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  1. #41
    Check weak auras all in one thread

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    Check weak auras all in one thread
    Couldnt find it there, used Search in this thread, i must be blind.

  3. #43
    Don't watch your swing timer. Delaying use of oblit or FS for killing machine is not a DPS gain. Ignore killing machine entirely. Every sim agrees with this, and quite a lot of work has been done to support it.

    If anyone has actual proof that delaying your swing to use KM on oblit/fs "properly" is a DPS gain, please do post it. Note that your rank on worldoflogs or your log of 30 minutes attacking a training dummy is not proof. I realize that "it just makes sense" and that ignoring KM is totally unintuitive. It feels wrong. That's not proof either.

    Until then, please stop posting misinformation.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Don't watch your swing timer. Delaying use of oblit or FS for killing machine is not a DPS gain. Ignore killing machine entirely. Every sim agrees with this, and quite a lot of work has been done to support it.

    If anyone has actual proof that delaying your swing to use KM on oblit/fs "properly" is a DPS gain, please do post it. Note that your rank on worldoflogs or your log of 30 minutes attacking a training dummy is not proof. I realize that "it just makes sense" and that ignoring KM is totally unintuitive. It feels wrong. That's not proof either.

    Until then, please stop posting misinformation.
    Delaying KM IS a DPS gain only if the following conditions are met:

    a) Delaying your Obliterate will not force you to become Rune Capped i.e. Any of your rune pairs go to full
    b) You can use up that GCD with another ability i.e. HoW, Symbiosis


    In general I find it better to just spam buttons more often and maxamise your GCDs and CD usage rather than keeping a close eye on your swing timer.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Don't watch your swing timer. Delaying use of oblit or FS for killing machine is not a DPS gain. Ignore killing machine entirely. Every sim agrees with this, and quite a lot of work has been done to support it.

    If anyone has actual proof that delaying your swing to use KM on oblit/fs "properly" is a DPS gain, please do post it. Note that your rank on worldoflogs or your log of 30 minutes attacking a training dummy is not proof. I realize that "it just makes sense" and that ignoring KM is totally unintuitive. It feels wrong. That's not proof either.

    Until then, please stop posting misinformation.
    Except that common sense and to an extent worldoflogs ranks support it. It certainly is a DPS gain in some cases in practice anyway completely regardless of what a simulator in a simulated environment may say. An example of such a case is when you're not going to waste resources in doing so.
    Vereesa of Paragon, formerly of Depraved
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    Delaying KM IS a DPS gain only if the following conditions are met:

    a) Delaying your Obliterate will not force you to become Rune Capped i.e. Any of your rune pairs go to full
    b) You can use up that GCD with another ability i.e. HoW, Symbiosis
    Theoretically, maybe. It certainly feels like it should work that way-- hence Verseesa's appeal to "common sense". Ignoring KM is completely unintuitive. Obliterate hits much harder, of course you should wait to spend KM on obliterate, right? But no... wrong. Even the sims are unable to do it and generate a DPS gain. Thus it is probably impossible.

    Prove me wrong-- load up simcraft and try to make it work. When it doesn't, look at what simcraft is actually doing (you can get that output too) and find out where it's doing the wrong thing or behaving differently than the actual game, or generate a different profile that generates a significant gain. If you can find a bug, the devs will fix it, and you'll be a hero. If you can generate a better profile, you'll help everybody.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-11-19 at 10:43 PM.

  7. #47
    Well, the funny thing is, what is counter intuitive is not using every GCD on an ability and waiting. Frankly Frost just has too many procs with Rime and KM. The free Death Coil in Unholy is much easier and less confusing than what Frost Has. They should really just simplify this crap for the specs by saying:

    If your are DW your next FS will crit when KM procs and it stacks to 2 to avoid overwriting.
    If you are 2h your next Obl will crit, when KM procs, and it stacks to 2 to avoid overwriting.

    In this way we wouldn't even need to see the damn proc and it wouldn't affect our rotation or our GCD usage that every other DPS/Good player is trained to do anyway...Keep the Rime proc for flavor...

  8. #48
    Some of us enjoy having to actually pay attention to what we are doing when we play frost.

  9. #49
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    You basically wait 1 or 2 GCD, not more. In that time I really doubt you can do more damage than a OB crit.
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  10. #50
    I don't see how one could ignore the glaring logic behind "if it will not cause you to waste resources, or miss out on a use of any ability to wait, then wait" to get the guaranteed crit on Obliterate rather than Frost Strike.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    I don't see how one could ignore the glaring logic behind "if it will not cause you to waste resources, or miss out on a use of any ability to wait, then wait" to get the guaranteed crit on Obliterate rather than Frost Strike.
    Because time itself can be a resource. Not all of time is, though.

    If it were that big of a gain as you all believe it to be, then even approaching perfect behavior in a sim would show itself in some capacity. It doesn't. That's not to say the sims are infallible, but when you're sitting there watching what it does and it does it correctly, and it still doesn't show itself, that's pretty convincing.

    What you see is that the KM FS/KM OB ratio barely shifts and that you lose damage, which is restored by the gain in damage from the small shift in KM FS/KM OB ratio. You have to do quite a bit of forcing to get the KM FS/KM OB ratio to actually change dramatically, and that quite a bit of forcing leads to a DPS loss, and even more so when you let that power sit in the hands of a player.

