Everything in the dungeon should be shared by everyone. Mining, Skinning and herbalism are the only things that arent.
NO ONE would have the chance to DE the item if EVERYONE wasnt there to kill the mob. Sounds fair to share the mats.
NO ONE would have a chance at the Ore or Herb node if EVERYONE wasnt there to help get to it. Sounds fair to share the mats.
NO ONE would have a chance at the skins unless EVERYONE was there to help kill the animal. Sounds fair to share the mats.
The money is always shared, the XP is even driven by the players to some point. Everyone contributes something and no one should have an advantage over another.
I dont mind if they remove it from BoE items, as long as it stays on BoP items. Most people have an enchanter these days anyways so its not like 'you' are being screwed by someone else, as when you jump on your alt your get the mats from their skill etc .
Disenchanting in dungeons really does not stop people making easy gold from enchanting anyway so why remove it at all.
Comparing to other skills, as has been said heaps, without a miner/skinner or herbalist that item would not be obtained by anyone at all, with multiple miners etc usually people get screwed out by the person who beelines for it anyway, so many times on my DK tank who is a miner I miss out on the mines because a dps goes and grabs it while im fighting the mobs next to it, or my healer who has skinning/herbs misses out because im topping people up while someone else goes a grabs it etc. My enchanters miss out on nothing I wouldnt otherwise get in said dungeon.
Yes, I agree with removing the DE button on rolls, but in turn I would also want disenchanting removed from enchanting and make it as it's own gathering profession.
Given the way other gathering/manufacturing professions work, I wonder why it wasn't like this from the outset.
Originally Posted by Ion Hazzikostas
LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR.
So Hardcore elitest raiders trying to get LFR removed are in fact essentially trying to kill off their own content!
I have to say I disagree with comparing people being able to de loot with people being able to mine/ gather herbs. Disenchanting is not the the primary part to the enchanting profession, it a secondary part. So you would be comparing disenchanting to smelting and you would not compare it to herblism at all since that has no secondary part.
That being said how many mining nodes or herbs are in dungeons/ raid now?
I am really surpised this topic has dragged on. I am agahst at how many of you refuse to even think the op has a point no matter how whiney. As for those saying remove it as part of their profession then deing has always been integral to enchanting since the very beginnings of wow. Who the hell would want a profession just involving deing? Enchanting remains one of the most expensive and pains to level.
That said i agree with the posts in the big scheme of things it doesnt matter as people soon stop running heroics and an enchanter on the ah des many more times mats than mere heroics.
I also agree with the posters saying its a good thing becayse it adds to the efficiencies of heroics.
many here do think he has a point. but we dont agree with it cause its a stupid ass point.
the effects of having shared DE in dungeons is negligible and irrelevant and opposing it is insipid, selfish and vain. It's like chopping down an apple tree growing on the edge of your land just because others get to pick the fruit.
Complete BS. In fact, the enchanter is the only profession that still has an advantage over others. It's the only profession where you can roll need on pieces of gear for the sole purpose of disenchanting them - even at the expense of someone who would actually need and equip the item.
On the other hand, no one is taking anything away from you. It doesn't change anything that someone can click on "disenchant". Before the system was in place, you were rolling against people and it's not any different from how it is now. The only difference is that non-enchanters would win a green item (that they could disenchant themselves with an alt or let a friend do it), and now they can actually win the mats directly. That doesn't take anything away from the enchanter and there's no extra effort involved for them.
Just another short-sighted, unreasonable and self-entitled non-issue complaint.
I couldn't find any threads about this topic, so I wanted to get others feed back on this.
Enchanting is the only profession that is basically forced to give up part of its ability. What I mean by this is the disenchant option on loot, and I think blizzard should remove it or add the other professions to the loot system.
Example: If I'm grouped with someone that is a miner, skinner or herbalist, and they mine, skin or pick an herb, a window doesn't pop up giving me the option to roll on what they got. So why should everyone have the option to disenchant their BoP gear with my profession that I leveled up. If I want herbs, skins or ore, I have to either level the needed profession for it or buy it from the auction house. So why should enchanters give up enchanting mats. No one else has to give up their mats.
Am I alone in my thoughts on this? Please keep your comments civil =)
I do see ur point but thinking like that is just greedy and selfish :P
I don't mind the DE'ing for party members. More items in the economy means cheaper price off the AH for me to purchase and make scrolls. I make my gold off Quantity of scrolls sold, not because I can charge an arm and a leg for them and have a monopoly on mats.
