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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I'm sorry what part didn't you understand in the context of what was implied here?

    People on this threads so freely toss around the term mary sue like they have a clue to what it means, when in reality they are copying a buzz word someone else said on a childish train of thought.

    Characters we play as are the biggest mary sues in wow, because they are involved in every single detail of the game, you don't see it, because you can't imagine something wrong with your own character as a representation of yourself.

    Lastly, if a developer of a fictional franchise is involved with multiple characters, and having many of those characters central to the story, it can not possbile make any single character a sue, thats beyond ridiculous if you don't understand that.
    You are right on the fact that the term Mary Sue is used too loosely, but that doesn't take away the root of the discussion: Thrall is a writer's favourite. Whether you want to term it Mary Sue or just "badly written character who always seems to survive every trial against all odds", that's arguing semantics and not helping the discussion. Even though i agree that players character are the biggest Mary Sues, that does not automatically mean lore characters cannot also be Mary Sues (or badly written characters who always seem to survive every trial against all odds), as you seem to imply in your reasoning.
    And why a writer who is involved with many characters cannot have a personal favourite who survives everything is indeed impossible to understand for me.

    I'm just happy you proved my point by responding in an unneccesarily personal way to an open discussion. From now on, I'll just agree to disagree with you, as I have seen others in this thread declare to do as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dynati View Post
    Patience and reason do appear to be in short supply these days in the gaming community.

  2. #82
    Brewmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneru View Post
    You are right on the fact that the term Mary Sue is used too loosely, but that doesn't take away the root of the discussion: Thrall is a writer's favourite. Whether you want to term it Mary Sue or just "badly written character who always seems to survive every trial against all odds", that's arguing semantics and not helping the discussion. Even though i agree that players character are the biggest Mary Sues, that does not automatically mean lore characters cannot also be Mary Sues (or badly written characters who always seem to survive every trial against all odds), as you seem to imply in your reasoning.
    And why a writer who is involved with many characters cannot have a personal favourite who survives everything is indeed impossible to understand for me.

    I'm just happy you proved my point by responding in an unneccesarily personal way to an open discussion. From now on, I'll just agree to disagree with you, as I have seen others in this thread declare to do as well.
    Exactly.

    What would happen to the horde if Vol'jin became warchief?

    I would like it .. even though i never personally liked trolls as race.. he is fun.

    inb4 trassk insulting me for proposing vol'jin

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I have said this so many freaking times I've lost count. The player and there character with there ingame avatar, doing literally EVERYTHING, being involved in EVERYTHING, from killing old gods to the lich king to deathwing, the players avatar is the BIGGEST Mary Sue in the game.
    Why would in-game avatars be anything else than Mary Sues in this game? Players shouldn't be anything that can make huge differences in this game, that is up to the lore characters of this game. In fact, shouldn't be anything than flawless. It would take too much game mechanics and newer players might find this game as entertaining as they can't change the lore because everybody else did it. It's not similar (and shall never be similar) to the game mechanics of The Elder Scrolls.

    And yes, we did "do" everything from defeating Old Gods to destroying The Destroyer. And if we didn't do anything of these, we wouldn't be playing a game, but watching a movie. I don't know about you, but I'd rather do something in a game rather than watching it.
    Last edited by Beograth; 2012-11-16 at 09:44 AM.

  4. #84
    atm?

    playing with "knikkers" all day having fun and making babies

  5. #85
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    Taking player characters into the Mary Sue debate is silly in itself. You think Tirion had 12 million adventurers with him fighting the Lich King? We are not canon, we represent 'a group of adventurers', who help lore characters deal with their respective problems. That 'group of adventurers' isn't canonically always the same. We are the symbol of co-operation, the anonymous force that helps the famous heroes. Lore-wise, we are the support.

    This can be hard to comprehend at times since WoW as a game is a huge amusement park, where we all get to ride the attractions and have fun doing it. Put all that into the RTS format like the older games? BAM, you're a Footsoldier/Grunt, who may or may not die to a couple of ghouls. Fighting by your side are other equally as weak and nameless Footsoldiers/Grunts and a lore character or two. Our characters in truth are weak and irrelevant, it's just the amusement park staff that commends us for our skill in getting through the ride and hand us a token we get to redeem at a gift shop.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooba View Post
    You can't dismiss concerns over Thralls family and then say that others are disallowed on account of being "old". Well, you can, but you'd be hypocritical. Those mentioned aren't exactly on death's door and are perfectly capable of leadership. The fact that "they're too old" just shows the classic Western bias and obsession with youth. A culture that the Orcs don't share, incidentally.

