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  1. #221
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Tweet from GC:
    @Ghostcrawler I can understand the silence.totem nerf for resto shammies. It hurts the other specs though. Is there another way?

    Tweet: If it comes to that, we'd rather give Ele and Enhance a survival cooldown to use when silenced.

  2. #222
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Tweet from GC:
    @Ghostcrawler I can understand the silence.totem nerf for resto shammies. It hurts the other specs though. Is there another way?

    Tweet: If it comes to that, we'd rather give Ele and Enhance a survival cooldown to use when silenced.
    I've said it multiple times before; Blizzard is generally pretty cautious about major changes like this. There's too ways to go about making major balance adjustments; cautiously, or proactively. Proactive is better if they get it right, but more often than not, something gets overlooked in the process; you're making Change A that you've determined you need, and Compensations B and C that napkin theorymath says might compensate, but B and C are guesswork. If it works out, great, but if it doesn't, you either get people furious that B and C aren't nearly enough, or that B and C are more OP than A ever was and you actually made things worse.

    Blizzard, right or wrong, goes more cautiously. They make Change A, then sit back to see what the effects are across the board. Then, after they have THAT data, they build Changes B and C targeted directly at the actual data they have to base them on. It's generally a more secure and reliable process, but it's slower.

    I don't have any issue with the speed. GC admitting that there could be issues with Ele/Enh as a result of these Resto-targeted changes, and saying they'd rather add a new survival tool to make up their shortfall than revert the change, is a step in the right direction.

  3. #223
    High Overlord Windech's Avatar
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    I can't stress how broken this feels after doing a few arenas. It doesnt feel deserved at all...

  4. #224
    Brewmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Honestly, it has to be because of Resto. Resto's the only spec performing above-average in PvP which would warrant a nerf.
    I actually find it somewhat surprising that they're basing a class-wide nerf on one spec's performance in PvP, solely for the reason that they don't appear to generally try to balance anything around PvP. It's a peripheral concern, they generally seem only concerned with PvE performance and PvP be damned.

    Well, now, they're concerned with PvP performance, and PvP performance be bloody well damned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Keynesian theory.

  5. #225
    The Patient
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    Last bg Astral Shift was usable while silenced. Bug or intended? I can't test it further atm, so any help would be appreciated.

  6. #226
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenSayNyu View Post
    Last bg Astral Shift was usable while silenced. Bug or intended? I can't test it further atm, so any help would be appreciated.
    Silence effects were bugged and not working properly, it should be hotfixed already if your realm's been restarted.

  7. #227
    I still don't like the changes to totems, but since they are happy with the changes it doesn't look like this will be reverted. I'm fine if Blizzard wants silences to be extremely strong verses casters, but they need to balance it around this and not act like silences don't do much. I admit most of the problem comes from how much burst is in the game now, but a silence + stun shouldn't be a death sentence.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesftw View Post
    welcome to increased skillcap, now you have to learn how to deal with silences/ position better like all other healers had to do , enjoy your stay ^^
    Welcome to the world of shamans, where your most important skills (totems) can be destroyed by a gentle fart.

  9. #229
    if they really should make totems silence able, i would think giving em more health would be fair, as off now stuff just onehit em and we have to wait ages to make a new

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitentolis View Post
    if they really should make totems silence able, i would think giving em more health would be fair, as off now stuff just onehit em and we have to wait ages to make a new
    No, no and no. The difficulty of shamans right now isn't an isolated problem, it's PvP wide. Damage is far, far too high.

    Mostly, because blizzard was stupid. They nerfed healing, and increased DPS. Combined with pervasive CC, this is what you get.

    Problems.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    No, no and no. The difficulty of shamans right now isn't an isolated problem, it's PvP wide. Damage is far, far too high.

    Mostly, because blizzard was stupid. They nerfed healing, and increased DPS. Combined with pervasive CC, this is what you get.

    Problems.
    I also think this.

    While an extra defensive cd may be nice. GC is going into the wrong direction. pvp power on weapons increased etc.
    ppl get 100->0% even faster in a DF>FB or shockwave. PvP has been dumber down to cd stacking and global fest.
    ppl were complaining it's not fun to not be able to do sth because of too many cc, too much damage...

    So GC adds more burst and less CC protection. Ppl full conquest gear are around 55% pvp power, have fun gearing up in bg's .

