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  1. #321
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Gc's last twitter gem:

    Guy1: Way to learn the shaman class Ghostcrawler. Silencing enhance blocks our interrupt and some major cd's!
    GC: yeah I know. But silencing an Enhance is like disarming a Mage. I'm sure it happens, but I dont see it often.
    Guy2: That's not a fair comparison, as mages can still use their abilities while disarmed, whereas enh can't.
    GC: the point is you're often better off spending a silence on a healer or a caster who is dependent on spells for 100%.

    this shows a lot imo ... unfortunately
    That's not a recent tweet, and he's mostly right, TBH. Enhancement isn't going to be your go-to choice of target for Silences, and they can't get interrupted for the most part. It's a bigger deal for Elemental and Resto than it is for Enhancement.

  2. #322
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't care if they decided that certain specs were "PvP specs" and some not.
    I've seen this mentioned quite a bit recently. What is interesting about it, is that myself and possibly others, were under the impression that the developers were already doing this. But if they were to make a concerted effort in that direction, it will be interesting to see if it has the effect they want. Whatever it is they end up doing, IF they end up changing the way they balance the game, its probably going to have to be fairly dramatic.

    I didn't watch the interview but I'm very interested in what I saw in the synopsis on the front page: 'Blizzard likes when the PvP and PvE part of the game operate the same, but is willing to make them work differently to make the game work better.'

    That's something we're not likely to see until the next expansion but ultimately it's something that I think would make the game easier to balance. I think there's a whole slew of other general things they need to look into, such as standardizing more abilities like they did with dispels and interrupts, and looking into shifting balance from arenas to RBGs. All of which, I'm sure, is controversial but I think some pretty big changes are needed to attain some semblance of balance. I wouldn't expect perfect balance but I think they could get it to the point where players are satisfied, if they're serious about making pve/pvp work differently. PvE and PvP players alike would probably literally rejoice if this happens; no more getting nerfed for aspects of the game you don't take part in.

    As for these statements,

    They just need to be open and up front about it
    It would be better if they either made a concerted effort to balance all 34 specs for PvP, or to publicly declare which specs are "PvP specs" that they're going to balance for that content. You can't go with middle ground like this.
    I couldn't agree more. There maybe needs to be more transparency. I mean, I could take it upon myself to look at the ladders, and determine from there which class/spec I should play. But every 3-4 months changes could be made that impact the viability of the class/spec I chose. Maybe they should explicitly communicate to us which specs they think are fine and which specs they're keeping an eye on from patch to patch; without too many specifics because players look at those as promises. I'd rather play the spec I want, and I probably will regardless, but at least I'd know where my spec(s) stands.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  3. #323
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I didn't watch the interview but I'm very interested in what I saw in the synopsis on the front page: 'Blizzard likes when the PvP and PvE part of the game operate the same, but is willing to make them work differently to make the game work better.'

    That's something we're not likely to see until the next expansion but ultimately it's something that I think would make the game easier to balance. I think there's a whole slew of other general things they need to look into, such as standardizing more abilities like they did with dispels and interrupts, and looking into shifting balance from arenas to RBGs. All of which, I'm sure, is controversial but I think some pretty big changes are needed to attain some semblance of balance. I wouldn't expect perfect balance but I think they could get it to the point where players are satisfied, if they're serious about making pve/pvp work differently. PvE and PvP players alike would probably literally rejoice if this happens; no more getting nerfed for aspects of the game you don't take part in.
    The issue with that is that, while it becomes "easier" to tune the classes separately, there's a lot of overlap. World PvP, for instance; are your abilities working as they do in PvP, or PvE? What happens if you're fighting a rare and somebody attacks you? If it's only changing effect by the target being hit, then things like mana costs and cast times and such have to stay the same.

    It also means that instead of trying to balance 34 specs for PvE and PvP, you're trying to balance 68 specs, half for PvE, half for PvP. I'm not convinced this is actually "easier" in the long run.



