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  1. #21
    I said it was the most pressing for frost mages.
    Certainly not any frost mages I know (including myself). It was barely a blip on the qol radar compared to the 90 talents, general elemental AI problems, and dragging frost pve dps numbers as the tier progresses.

    And not to add more fuel to the fire, but it's true, the only mage that i ever saw consistently advocating for a change to the water elemental's ability was lhivera, lol. I can certainly see where zomgdps is coming from, he's very passionate about the mage class and his posts reflect as much, if maybe a little harsher than needed. It's just built up frustration from the utter lack of attention the devs give to the rest of mage problems (arcane, 90 talents). Don't get banned again, zomg! there is truth in your posts, just try and inform people rather than accuse/attack
    Last edited by Ellsian; 2012-11-15 at 03:24 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    You probably didn't even read what I just said. I said it was the most pressing for frost mages. Last time I checked, frost mages did not equal all mages.
    And that is exactly my point! Frost mages aren't all mages, but they are acting like they are and whats worse, Blizzard is treating them like they are.

    If the WE pet issue is so effing important to Frost mages, why do you feel justified in demanding all development time from the devs in fixing your problems over the issues of the entire class?? Why should Frost mage issues be bumped to the top of the list when Arcane isn't even working on a basic level and while the level 90 talents affect the entire class?

    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    But please, help the spec that hasn't been the Top PvE spec in the history of WoW first. (besides when bosses were fire immune in vanilla, lawl).
    And this is why.
    The good 'ol sense of Frost Mage entitlement.

    This is exactly what Lhivera thinks as well. That just because you guys weren't PvE gods in the past, that means that now that you are, your issues, no matter how minor, must be served before everyone else, even at the expense of other specs in your own class that are broken.

    This is exactly why Lhivera (and by now, obviously you as well), feel perfectly fine in ensuring that the Arcane spec never gets fixed, because you are too focused on making sure the devs only work on Frost problems.

    Obviously, you will never mention or even admit that while you weren't PvE gods, you were, for the entire history of the mage class, the only viable PvP spec. But now? Even though Arcane sucks in both PvE and PvP, you ignore the "help the spec thats not been viable" argument that you yourself are making.


    Double standards incorporated. You reak of Lhivera worship.


    Infracted.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2012-11-15 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Infraction
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  3. #23
    Mages have had some of the smoothest rotations and intuitive ways to play their class for quite some time now consistantly across the board, allowing of course for any patch which pushed Arc / Fire / Frost to the forefront of end game pve damage by any considerable margin. Given that it's early days of the expac and the gaps between classes aren't near as bad as what I first thought they may, I am still disappointed as I always am when something that required skill is removed or not implemented.
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  4. #24
    zomgDPS you have no way of knowing how Blizzard are splitting their development time. You seem to assume that this is the only mage issue being worked on right now but I don't really see how you can possibly know that. I think you need to calm down slightly over such a minor issue.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by warok View Post
    where are all these mages who like frost? all i see is firemages... cause u know it does better on all this tier's fights
    That's why people wanted to see a buff to frost. Just because they are playing fire doesn't mean they want to play fire.

  6. #26
    Zomgdps what you dont seem to understand is that we're not mad that we dont get a new water elemental ability - We're mad that they chose to put in the time to create one, we were happy with it, and then they took it away for absolutely no reason except that they 'werent happy with it'.

    Arcane is broken for the same reasons frost is, its just a little bit more broken. (edit: I want to emphasize here that frost -and arcane- are pve viable, the problem is that fire is more viable on every fight.)

    "Frost mage entitlement" has nothing to do with it. 'wanting an enjoyable, skillfull spec to be as progression-viable as a near-skillless, not enjoyable spec' is a lot more accurate.


    There are lots of possibilities for changing the mage l90 talents but blizzard hasnt said a word about them. I dont see what's wrong with rallying for a spec fix instead. l90 talents arent fun, but they are working as intended. Specs being nonviable is *not* working as intended.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-15 at 09:57 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Blizzard has just spent an entire major patch cycle trying to fix a stupid ability of a pet. They focused their entire efforts on testing and tweaking this ability. Fuck me, you cannot be serious when you say they haven't prioritized this over everything else. FFS, they reverted the Invoc change without even testing it but spent the entire 5.1 PTR testing and analyzing the fucking water elemental pet ability.
    [citation needed]
    How much more proof do you need that the entire design effort from blizz right now is on fixing this stupid pet ability solely because Lhivera has made it into the biggest issue right now. How can you not see that they are willfully ignoring all other mage class issues for this??
    Well, any proof at all would be nice. So far, all we have is unfounded accusations.

  8. #28
    Yeah this is totally the only mage change that has been made during the PTR of 5.1, well done.

