Thread: Disc Set Pieces

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Mana efficiency is never null and void in a non limitless scenario. You cannot spam only PoH & rapture 100% of the time, it's an impossibility in our current gear level. You're also running with max 10k spirit, which means rapture is returning 20k mana, which is mana positive by only ~2k - not enough to run mana neutral spamming PoH.

    Plus you're not even going to get highest HPS running with this strategy. You're far better using smite/penance when there is no raid damage & then stack aegis / pump out big heals when the damage actually appears.
    You forgot flask + food. That's an additional 2600 mana per rapture, when our shaman pops mana tide, I get almost 70-80k mana back. Which puts me at 4.5k positive on average and 50k positive every three minutes. Also mindbender (alone), HoH + Mindbender + Torrent combo, Torrent on cd, and sleeping potions which return 45k mana over 10 seconds which also gives me an additional 27k mana from my inate Mp5.

    Also, damage when it appears? We're disc priests, me MITIGATE. PoH right now heals for 25k on average and generates a 20k shield. On five people that's 125k healing + 100k aegis or 225k total healing, that's not including critical strikes or spirit shell. PoH is easily the highest HpM and HpS spell we have. I do see stacking evangelism if there is a fight with very little damage for 5-6 seconds and then using SS with Evangelism but those fights are few and far between. I never said to NOT use penance, I just said that the 4 piece bonus isn't crazy good and that I don't always Penance on CD, especially if there's heavy raid damage which is a lot of the time.
    Last edited by Brauhm; 2012-11-21 at 07:47 AM.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Mana efficiency is never null and void in a non limitless scenario. You cannot spam only PoH & rapture 100% of the time, it's an impossibility in our current gear level. You're also running with max 10k spirit, which means rapture is returning 20k mana, which is mana positive by only ~2k - not enough to run mana neutral spamming PoH.

    Plus you're not even going to get highest HPS running with this strategy. You're far better using smite/penance when there is no raid damage & then stack aegis / pump out big heals when the damage actually appears.

    Hm, I don't know about you but I have 11,547 spirit on my priest. Add in another 375 from food and 1000 from flask that's a lot more than 10k spirit ^^ With mindbender, having a Resto shaman in the group, Hymn as well as rapture I don't seem to ever have mana problems, that is of course in normal mode, heroics we haven't gotten around to yet. I figure I will end up at 13,000 spirit raidbuffed when I'm fully geared in normal mode gear so even if I didn't have a shaman in the group to cheese mana regen I don't see myself running oom.

    So, during normal raid nights: (fully buffed)
    For clarification: Mana back numbers are after shield cost have been taken into account, it is the net gain in total from every rapture you use.

    I have 12,922 spirit (21.400spell power with Mage buff)
    I run with Inner will since we have a mage to apply spell power for me so no use for Inner fire
    A shield costs 15.555 mana (with Inner will)

    In other words, the net gained, outside of Mana tide totem and trinkets is 10,000 mana.

    If I have Darkmoon card proc add in another 3,000 spirit which puts me at 15,949 spirit which makes rapture yield 16,343 mana.
    If I have Darkmoon card proc AND mana tide totem up which puts me at 31,898 spirit, which makes rapture yield 48,421 mana. And let's not forget Hymn and Mindbender, I do not have exact data on how much they restore because I'm to bad at digging stuff like that up. Also if you manage to get your hands on DMC + spirits of the sun you will probably never run oom no matter what spells you cast because almost 7000 spirit is just mindblowingly much, 14,000 mana more on every rapture during it's procc and that it lasts 20 seconds is just bizarr.

    I have been doubting the setbonuses quite hard, but I guess some of you are right in here, always nice to get some "special" bonuses form the set which isn't obtainable anywhere else. Stacking evangelism faster is always nice and sort of cuts out more smites, with this setbonus perhaps penance glyph will be even better? think I'll try them out sooner or later, for now I will continue to pass set pieces for our paladin healer.