    My big issue with PvP in WoW is that they've made the game focus on control, burst, and healing. Sustained damage is meh compared to burst. Having burst WITHOUT control is usually crap at competitive levels. Having control without burst means you rely on your allies to succeed to a much greater degree. If the intent was that every spec should have one of those three, that would be fine, but there's plenty of specs with great control AND burst, and even good self-healing. Plus, "control" isn't a fun mechanic for the person targeted. I don't mind if it it's minor, but the name of the game right now is chain-CCing; you shut one player down while you kill them. This isn't "fun" for the target, because they have exceedingly limited ways to react. Poking your head out from a pillar and eating a Chaos Bolt and dying? That's 100% fine; you shouldn't have poked your head out when they were charging it up. Getting locked in one place while they kill you? Not fun, IMO. Look at games like League of Legends; for the most part, a player will have a single "control" ability, and it's typically on a long enough cooldown that it's not spammable, and there's little chain-CCing; if you and a partner each slap them with a CC, they're dead, but in a 2v1 against champs without CC, they're probably dead anyway. And they likely won't survive to need more than a couple CCs. Compare that to WoW, where a Rogue can chain stuns and disorients and such and keep you relatively inactive for a good 10-15 seconds, even with trinket use.

    I guess it boils down to speed. WoW's PvP pace feels torturous when you're targeted. They're taking their time to kill you and preventing you from defending yourself. It's the difference, to me, between someone slowly slipping a knife between your ribs while you're tied to a chair, or someone shooting you in the head. If I have to die, I'll take the latter, thanks. This is totally subjective, but it's the root of why I keep getting frustrated with WoW PvP. And bringing this little rant back on topic; this totem change negatively impacts on this for Shaman; it makes us easier to control and gives us less to do while being CCed to death. It already irritated me, and this makes it worse.

  4. #324
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The issue with that is that, while it becomes "easier" to tune the classes separately, there's a lot of overlap. World PvP, for instance; are your abilities working as they do in PvP, or PvE? What happens if you're fighting a rare and somebody attacks you? If it's only changing effect by the target being hit, then things like mana costs and cast times and such have to stay the same.

    It also means that instead of trying to balance 34 specs for PvE and PvP, you're trying to balance 68 specs, half for PvE, half for PvP. I'm not convinced this is actually "easier" in the long run.
    Depends on how they do it, I guess. Unfortunately, there's great potential to fuck it up, but what they're doing now isn't working. In my mind damage/healing priorities would stay relatively the same but cc would change, and not just for a few classes...across the board. I suppose they could just do that now since most of it seems to be geared towards pvp, most of the changes wouldn't impact pve. Maybe that's an issue too: damage and healing are balanced around raids, why isn't cc?

    And bringing this little rant back on topic; this totem change negatively impacts on this for Shaman; it makes us easier to control and gives us less to do while being CCed to death. It already irritated me, and this makes it worse.
    Irritated doesn't begin to describe my state when I think about this change, which is part of the reason why I unsubbed. In the meantime, I haven't touched my elemental and have been leveling an MM hunter on the recommendation of one of the posters here...so far it's been really fun. I'll just play the waiting game along with everyone else and see if we get anything to compensate.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  5. #325
    I think this latest set of blizz responses proves how out of touch they are. Totems WERE NOT too good. They were and still are very easy to destroy. It just seems to me that people were too lazy to target switch and moaned they were OP.

  6. #326
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Just now, I come out of a Temple of Kotmogu BG... There was a warrior who kept killing my totems before they could do much. He slapped my HST, my Earthbind, my Capacitator etc. It was actally rather fun to see how useless our totems are as soon as people are aware of their existence. It's a pity they're so weak, actually. Considering that I barely get to put any down anymore these days inbetween all the stuns and blanket silences.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    Just now, I come out of a Temple of Kotmogu BG... There was a warrior who kept killing my totems before they could do much. He slapped my HST, my Earthbind, my Capacitator etc. It was actally rather fun to see how useless our totems are as soon as people are aware of their existence. It's a pity they're so weak, actually. Considering that I barely get to put any down anymore these days inbetween all the stuns and blanket silences.
    i noticed exacly same thing on normal BGs meeles keep pounding my capacitor, from last week i got it hit something maybe 3 times im always blanked silenced and 90% of time im first target to nuke like having blue hp bar = easy kill,
    only good thing is im not plaing RBG and arenas from 2 weeks so im not that stresed anymore