  9. #29
    I'd rather have them create boring on-use pet ability called 'just grant me FoF now' sharing cooldown with freeze instead of complicating it with how water jet worked.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Avezo View Post
    I'd rather have them create boring on-use pet ability called 'just grant me FoF now' sharing cooldown with freeze instead of complicating it with how water jet worked.
    I disagree entirely, more interaction is always good. Static buttons that just give you things are boring.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    I don't see why people are so eager for Frost to be good in PvE; they sound like the same people who wanted Prot Warriors to be ridiculously good in PvP which they are, compared to Prot Paladins who are essentially a comedy show and a free kill all in one, but fortunately have not gotten their way to that extent yet.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    I don't see why people are so eager for Frost to be good in PvE; they sound like the same people who wanted Prot Warriors to be ridiculously good in PvP which they are, compared to Prot Paladins who are essentially a comedy show and a free kill all in one, but fortunately have not gotten their way to that extent yet.
    It'll be good in PvE regardless, or at least just about as good as it is now.
    All this was is a quality of life change. It would math out as a tiny increase in DPS but not one worth writing home about.

  13. #33
    I dropped my mage because frost wasn't that viable for PvE (rather, I never leveled him), and I'm sure there's a lot of mages who'd love to PvE as frost.
    Focusing on an invisible issue is never a bad thing. Invisible because, well, these mages (or players like me who dropped the class) feel like they should play something else.

    Now I haven't seen any recent frost logs so I can't talk about how far behind they are, but arguing that "no one cares" is just ignorant, and is based on the simple fact that people are drawn to what's considered the most viable.
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  14. #34
    Frost is currently competitive and totally viable, doing far more damage than Arcane.
    Fire does more damage again than Frost and is more suited to the mechanics of several of the encounters but there's a healthy number of people who play it anyway, and Frost has its own niches as well.

  15. #35
    Arcane is an interesting spec history-wise, it has never really evolved it's own niche. It started to evolve once they implemented things like arcane charges and arcane barrage, but for whatever reason this was toned down in Cataclysm, when only arcane barrage could spend the charges, and not arcane missiles.. I found this odd.

    But what do arcane need? Hard to tell
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  16. #36
    You mean now?
    To be competitive now Arcane needs more tools to deal with movement, it's not a complicated question.

    On paper Arcane's fine and deals equivalent damage to the other specs, its rotation is fairly interesting and requires some thought.
    In practice, Arcane would be punished much harder for moving than the other two specs as its only baseline instant spell will reduce the damage that you deal once you stop moving again. On top of that, it is far more rotationally dependent on the level 90 talents than either of the other classes because they effect its mana regeneration, two of which also heavily penalise anything that isn't standing still (and the third is completely ineffective for damage due to its mana return only functioning in a limited number of encounters).

    If Arcane is to function correctly it needs mana to be decoupled from the level 90 talents completely, and also ideally some added means of dealing damage on fights that require consistent movement other than "spam scorch".
    The fact that mana is dictated by the level 90 talents doesn't actually cause any interesting change in gameplay for the spec and the fact that the talents grant a damage "bonus" is an enticing enough reward that people will still use them, it doesn't need to be more important for one spec than the other two.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    I dropped my mage because frost wasn't that viable for PvE (rather, I never leveled him), and I'm sure there's a lot of mages who'd love to PvE as frost.
    Focusing on an invisible issue is never a bad thing. Invisible because, well, these mages (or players like me who dropped the class) feel like they should play something else.

    Now I haven't seen any recent frost logs so I can't talk about how far behind they are, but arguing that "no one cares" is just ignorant, and is based on the simple fact that people are drawn to what's considered the most viable.
    Well Frost is very viable, just fire does more. I raid as frost when I play my mage and am consistently competitive. I've even come extremely close our other mage who is fire. With mages now you really can play the spec you want, but all the top logs are going to be fire because the mages that are trying to squeeze the most DPS out of their toon possible are going to be fire.

  18. #38
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    thats not true, however much we want it to be true its not, fire is more viable and the solution does not lie in make fire less vialbe so that the other specs can "catch up" , the scaling for frost has to be fixed and add a better interaction with mastery. zomgDPS ur temper always gets the better of you , but dont be discouraged its that kind of passion that drives change, though you need to be more civil , arcanes issues that i can currently think of,

    Movement
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    Unable for spec to function properly because of the RNG for Missiles, some rng is good , for high/low damage , not for making spec work at all

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Frost is currently competitive and totally viable, doing far more damage than Arcane.
    Fire does more damage again than Frost and is more suited to the mechanics of several of the encounters but there's a healthy number of people who play it anyway, and Frost has its own niches as well.
    With all due respect, please stop telling fairy tales! Frost is okay, but not competitive! Compared to Fire, Frost is a world away from beeing competitive.

  20. #40
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    Hum, did you see the bug fix of Icy veins Glyph in the 5.1 patch notes?

    Personally, I just have obtain 5k+ haste and I have switched to IV glyph. IN the result, my dps have drop by 5k/10k. So I will will to haste IV cap and reforge to crit until 5.1.
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