    EDIT: looking at paladin and warlock setbonus, I'd say they get more out of them than I would, I rather pass and gear up the ones that would gain a lot from using it rather than "quality of life" setbonuses for myself ^^
    Last edited by prizzm; 2012-11-21 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Added last thought on setbonuses

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by prizzm View Post
    I run with Inner will since we have a mage to apply spell power for me so no use for Inner fire
    just wanted to highlight this bit,

    inner fire and spell power buff stacks. it is additive and not multiplicative
    Redsparowe#2548 <Crayola Inc>, Lightbringer EU

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparrow View Post
    just wanted to highlight this bit,

    inner fire and spell power buff stacks. it is additive and not multiplicative
    Are you 100% sure about that? because in that case there must be a tooltip error, the character sheet does not update if I have Arcane brilliance and inner fire :/ Well atleast not for me... Or maybe I'm just not paying to much attention, I have to doublecheck then!

    Edit: I'm sorry it's just me not paying attention, it does stack and it equalls about 10k healing if you hit 5people with prayer of healing (about 2-2,5k per person/cast)
    Last edited by prizzm; 2012-11-21 at 11:08 AM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Brauhm View Post
    I do see stacking evangelism if there is a fight with very little damage for 5-6 seconds and then using SS with Evangelism but those fights are few and far between.
    Not sure that's true, I feel like most fights this tier follow the pattern of burst -> light/moderate damage -> burst. But then, I also didn't realize that we had infinite mana so I really have a lot to learn apparently.

  6. #46
    Spirit flask and food? I swapped to Intel ages ago for nearly every fight.

  7. #47
    You claim 125K heals and 100K shields from PoH. Let's account for crit and bump it up to 150K heals and 125K shields. That's obviously great. Penance does about 135K damage, 135K healing, and 36K shielding. It does it for less mana and in 20% less time, and it's a smart heal that's not restricted to individual groups. Under conditions where all 5 people in a group have significant HP deficits, and will take damage again within the next 15 seconds, PoH is the better choice. If we drop that number to 4 people in a group needing healing and all 5 DA bubbles getting used, we get 225K damage handled with PoH and 171K damage handled with Penance. Almost identical in terms of HPS (though PoH has a *slight* edge) but Penance is cheaper and not restricted by groups and is a smart heal and stacks Evangelism and contributes to killing the boss more quickly. Let's call it a wash. In situations any less ideal for PoH, Penance is the clear winner. Practically speaking, both are incredibly useful, and I'm looking forward to the day when I can cast Penance every 6 seconds if I want to.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Brauhm View Post
    You forgot flask + food. That's an additional 2600 mana per rapture, when our shaman pops mana tide, I get almost 70-80k mana back. Which puts me at 4.5k positive on average and 50k positive every three minutes. Also mindbender (alone), HoH + Mindbender + Torrent combo, Torrent on cd, and sleeping potions which return 45k mana over 10 seconds which also gives me an additional 27k mana from my inate Mp5.

    Also, damage when it appears? We're disc priests, me MITIGATE. PoH right now heals for 25k on average and generates a 20k shield. On five people that's 125k healing + 100k aegis or 225k total healing, that's not including critical strikes or spirit shell. PoH is easily the highest HpM and HpS spell we have. I do see stacking evangelism if there is a fight with very little damage for 5-6 seconds and then using SS with Evangelism but those fights are few and far between. I never said to NOT use penance, I just said that the 4 piece bonus isn't crazy good and that I don't always Penance on CD, especially if there's heavy raid damage which is a lot of the time.
    I didn't forget, you had just under 9k spirit last time I checked, so unless this has drastically changed in the meantime...