  8. #328
    Pit Lord Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokor View Post
    I think this latest set of blizz responses proves how out of touch they are. Totems WERE NOT too good. They were and still are very easy to destroy. It just seems to me that people were too lazy to target switch and moaned they were OP.
    I agree.....the reply from GC that totems have more effects now other then buffs (which totems have ALWAYS had, and some were even stronger back in the day like cleansing), but are hard to counter so have been made spells and effected by silence/interrupts is total BS.......did they forget that totems can be killed with a simple instant attack, spell, or melee swing? Compared to a buff or debuff which can only be dispelled/purged by a select few classes or healers, totems can be killed by ANY class.......there are very few advantages that totems have to make them unique and different from a typical spell, being physical and not effected by silences/interrupts was one of the few remaining plus points that made totems feel useful and powerful and they have totally crippled it.

    This is a very rash and not well thought out nerf IMO, with some major repercussions in PVP. I am not happy with how they have nerfed totems without any real compensation, they should incorporate some base HP at the very least depending on their CD's so stuff like Stormlash Totem w/ it's 5min CD has atleast 10-15% HP and can't be one shot anymore. Totems still feel like a "work in progress" and not balanced at all IMO, they went under several major mechanic defining changes....losing advantages like short CD's, but not really a reduction in disadvantages and even gaining some disadvantages......with few choices for active defense tools to protect our totems and the totem talent tier is very lackluster IMO and considering this is our classes signature mechanic should have alot more baseline tools to make them easier to use and to protect them (Grounding totem not tied to air element and so able to drop before any other totem to protect it from being one shot would be an easy change and a big help).

  9. #329
    As soon as the nerf hit i became sad . As an elemental shaman we were already targeted first because we were easy to kill, and now its pretty much gg. However if you time you grounding well you can counter one silence, but in 3v3 I just get globalized so i quit arenas. Thankfully this doesn't effect pvp because i personally love my shaman and would not want to reroll.
    do what you feel.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    I agree.....the reply from GC that totems have more effects now other then buffs (which totems have ALWAYS had, and some were even stronger back in the day like cleansing), but are hard to counter so have been made spells and effected by silence/interrupts is total BS.......did they forget that totems can be killed with a simple instant attack, spell, or melee swing?
    I Agree that Resto Totems do more now than buffing.

    But Elemental totems were not suddenly OP with MoP.

    This whole totem System Change can be summed up with: "Buff Totem gone, Healing Stream reworked, new Capacitator totem and 2 new available through talents"

    The main point why Elemental were mad about this Change are Grounding and Earthbind, Healing Stream & Healing Tide.

    Grounding exists since Classic, CD got nerfed in Cata
    Earthbind exists since Classic, Elemental had a Root in Wotlk / Cata which needs to be talented now, CD Increase, Duration reduced, Tick frequency increased.

    So, when the Devs decided to give Shaman the ability to exclude Totems out of any Spell school, Earthbind and Grounding already existed.
    Capacitator is kinda moot at this point, if take into consideration that Tp is affected by Silence, so you can't use it vs Ranged while silenced and any Melee can destroy it easily anyway.
    Also, a lesser version from Capacitator existed at this point, Old Fire Nova Totem.

    Why are they too strong now? Why not just exclude Healing Totems instead of every Totem?

    If this nerf was merely targeted at Specalization totems (Spirit Link) and Healing Totems (Healing Stream / Healing tide) this nerf would never have hit Elemental that hard without making Elemental Defense totally different from previous expansions in terms of Totems.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-12-14 at 11:23 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


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  11. #331
    The Lightbringer
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    I think the totem nerf was a great change to resto shamans. Enhancement doesn't suffer a lot from this, and they are still the third best melee, and works in many different comps, and it is definitely a spec that is performing better than average. Ele on the other hand is pretty crap, and it doesn't bother me. I can count on more than one hand during season 1-12 where I thought to myself, "wow, surprise surprise, arcane mages, fire mages, balance druids, elemental shamans, destruction warlocks, demo locks and shadow priests are pretty shit this time around". Sure, all of the specs got their time in the spotlight (with the exception of arcane), but if you plan to play any of the beforehand mentioned specs consistently... Well, you will be feeling underpowered more often than not...