  12. #52
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    does this mean i might stop accidently wasting killing machine procs on frost strike? happens to me too often, i press frost strike, then killing machine pops up, but frost strike has already eaten it.
    Too cool for a signature

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by rap87 View Post
    If your are DW your next FS will crit when KM procs and it stacks to 2 to avoid overwriting.
    If you are 2h your next Obl will crit, when KM procs, and it stacks to 2 to avoid overwriting.

    In this way we wouldn't even need to see the damn proc and it wouldn't affect our rotation or our GCD usage that every other DPS/Good player is trained to do anyway...Keep the Rime proc for flavor...
    Please make this change Blizzard. No other DPS spec has a proc as clunky as KM.

  14. #54
    So you want to make the spec boring and mundane and lower the skill cap even further?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    Because time itself can be a resource. Not all of time is, though.

    If it were that big of a gain as you all believe it to be, then even approaching perfect behavior in a sim would show itself in some capacity. It doesn't. That's not to say the sims are infallible, but when you're sitting there watching what it does and it does it correctly, and it still doesn't show itself, that's pretty convincing.

    What you see is that the KM FS/KM OB ratio barely shifts and that you lose damage, which is restored by the gain in damage from the small shift in KM FS/KM OB ratio. You have to do quite a bit of forcing to get the KM FS/KM OB ratio to actually change dramatically, and that quite a bit of forcing leads to a DPS loss, and even more so when you let that power sit in the hands of a player.

    I understand that, I just see the logic, and it makes sense to me, idk.

    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    does this mean i might stop accidently wasting killing machine procs on frost strike? happens to me too often, i press frost strike, then killing machine pops up, but frost strike has already eaten it.
    That's the idea.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    happens to me too often, i press frost strike, then killing machine pops up, but frost strike has already eaten it.
    Get a swing timer addon.

  17. #57
    You seem to be missing the point. There's no reason to get a swing timer addon, because delaying your attacks is not a DPS gain.

    If you insist on knowingly providing false information, I suppose there's no way to stop you. It's a shame, though.

  18. #58
    To clarify my proposed change further, I don't view it as dumming down the spec.

    If I have to pick my camp, "I'm in the camp that says waiting is a DPS Loss". Time is a resources. I've seen KMs proc as DW within what seems 1 sec of each other. In practice it seems almost instant. Further most classes are told/practice to always be filling in your GCDs with something. You never want a deadzone of just auto-attacking unless you are "SPECIFICALLY" pooling resources for some important burn phase or add.

    Therefore, although some act as if waiting/swing timer is all complex and what not it is rather clunky and counter intuitive to be "holding" onto runes during a normal burn the boss no pooling required.

    Clunky does not equal complex. It's like dealing with a Fire Mage's ignite mechanic, the philosophy behind the class is to combine 3 big dots into 1 super dot. Having their small dot overwrite the big crits is annoying as fuck...not complex

    The Philosophy behind DW/2H is to balance it around big crits on either FS or Obl. We should be using runes and not capping runic power not dealing with clunky ass Delays and Multiple Procs. Especially when doing so conflicts with basic rules of good dps...always being hitting a damn button.

    In any case, going back to the situation we do have I will contend with all of the proponents above that there is no way your going to reliably and consistently wait and get a DPS increase over someone using their resources as they can whilst avoiding deadzones in a real world situation. If you see a KM and you have no Runes Available but some Runic Power...use the FS, you most likely will get another FS pretty damn soon and will have the runes...otherwise you most likely blew a KM cause you waited.

    Now if you feel you like, imo, the clunky ass nature of 2h as it is, I'm not one to be a Reductionist and force you to play my way. At least playing DW vs 2h allows one to get away from this wait crap I think is ludicrous. So, in the end perhaps we can enjoy what we like but disagree on what we like. So I'm all for flavor and different/complexities and style I just find this not complex but clunky....my main argument for the class right now however is to balance Unholy another diff playstyle that isn't viable atm due to DPS.
    Last edited by rap87; 2012-11-20 at 06:31 AM.

  19. #59
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You seem to be missing the point. There's no reason to get a swing timer addon, because delaying your attacks is not a DPS gain.

    If you insist on knowingly providing false information, I suppose there's no way to stop you. It's a shame, though.
    Go on. Let's say you have sometimes to wait 1 second in order to not waste KM on FS. Why waiting 1 second is a dps loss? I remember you that RE is not guaranteed and sometimes you have nothing more to do than waiting or casting HoW anyway. If you are resource capped I agree with you but otherwise I have some doubts.

    A bit further. What about waiting 2 seconds? This is more complicated but we can try to get a point.
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  20. #60
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    In my opinion, due to the current nature of 2H Frost, waiting for 1-2 secs for OB is not a dps loss, especially if u watch your swing timer, which isn't that hard. Up until last week, I never waited for an OB, I was just ignoring KM procs, and I ended up doing almost the same crits on OB and FS. This led to an enormous downtime for a melee dps class, that I couldn't accept, so I tried monitoring the swing timer for KM OB to see if I can manage better my resources and not spending them as they came available. And I think I did. I have less downtime now, and specifically I do more OB crits. Also I would like to add that you dont have to wait all the swing time to decide which ability to use, on my onw setup with the provided latency, I figured out that KM procs between 200-400ms of the swing, so I m confident to use FS after that point without losing a KM proc. Hopefully I wil be able to test it in the coming reset to justify my conclusions from the last few days testing.

    I forgot to mention that I dont know if this will still works on high levels of haste. Currently I have 5900 rating, which is pretty low for frost 2h and leads to the downtime I mentioned earlier. Propably on high levels of haste, the 'waiting' may lead to a gcd lock.

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