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  1. #61
    The Patient Ganaza's Avatar
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    playing 2h is a dps loss
    !!!
    13/13HC

    #Acherus (storm.coldront.net) - Death Knight IRC

  2. #62
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganaza View Post
    playing 2h is a dps loss
    !!!
    1k times this.

    /thread
    Death Knight -> Italiandk
    Shaman -> Cashrain
    Paladin -> Healyoutru
    Priest -> Ängel
    Monk -> Skadoosh
    Mage -> Icydeath

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    1k times this.

    /thread
    You're a lfr 2h scrub!

  4. #64
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    You're a lfr 2h scrub!
    I know...
    Death Knight -> Italiandk
    Shaman -> Cashrain
    Paladin -> Healyoutru
    Priest -> Ängel
    Monk -> Skadoosh
    Mage -> Icydeath

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganaza View Post
    playing 2h is a dps loss
    !!!
    Quick, somewhat related question, why is your haste higher than mastery?

  6. #66
    You can't always control the gear that drops for you... Gan was lamenting about this a few days ago in chat. Personally I'd prefer his gear to my own any day!

    Additionally... haste actually sims higher than mastery for single target dps until you start getting bis gear so its not too big of a deal.

    With the amount of top 10 parses gan has, I think we can give him some leeway

  7. #67
    Haha, three very valid points. I would personally take those weapons and 10k more unbuffed AP over my setup, too.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganaza View Post
    playing 2h is a dps loss
    !!!
    And playing the current dual-wield frost is a fun loss. I acknowledge that it is superior at the moment, but I just can't come to terms with the "swishy" sound of
    constant howling blasts and the fact that I feel like a icy-warlock.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganaza View Post
    playing 2h is a dps loss
    !!!
    Too bad there's currently not a single encounter available in the game (to the EU during the posting of this anyway) where playing dual-wield over 2H would actually matter simply because the encounters aren't tuned around DPS.

    Also this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    And playing the current dual-wield frost is a fun loss. I acknowledge that it is superior at the moment, but I just can't come to terms with the "swishy" sound of
    constant howling blasts and the fact that I feel like a icy-warlock.
    I'm also still a Blood Elf because I couldn't imagine myself playing any other DK than a Blood Elf female.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    And playing the current dual-wield frost is a fun loss. I acknowledge that it is superior at the moment, but I just can't come to terms with the "swishy" sound of
    constant howling blasts and the fact that I feel like a icy-warlock.
    Ehhh... having to sit and wait for 11-15% of the time as 2h is a fun loss to me... So to each their own.

    Plus there's a bunch of fights this tier where dw > 2h by a sizable amount soooo yeah...

  11. #71
    i think every top dk watches a swing timer, but tbh. the majority of dks should just focus on priority, if they become fixated on watching the swing timer they will actually lose dps.

    imo, you need to watch the swing timer to max dps, but you use your best judgement to hit fs or wait for ob, this is sort of hard for an average dk, it becomes 2nd nature as skill increases. but, i wouldnt wait any longer than .5 sec. if i see ob wont be up before my swing timer imma hit fs. as i dont want to chance overwriting a km proc. and im wasting resourses by not using fs.

  12. #72
    The Patient Ganaza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesà View Post
    Too bad there's currently not a single encounter available in the game (to the EU during the posting of this anyway) where playing dual-wield over 2H would actually matter simply because the encounters aren't tuned around DPS.
    Perhaps not specifically tuned around DPS, but for the vast majority of bosses higher DPS = easier boss fight. Even enrage has been an issue on multiple boss fights during progression.
    13/13HC

    #Acherus (storm.coldront.net) - Death Knight IRC

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganaza View Post
    Perhaps not specifically tuned around DPS, but for the vast majority of bosses higher DPS = easier boss fight. Even enrage has been an issue on multiple boss fights during progression.
    Of course, that's always the case, but the single target DPS difference (especially at this gear level) between the two playstyles is so negligible that it won't make a difference in an actual real-life situation, and the AoE fights (of which there's right about one at this point) are so loosely tuned it won't matter either.

