previous comment, it means absolutely everything. You claim that if players are playing on the same high level, monk is chanceles, in reaction to that i link a recount parse of some of the top players in the world, where competition on dps is excessively high and a WW monk comes out on top.
This makes your whole previous point invalid, that was my point.


For that matter, WW comes out as 6th dps spec on 25man heroic overall on raidbots, did you evne look there yourself? Only 5k dps behind on the #1: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/


On average we are obviously not topping fights, but WW is in a pretty decent state at the moment and nowhere near as bad as the doomsayers make it to be. WW is a very viable spec at the moment, the only real issue is that we are lacking a cleave, which cna easily be fixed.
The variation in DPS averages at the moment comes from the fact that there is a very large gap between people who have no clue how to play a WW and people who are good with it, the latter is competing in the top dps, the first group is on the low end and complaining.

[Secrecy]

In reply to your previous comment, it means absolutely everything. You claim that if players are playing on the same high level, monk is chanceles, in reaction to that i link a recount parse of some of the top players in the world, where competition on dps is excessively high and a WW monk comes out on top.
This makes your whole previous point invalid, that was my point.

It's not just one fight, it's the world first kill of a fight with a very, very specific setup. There are no rogues, no DPS DKs, there are 3-4 moonkins. We have no idea what tactics they used, they could have had the monk AoEing the entirety of phase 2 while everyone else was single target DPSing, who knows. If you think it is at all representative of Monks on the whole, or even how Monks will be on this fight in 3 weeks, you are deluded.

[Deleted]

It's not just one fight, it's the world first kill of a fight with a very, very specific setup. There are no rogues, no DPS DKs, there are 3-4 moonkins. We have no idea what tactics they used, they could have had the monk AoEing the entirety of phase 2 while everyone else was single target DPSing, who knows. If you think it is at all representative of Monks on the whole, or even how Monks will be on this fight in 3 weeks, you are deluded.

Actually we do know as the whole fight was streamed, and no the monk was not aoe'ing, he was doing singletarget dos....

[Obamatheone]

Actually we do know as the whole fight was streamed, and no the monk was not aoe'ing, he was doing singletarget dos....

Even if everything was fair, it still doesn't mean anything.

1 encounter a sample size does not make sir.
This is just basic statistics.

[Nikkaszal]

Even if everything was fair, it still doesn't mean anything.

1 encounter a sample size does not make sir.
This is just basic statistics.

Nope, what it shows is that everyone who says DPS monks are poor and will never out-DPS a skilled mage purely because Simcraft told them so are just flat-out wrong. A world first Heroic end-boss kill is rather indicative of "competitive" status, and in this case the Windwalker sneered at your postulating and crab-bucket theoretical conclusions and just went ahead and kicked arse.

The point? Simcraft is seen far too often as a glass ceiling. It tells people where they should be rather than what they can do. And here we have one very skilled Windwalker who says "balls to that" and went out and performed better than everyone else.