However. I WOULD enjoy a little boost via the crit mechanic. How about when we DE peoples loot in dungeons, we get a small chance to crit that DE and get double the mats - the extra going into our bag, regardless of who won the roll? This would provide incentive to those of us with the profession, while not overly flooding the market with extra mats beyond what is already there. (Similar to the guild perk, except it would work in dungeons and only give the mats to the enchanter performing the DE. Obviously if there are 2 enchanters, it would be random on who gets the DE roll, and then go from there.)
When a miner mines, they get ore and make what?
When a skinner skins, they get skin and make what?
When a herbalist, uh, pulls that flower, they get a flower, and make what?
When an enchanter disenchants, they get mats, and make.... holy crap, look at all the stuff they can make.
The enchanter is a profession that allows you to create your own mats from something you can actually go out and farm yourself without having to compete with anyone else. And if you choose to do it in a dungeon, you still have a fair chance of some come back. Unlike the other three that could on a bad day go out farming and come back with nothing.
Perhaps if your ability to enchant stuff was taken from you, then what you say would be fair. Would you like that?
This is not true in the case of miners. The only profession that needs raw ore is jewel crafting (I guess it can be used in some specific patterns by other crafters, but these are, in the case they do exist, extremely rare). However, both blacksmiths and engineers could buy all the ore in the world from the miners and they wouldn't be able to do shit with it. Somehow, this fact is always omitted in threads like these whenever an argument like yours is used.
Also, when you go out to farm items to disenchant, you aren't fighting with your inner demons for them. You fight with mobs. And... holy crap, there are more people after the mobs than there will ever be after herbs or mining nodes. Especially in Mists of Dailydaria, where every zone is subject to dailies, so even the people who are done leveling still go out to kill mobs. And in the case of beast mobs you also have skinners competing with you on top of that.
And to say that skinners, miners and herbalists can have a bad day and come out with nothing, but at the same time implying that enchanters have a fair chance of some mats gain is... interesting. Are enchanters incapable of having bad luck? Not to mention the LFD/LFR queue acting as a downtime, that the other mentioned professions don't have to deal with. If you are trying to get enchanting mats through LFD/LFR you have your competition next to you, able to roll on the items the moment they drop. But gathering competitors are rarely next to each other. And none of them can be omnipresent.
Another argument similar to yours is that enchanting deserves special treatment, because it is both crafting and gathering profession. If disenchanting is gathering, then so is milling and prospecting. Of course both milling and prospecting make mats usable only by, respectively, inscription and jewel crafting, but it's not like mats from disenchanting are of any use for anyone else than enchanters themselves.
Of course the difference is that inscription and JC still rely on another gathering professions. But enchanters on the other hand rely on luck (it's not like world mobs drop disenchantable items left and right), group or crafting professions. So it's only "self sustaining" only from the perspective on not requiring other professions (and even that depends).
Originally Posted by krethos
When you are a Miner, you have to go mine and spend time doing it YOURSELF
When you are a Herbalist, you have to go herb and spend time doing it YOURSELF
When you are a Skinner, you can skin in groups or by yourself, but the Leather does not need to be shared due to the fact if you weren't there it wouldn't have been skinned.
Whereas the case with Enchanting, if you weren't there you would have still been able to roll greed on an Item and just Sold it for gold.
When you are an Enchanter, and you are in a group with other people, THEY also helped you kill whatever it is that dropped the Item that was to be Disenchanted. Thus are entitled to a shot at getting the D/e'd Item regardless if they are enchanters or not, just as you were entitled to get that piece of gear if your character could actually use it.
People that do not understand this concept make me sad.
When you are a miner, mining ore INSIDE the instance, you wouldn't be doing so if you weren't with other people. THEY helped you get to the ore vein.Trash and bosses before that ore vein don't kill themselves.
When you are a herbalist, picking up herbs INSIDE the instance, you wouldn't be doing so if you weren't with other people. THEY helped you get to that herb Trash and bosses before that herb don't kill themselves.
When you are a skinner, skinning animals INSIDE the instance, you wouldn't be doing so if you weren't with other people. THEY helped you get that animal down. Trash and bosses that can be skinned don't kill themselves.
Whereas the case with disenchantable mats, if you don't have an enchanter in the group, you can't disenchant the items that drops right on the spot. In the case of greens and some blues you can get them to an enchanter afterwards or send them to your alt with enchanting. But in case of most blues and epics, without an enchanter in the group, you can't do anything other than selling the items.
So, if you can't disenchant a bop item or get it disenchanted by someone else after looting it, in what way are you ENTITLED to having it disenchanted by an enchanter in your group? Because you helped him kill whatever it is that dropped the item? Oh, did you also help him level his enchanting?
Your argumentation makes me sad. Now you are no longer alone in your sorrow.
Originally Posted by Kisho
Yes, there are still enchanting materials. They just haven't been disenchanted yet; the greens and blues still exist, still dropped.