  14. #74
    Fights where aoe dps or cleave makes a significant contribution -
    Stone Guards
    Will
    Garajal
    Feng if you're going for records
    Elegon
    Spirit Kings
    Garalon
    Windlord
    Ambershaper
    Empress
    Sha of Fear

    Fights where being able to dps on the move effectively is useful that haven't already been mentioned
    Zorloc
    Protectors
    Tsulong

    You can't deny DW > 2h in most cases this tier

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by ant13 View Post
    In my opinion, due to the current nature of 2H Frost, waiting for 1-2 secs for OB is not a dps loss,
    This isn't a popularity contest. It is not a subjective question. Your opinion is not pertinent.

    All the data says that waiting on killing machine is not a DPS gain. This is deeply unintuitive, so lots of people resist it. That's fine; it's not like a couple percent one way or the other from one player will make or break progression. But there is a right answer and a wrong answer.

    The right answer is that you should ignore KM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    The right answer is that you should ignore KM.
    Then explain why removing all the conditions that refer to killing machine from the simcraft priority list is a dps loss.

  17. #77
    It shows as a 0.8% DPS gain, yes, but before you crow in victory, consider that simcraft profiles are tuned to within the nth degree to eke out the most damage possible. That doesn't mean humans can reliably execute those profiles. For example, here's one line in the standard 2H frost profile.

    actions+=/frost_strike,if=!buff.killing_machine.up&(Blood=0|Frost=0|Unholy=0)

    This says you should only frost strike if killing machine isn't up and you don't have any blood, frost, or unholy runes available. Hmm. How often does that situation come up? Would you be able to reliably react to it properly when it does? And the big question-- how much performance is that line worth? According to simcraft, that action is worth 0.6% of total DPS. But it's impossible. You'll never do it.

    Nobody actually plays that way. The way you actually play 2H frost is something like this:

    keep diseases up
    soul reaper when <=35%
    plague leech if you notice blood plague is <3s (and you aren't lazy like me and skipped PL)
    HB on rime
    obliterate whenever you won't cap runic power
    otherwise, frost strike

    And lastly, assuming that you are a WoW god and can reliably execute the simcraft profile every time while also not standing in the fire (which is fairly unlikely, I know I can't), it seems like a ton of work watching swing timers, etc, for a theoretical max gain of 0.8%.

  18. #78
    There's a massive difference between saying that paying attention to killing machine is a dps loss, and saying that it's actually a dps gain but most players just aren't good enough to do it.

    And having km with no runes up isn't exactly a once in a lifetime occurrence. If I have two runes, obliterate because km procced, and then km procs again, I'm probably in that situation. And I'm going to frost strike if rime procced from my last obliterate or if I won't have runes for obliterate before my next auto attack lands.

    I'm not claiming to be a perfect player. Far from it, I make mistakes on almost every pull of every boss regardless of it it's progress or farm. But gaining dps from paying attention to killing machine is not nearly as difficult as you are making it sound.

    Also, anything even approaching 0.8% extra dps is a large gain when you're gaining it just by using procs differently.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2012-11-20 at 10:36 PM.

  19. #79
    You're making it sound like forgetting about KM entirely is a good thing. You're basically saying it's a DPS loss waiting 0.5 seconds for a KM to proc to Obliterate (assuming doing so won't resource cap you) rather than using it on Frost Strike immediately.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    But it's impossible. You'll never do it.

    YOU DON'T KNOW ME.

    But like a couple months ago weren't you talking about the innacuracy of sims? Like arguing it hardcore with me? I can't remember. But put aside some near-impossible-to-replicate-in-play program and think abou it - if you waste absolutely no resources at all to get an extra 50k damage or whatever the KMOB KMFS difference is, why wouldn't you?

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