    Let's be generous & give you near 11k spirit (what I have unbuffed). You get 12k combat healing, plus 2k from mana tide, plus 2k from a potion you can't use if you're spamming PoH (since apparently in your scenario there are no luls in damage at all), plus 250 from arcane torrent, plus 1.5 from rapture, plus 4k from mindbender. So now you're on 21-2k mana regen, when you need at least 25-7k to sustain PoH spam alone (depending on haste). You've lost the potion after 2 mins so that's a 6k deficit from there onwards per 5 seconds. On most fights you're going to run oom in that scenario, not to mention your tank will probably die unless you heavily over gear the content. You're also never going to use rapture exactly on CD, or mindbender, so those numbers above are very generous.

    Aegis also caps... tell me what you're doing in between draw flames, because if you're spamming PoH still you're going to cap aegis - the gap is too big & there is zero raid damage. Please tell me what you're doing on Elegon outside of add <25% HP because again, there is zero raid damage & the gap is too big - aegis caps. You can do ~20 million damage on that boss, and heal the raid too, which is far more valuable than just spamming PoH all day long. What about Spirit Kings too, where is all the raid damage during Crazed on Meng? I guess you could stack aegis on the other forms (Subetai/Zian), but the raid damage is very minor during those phases, and mostly spike on one or two raid members. Where is the raid damage on Will of the Emperor outside of Titan Gas on normal? I suppose if your group is really bad & the raid is being meleed all the time, but that's unlikely.

    Then we can go on to HoF.... First boss... raid damage on MC? Raid damage on Attenuation? I guess this depends on your group skill though. Second boss we have very VERY light raid damage outside of unseen strike, stacking aegis is completely pointless. 4th boss damage outside of rain of blades? Basically non existant other than the tank. Similar story on Lei Shi in ToES too.

    But I guess you're right, and I just really lack experience of raid encounters, and should just jolly on spamming PoH 24/7

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    Not sure that's true, I feel like most fights this tier follow the pattern of burst -> light/moderate damage -> burst. But then, I also didn't realize that we had infinite mana so I really have a lot to learn apparently.

    ^

    Quote Originally Posted by prizzm View Post
    I have been doubting the setbonuses quite hard, but I guess some of you are right in here, always nice to get some "special" bonuses form the set which isn't obtainable anywhere else. Stacking evangelism faster is always nice and sort of cuts out more smites, with this setbonus perhaps penance glyph will be even better? think I'll try them out sooner or later, for now I will continue to pass set pieces for our paladin healer.

    EDIT: looking at paladin and warlock setbonus, I'd say they get more out of them than I would, I rather pass and gear up the ones that would gain a lot from using it rather than "quality of life" setbonuses for myself ^^
    You likely have the spirit to do as he suggests, especially if you're using Inner Will (which would be a complete waste if you're spamming PoH!). That doesn't mean it's the best course of action on most fights however. I find this tier that more often than not it is the tank dying that is your major problem, not the raid. There are times when you should stack aegis, Rain of Blades as above is a good example, but then outside of that ~50% of your time you're going to be smiting the boss & healing the tanks. Reduced Penance CD is a huge gain on fights such as this, which as Maleric points out, is most fights this tier!
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2012-11-21 at 04:12 PM.

  9. #49
    just realized i don't even wanna argue anymore
    Last edited by Brauhm; 2012-11-21 at 04:34 PM.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Brauhm View Post
    i never questioned your ability to raid or heal

    i agreed with the op that with how much we use poh that its possible to not use it on cd while its currently 10 seconds, let alone 6 seconds.

    in addition i never said that i never used penance, and while i don't use rapture on perfect cd, i do mindbender on cd, i watch my cds carefully and the second its up i hit it

    and another thing, if i cap on aegis and everyone is at full, i DON'T CAST, can i do damage? sure. do i need to? no. we're not hitting enrage timers.

    Elegon, it would be dumb not to smite heal because of the damage bonus, just like magmaw's head and deathwing's tentacles during cataclysm.

    you are extremely condescending when people are just trying to give input, if we're wrong, prove it. yet every single log i see on WoL seems to back up spamming PoH.
    True your first posts were reasonable & not worth responding to. It's your latter posts when you start giving advise, with actually very little experience to base that advise upon. I disagree with you too, I would think most people here are at least clearing normals, if not heroics - I doubt you get many LFR crowd here.