    I think GC is long passed the perishable date.
    Patch is still young, but i expect a lot of hate towards GC in the next few weeks, the man made PvP more imbalanced and made the extremes further apart.
    Everyone feels it's been dumbed down.

    I see you give them credit still Endus, well I think blizzard is still professional, but GC isn't with his twitter account, I see ignorance and arrogance and then some fanbois that come and kiss his ass and treat him like some kind of demi god. Everyone was cheering on shaman totem nerf, but now they see in which direction the game goes and no one likes how stupid it became and became a case of having the right class popping cd's...

    I've unsubbed due to this, the totem nerf was the drop, but 5.0->5.1 transition makes it pretty clear in which direction pvp goes.
    I don't like it, he can buff me, make me FOTM, idc i dont like FPS games...

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I've said it multiple times before; Blizzard is generally pretty cautious about major changes like this. There's too ways to go about making major balance adjustments; cautiously, or proactively. Proactive is better if they get it right, but more often than not, something gets overlooked in the process; you're making Change A that you've determined you need, and Compensations B and C that napkin theorymath says might compensate, but B and C are guesswork. If it works out, great, but if it doesn't, you either get people furious that B and C aren't nearly enough, or that B and C are more OP than A ever was and you actually made things worse.

    Blizzard, right or wrong, goes more cautiously. They make Change A, then sit back to see what the effects are across the board. Then, after they have THAT data, they build Changes B and C targeted directly at the actual data they have to base them on. It's generally a more secure and reliable process, but it's slower.

    I don't have any issue with the speed. GC admitting that there could be issues with Ele/Enh as a result of these Resto-targeted changes, and saying they'd rather add a new survival tool to make up their shortfall than revert the change, is a step in the right direction.
    The problem I have with this is why just give a nerf... waiting to see how it changes and then ... 2-3 patches later, give something to compensate for the loss.

    Do they do intern testing? Like... test and see how it works out with every specs before ever putting something across a class? These CC's.. do they even know? Did they even know it was going to be terrible? The more the game progresses in time, the more it gets away from balanced because it feels like they do not test anything at all and do not read their feedbacks correctly. If they do not know how to change things, they should just stop putting more and more things to break more things.

  13. #233
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taoforums View Post
    The problem I have with this is why just give a nerf... waiting to see how it changes and then ... 2-3 patches later, give something to compensate for the loss.

    Do they do intern testing? Like... test and see how it works out with every specs before ever putting something across a class?
    Internal testing isn't a replacement for seeing how it flies on live servers. Internal testing is usually more about "does this literally break the game somehow", not "is this perfectly balanced"; they need at least PTR-level testing to get a start on that.

    The more the game progresses in time, the more it gets away from balanced because it feels like they do not test anything at all and do not read their feedbacks correctly. If they do not know how to change things, they should just stop putting more and more things to break more things.
    That's simply not true. Shaman are in general in one of the best places they've ever been today, even with this totem change. Elemental is lagging in PvP, but it HAS been worse. Enhancement is doing really well in PvE, and decently okay in PvP, while Resto is strong in both.

    The game as a whole is more balanced today than it used to be in TBC and particularly Vanilla. In general, it's trending to greater balance all the time. There will be certain changes that will throw things out of whack now and then, and I agree this is one of those, but that doesn't change the overall trend.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The game as a whole is more balanced today than it used to be in TBC
    Can't really agree with this, at least not PvP post 5.1

  15. #235
    The change in my opinion was unnecessary and an obvious "balance" to hold back Restoration in PvP. It does seem common that when Resto starts booming ahead in the PvP scene that the target isn't just the spec itself, but the class as a whole.

    Honestly I think with this nerf totems should finally have more health.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Internal testing isn't a replacement for seeing how it flies on live servers. Internal testing is usually more about "does this literally break the game somehow", not "is this perfectly balanced"; they need at least PTR-level testing to get a start on that.



    That's simply not true. Shaman are in general in one of the best places they've ever been today, even with this totem change. Elemental is lagging in PvP, but it HAS been worse. Enhancement is doing really well in PvE, and decently okay in PvP, while Resto is strong in both.

    The game as a whole is more balanced today than it used to be in TBC and particularly Vanilla. In general, it's trending to greater balance all the time. There will be certain changes that will throw things out of whack now and then, and I agree this is one of those, but that doesn't change the overall trend.
    When a class is performing poorly and they proceed to give it significant nerfs it only displays a poorly ran development team.