    The biggest reason why Thrall shouldn't be the next Warchief is meta. It's because he's already a massive Mary Sue, and needs some real personality beyond being Metzen's idealized form of himself. "Thrall-the-wise-badass-but-peaceful-with-no-personality-flaws-or-even-quirks-and-perfect-family-man-who-always-gets-it-right-and-saving-the-world" can only happen so many times before the bad storytelling gets really annoying.

    FYI, i didnt invent the "they are too old" thing, it was in The Shattering book, so you are wrong that its a western bias that the orcs dont share.

    And here comes the real bias, the Mary Sue bias... No personality? Thrall has more personality that Saurfang or Eitrigg by a LONG SHOT, VERY LONG SHOT. Thrall does makes mistakes, not as many as the stupid Garrosh but it dfoes makes them, Garrosh as Wachief being one of them
    Thrall has a lot of personality, and its not a mary sue characters like some people without any real knowledge about Warcraft lore says.

  7. #87
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelic View Post
    I hope they bring him back for the final raid. His speech with Garrosh in Borean Tundra had always stuck in my mind, especially:
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...

    I hope Blizzard remember they wrote that, all those years ago.
    Blizzard fails completely at lore.

    They made a deliberate effort to make sure people knew Garrosh had changed and DID learn from Saurfang in Cata and now they make him turn 180, it's just retarded.

    ---

    Anyways Rexxar for warchief.. he bring the Ogres to the horde

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneru View Post
    When I say we need a new leader, I mean Garrosh has to be replaced. This is based on what we've been told and what I've seen happening in the 5.1 previews: Garrosh is going off the hook and the Horde needs a new leader.
    What I'm trying to say is that Thrall does not necessarily have to be that leader. Of course, he could come back, take over and be Warchief again, but come on, it's been the same since Warcraft 3! He's been (part of) the 'solution' to so many crises in the last 8 years (Horde's encampment, Horde's survival in Durotar, the world's survival against Archimonde, the world's survival against Deathwing), that come on, he shouldn't come back to where he was those years ago. He is a cool character (I don't want to go into the Mary Sue debate here), but he was already Warchief before and I don't think it would be good to place him in that position again. Blizzard states they want to bring War back into Warcraft, well, Thrall as Warchief hasn't really helped in that before and it would be horrible if they would change him into some Alliance-hating Horde leader who wants to fight the Alliance. If they want to keep the war between Horde and Alliance going, Thrall should not be Warchief. If, however, they choose to "end" the war after Garrosh's death and have us working together, say because the Burning Legion is coming to Azeroth or something, then I would still prefer another character as Warchief. Placing Thrall back as Alliance-friendly Warchief would put his story back to before Cataclysm and would make no sense to me. His story has continued, he is now a father and husband, leader of the Earthen Ring, and I just hope they give another character a chance to shine as leader of the Horde.

    In short: why we need a new leader is obvious, and why it should not be Thrall is that it would be my personal preference if they would give another character a chance to shine instead of pushing Thrall back to where he was before.
    Actually, BECAUSE he built the horde and BECAUSE he was already leader and people know how he leads its why he IS the only choire that makes sense lorewise.

    Think in the story, the Orc society comes from a tyranny that they just took down, they need a new leader, but they cant risk having another tyrant. Societies int his situation go with familiar things, which in this case is Thrall. He is young, he is a great leader, he is available, and he is very capable of rebuilding the horde ties that were broken all these years. And he has proven to be able to control SYlvannas.

    Again, story wise, the only option that fits is Thrall.

  9. #89
    They're making adult films in the pregnant genre. Location unknown!

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Blizzard fails completely at lore.

    They made a deliberate effort to make sure people knew Garrosh had changed and DID learn from Saurfang in Cata and now they make him turn 180, it's just retarded.

    ---

    Anyways Rexxar for warchief.. he bring the Ogres to the horde
    Rexxar cant be Warchief. Rexxar wants to live in the wilds in peace. He will help the horde if he thinks he needs to, but he wont do live to a city to do the dull duties of a Warchief.

    Let the Horde Heroes in their place.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Szemere View Post
    Same place Tirion Fordring goes every time you help him kill Lich King. Some dark place hopefully never to be seen again, cause Blizzard doesn't know how2protagonist
    plaguelands would like to say hello.

    you moron.

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