    You do cast, you smite for evangelism as you said before, and you tank heal w/ Penance/Holy Fire.

    High healing from PoH =/= PoH spam. This is me on Feng,

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-er...?s=5980&e=6394

    While most of the healing comes from PoH & Spirit Shell, there are huge sections with no healing from either (atonement). We're doing it this week 2 heal, so no doubt I'll probably rank even higher, but the healing usage will be almost the same.
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2012-11-21 at 04:49 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by prizzm View Post
    I run with Inner will since we have a mage to apply spell power for me so no use for Inner fire
    You know they stack, right? Inner Fire ALL THE WAY. Inner Will as Disc is for, I dunno, slightly faster corpse runs.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePants999 View Post
    Inner Will as Disc is for, I dunno, slightly faster corpse runs.
    How about the whole "reducing the mana cost of instant cast spells by 15%"? That seems pretty big and you could argue for it since, I don't know if you know this, but we cast PW Shield a lot on top of other instant cast spells. Let me blow your mind right here: it could also be a playstyle choice.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by notdryad View Post
    How about the whole "reducing the mana cost of instant cast spells by 15%"? That seems pretty big and you could argue for it since, I don't know if you know this, but we cast PW Shield a lot on top of other instant cast spells. Let me blow your mind right here: it could also be a playstyle choice.
    note: this is from a raiding perspective

    Unless you have very low spirit (full blues) I can't ever see a use case for Inner Will...mana shouldn't be an issue, if it is either:
    a) multi proc rapture (possible on windlord, bladelord, garalon, feng..etc),
    b) improve rapture proccing,
    c) get a resto shaman in the group, combine with a) and b) for unlimited mana.

    If you want to play sub-optimal as a playstyle choice, that's ok too.

  14. #54
    why are you guys even talking about stacking DA with PoH? We got a new spell, spirit shield, for that, and even if you where going 2 spam PoH while there is a down phase, there is so much other stuff 2 do insted, like, adding that extra dmg 2 the boss? 40k dps is nothing 2 laugh off...

    Edit: also, you get AA stacks :O Its like gettin paid 2 times!!!!1 imba!
    Edit2: regarding dmg: even if your not hitting enrage timers, it may earn your raid one more try on that next boss before raid is over, get you quicker 2 next phase(elegon is a good example), and so on...
    Last edited by enyesi; 2012-11-28 at 07:23 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by notdryad View Post
    How about the whole "reducing the mana cost of instant cast spells by 15%"? That seems pretty big and you could argue for it since, I don't know if you know this, but we cast PW Shield a lot on top of other instant cast spells. Let me blow your mind right here: it could also be a playstyle choice.
    Danmofo covered most of what I'd want to say. But remember that bigger heals = fewer heals, and consider what 10% extra spell power on ALL your heals does as compared to 15% less mana on a small proportion of heals.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Prayer of Healing.
    i agree totaly!

  17. #57
    As fair as I can tell from my experience (16/16 normal 2HC MV) is that penance is far from useless. You should be DPSing (smite, holy fire & penance) and constantly healing through atonement to help your raid especially in HC unless like other said your raid can outgear content (I doubt you can outgear HC content atm).

    So for me penance 4 sec less cooldown should be a good way to maintain atonement heal + evangelism stacks + DPS support.


    About PoH, you should be using Spirit Shell + PoH spam before damage spike. And during damage after shield breaks, Cascade + PoH).
    If you're raiding with a heavy AoE healer like Monk, or Druid you should only cast PoH when most part of a group is taking damage. It will result lot of overheal even if you stack DA.
    Last edited by Aseneth; 2012-11-29 at 11:59 AM.

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