Except in the case of blues (and epics), most of the time they aren't "mats that haven't been disenchanted yet" if you aren't an enchanter. Because last time I checked most of dungeon/raid blues/epics were BoP. And last time I checked you couldn't disenchant BoP items through "will not be traded" box of trade window. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Originally Posted by Endus
The key here is that none of the mats are "your" mats, unless YOU won the roll for the item. If you hadn't, the item would be the OTHER guy's. So they're his mats. If he doesn't have Disenchanting, he'd probably vendor the BoPs, but they're still his, not yours.
As you said, without an enchanter, it's just an item. Other guy's item, but still not his mats. Greens that can be traded and be brought to friendly/alt enchanter anyway? Sure, make them disenchantable. But BoP blues and epics that are as good as vendor trash if you can't disenchant them yourself (and you don't need them either, otherwise you wouldn't disenchant them in the first place). Why are they disenchantable by everybody? Can herbalists who gather something inside an instance (aside from whether or not should they be subjects to rolls) use alchemy of another team member to craft themselves some flasks?
Edit: I'm not really for or against the existence of LFD/LFR disenchant option. I'm merely commenting on the flaws of the arguments from the die-hard pro-disenchant crowd.
And @OP. If you really, REALLY don't want to disenchant stuff for others, don't take enchanting rod with you when you go to LFD/LFR. From what I recall from another thread like this, it disables the option. And how can they know you are enchanter if there's no DE option present? Sure, there are ring enchants, but how likely is that someone will pay attention to that? And what can they do if they find out? Plus, you could always pretend that you left the rod in bank by accident, or because you needed bag space.
Last edited by Mehrunes; 2012-11-20 at 05:32 PM.
Originally Posted by TinyScout
I suggest we remove mounts, and instead opt to use a similar system. Because of the cataclysm, every single character starts out with a broken spine, and so is completely paralyzed from the waist down. This means you need to get by with only your arms for movement, reducing movement speed by 90% of normal running speed. At 60, you can pay a fee of 5000 gold for a bitchin' Drek'thar brand wheelchair, increasing your speed to 50% of normal speed.
If the enchanter doesn't win the roll...why does it matter that someone can get an enchanting mat?
If I hit DE and win the roll, the enchanter has to do NOTHING! There is not enchanting window that pops up and says "hit this button to disenchant the item for player X." Hell If the enchanter wins the DE roll they don't even have to disenchant the item.
I wish my JC/miner could instantly prospect the ore he gathers. That would save me so much time.
Lets say the button goes away. Enchanters now have the EXACT same chance to get get mats as they did before. But because there is now less mats in the market, Enchanters have to actually go out and farm like the rest of us. Or pay the overpriced AH prices and then try to sell overpriced enchants that people will just get for free from their guild.
With the exception of BoP drops, I would still disenchant every item even if I won them through greed rolls. Disenchant is the same thing as Greed. The item is still going to drop, people are still going to roll on it, and you will still have no guarantees to you your precious shard unless you're an asshole and roll need for that. All this option does is allow people to choose whether they get a few pieces of gold or a shard. Stop being so damn greedy just because you can't roll on a miner's mats and they can convert an item they could win through greed in an enchanting material.
For a miner (this goes for herbalism and skinning as well) to grab his materials, he has to occupy a profession slot, just for mere gathering. An enchanter gets a two in one deal. You can enchant your equipment, sell enchants, AND get your enchanting materials for your enchants, or sell them, all for one profession slot.
Again: you are not losing a shard. You are not giving up mats. You aren't losing anything at all that you wouldn't have lost without this roll option. You would have still lost the item, and thus the material. The only difference would have been that instead of an enchanting material, the other person would have gained an item to throw into a vendor. The disenchant roll option is fine, for the moment. If you're so adamant on having equality between gathering professions, I'm sure you would be ok with making Disenchant a gathering profession, split from Enchanting.
Last edited by Adramalech; 2012-11-20 at 06:39 PM.
Originally Posted by Tya
As a warlock, allow me to be the first to say that I get tremendous amounts of joy from watching fear pathing take you to Africa.
Originally Posted by Drayarr
Twinking is like going back to school when you are 30, just to be smarter than the other kids.
see I never got this as if a enchanter is the only person who is allowed to get enchanting mats from the junk that drops shouldn't this mean that all cloth that drops should be split between the tailors and no one else?
disenchanting isn't a profession it's just a perk, it's basically prospecting without the need for a miner, so if anything it should just be put to a generic skill.
but as said above greed everything boe's go to my enchanter bop goes to the vendor, so really what difference does it make the enchanter they still have to roll against 4 other people in LFD.