    Now the waiting game begins. The inspired hope " Elemental could probably benefit from another survivability cooldown. Elemental Mastery doesn’t fit that niche as well as we’d like, since you need it for offense as well". That predates 4.3. Now it's, "If it comes to that, we'd rather give Ele and Enhance a survival cooldown to use when silenced".

    Point being they have known about this issue for awhile now yet nothing has been done.

    I know you think defensive ability's have been stripped from other classes (which I 100%disagree with) but we are now worse than we were during Cata. Poor defenses, moderate damage, control now is god awful. The 3 fundamental blocks that dictate a good pvp spec. We excel at none and drown by more.

  17. #237
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dospal View Post
    When a class is performing poorly and they proceed to give it significant nerfs it only displays a poorly ran development team.
    That wasn't what happened.

    A spec was performing too well, so they proceeded to give it nerfs, and those nerfs affected other specs in that same class that they may have to compensate for after determining what the effect is.

    Now the waiting game begins. The inspired hope " Elemental could probably benefit from another survivability cooldown. Elemental Mastery doesn’t fit that niche as well as we’d like, since you need it for offense as well". That predates 4.3. Now it's, "If it comes to that, we'd rather give Ele and Enhance a survival cooldown to use when silenced". Point being they have known about this issue for awhile now yet nothing has been done.
    That is, to be blunt, a lie. So egregious an untruth that I cannot imagine it was an accident. They added a survival tier to our talents specifically to address this exact complaint. They added the exact survivability cooldown they referenced in that pre-4.3 comment, and now they're debating adding a second survivability cooldown to the spec.

    You cannot construe that as them ignoring us or doing nothing. Not without either ignoring the MoP changes, or lying about them.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A spec was performing too well, so they proceeded to give it nerfs, and those nerfs affected other specs in that same class that they may have to compensate for after determining what the effect is.
    Determine the effect? Lol. If you make totems, which are almost a shamans' entire utility toolkit, unusable while silenced, you make a shaman useless while silenced. To reach that conclusion that shamans will become free-kills, you dont have to implement it. Common sense allows to predict the outcome.
    Totems are the most iconic shaman mechanic and were underperforming compared to other utility cooldowns before the nerf. Anyone knowing the least about shamans knows that and doesn't nerf them any further, but buffs them instead. And look what they did?

    Blizz got tons of negative feedback and ignored it. Doesn't sound like "We're going to wait and see how it pans out.". It comes off more like "What? There were people who actually pvped as enh/ele? Cant design the class around them as well, they're a minority anyways".
    GC's famous "Enh doesn't get silenced anyway, Ele...maybe?" coment is all you need to know that they haven't given it any real thought and they are to proud to admit that this change was a brain fart.

    There's not a single grain of balance in this. Totems were easy to replace and usable while silenced to balance out them being destructable/5hp, immobile and locking each other out. Both aspects are gone and no compensation. There's no way you can defend this in any way, even less with "classes are different", since it is about totems, and they are supposed to be special. It is the "totems are worse in every aspect" story all over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That wasn't what happened.

    A spec was performing too well, so they proceeded to give it nerfs, and those nerfs affected other specs in that same class that they may have to compensate for after determining what the effect is.
    Yeah, sure.

    You know, maybe you would be more convincing if this wasnt like 5th time in last two years you defend blizzard on nerfing all shaman specs due to resto pvp with possible future tuning if some spec underperforms, which never really happens.

    Or if every class was almost every time nerfed across the board and then underperforming specs brought up instead of the other way.

    I just realized your post makes no sense in any context.

    If they wanna balance resto in pvp, they need to have a hard look at resto mastery design, its just broken in pvp and everything else is being nerfed because of it.
    Last edited by Sarevokcz; 2012-12-01 at 10:42 PM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That is, to be blunt, a lie. So egregious an untruth that I cannot imagine it was an accident. They added a survival tier to our talents specifically to address this exact complaint. They added the exact survivability cooldown they referenced in that pre-4.3 comment, and now they're debating adding a second survivability cooldown to the spec.
    "Elemental could probably benefit from another survivability cooldown. Elemental Mastery doesn’t fit that niche as well as we’d like, since you need it for offense as well" - this comes from Q&A from 3/22/2011.

    Astral Shift in patch 5.0 was released on 8/28/2012. Adding survival cooldown took them 15 months.

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