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's not a recent tweet, and he's mostly right, TBH. Enhancement isn't going to be your go-to choice of target for Silences, and they can't get interrupted for the most part. It's a bigger deal for Elemental and Resto than it is for Enhancement.
    well thats intresting theory but after plaing some arenas with rogue i must say there was been non beter silence targets around sadly and i get it all in my face constantly

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by kosajk View Post
    well thats intresting theory but after plaing some arenas with rogue i must say there was been non beter silence targets around sadly and i get it all in my face constantly
    ++++++++++++1

  14. #334
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    What if they turned totems into visual representations of our buffs? That's kind of how they work now but I'll explain.

    Currently, when we drop Stone Bulwark a green aura appears around us and in the upper right hand corner of our User Interface a magical buff appears. Similarly, when we drop Earthgrab, a magical debuff shows up on our opponent. I believe Capacitor shows a buff once the target is stunned but last I checked the stun was physical and so couldn't be dispelled. So for Stone Bulwark, depending on our opponents they have a few options to negate it: they can kill the totem or they can offensively dispel us, or they can do both.

    What if that was changed, so they could still offensively dispel the aura from SBT but they couldn't kill the actual totem. Similarly, Earthgrab/Earthbind debuff could be dispelled by healers, just like it can be now, but the totem itself couldn't be killed?

    They could have buff/debuffs that correspond to all of our totems just like SBT, EG, and Cap but make them work the same way. So you drop Healing Stream Totem, it puts a buff on the UI of whoever its healing, and that buff can be offensively dispelled but the totem can't be killed. Same goes with all the rest of the totems.

    It's not quite this black and white, they may have to change how long some of the totems last, and searing and magma may not need any special attention since they can be spammed. There's probably some other things they'd have to work out as well.

    But, for totems to be more like spells it means that people with dispels (offensive/defensive) should be the only ones that can negate them. Unless of course, they think since totems are all instant, that they should be negated by everyone and their mother, which its possible they think this.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-15 at 05:15 PM ----------

    Another idea to make totems more like spells, is to get rid of totemic projection. Instead, we all get something baseline and it could work like this: your partner is feared more than 30 yards away, you target him, use Tremor Totem, and the totem automatically lands at his feet. If you don't have anyone targeted or you have the enemy targeted, it lands at your feet. Basically totems become targetable spells just like...spells.
    Last edited by shell; 2012-12-16 at 01:19 AM.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The issue with that is that, while it becomes "easier" to tune the classes separately, there's a lot of overlap. World PvP, for instance; are your abilities working as they do in PvP, or PvE? What happens if you're fighting a rare and somebody attacks you? If it's only changing effect by the target being hit, then things like mana costs and cast times and such have to stay the same.
    They make abilities work different depending on the target, not the enviroment. Like Frost Bomb deals 20% less damage to players.

  16. #336
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enaina View Post
    They make abilities work different depending on the target, not the enviroment. Like Frost Bomb deals 20% less damage to players.
    Not always. See all the restrictions on certain cooldowns and abilities for Arenas, for instance, which they're adding (have added?) to RBGs as well. Clearly, those abilities have been deemed to be unbalanced for PvP, but they're still available in World PvP, theoretically giving certain specs and advantage as a result.

    They aren't 100% consistent on this, and it gets more squirrely when you start adding in utility effects, like abilities that stun if the target is a mob but not a player (to make up an example).

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not always. See all the restrictions on certain cooldowns and abilities for Arenas, for instance, which they're adding (have added?) to RBGs as well. Clearly, those abilities have been deemed to be unbalanced for PvP, but they're still available in World PvP, theoretically giving certain specs and advantage as a result.

    They aren't 100% consistent on this, and it gets more squirrely when you start adding in utility effects, like abilities that stun if the target is a mob but not a player (to make up an example).
    There is no restrictions on RBGs, you can heroism and lay on hands in it, stuff like that. Other restrictions are target dependent.
    I don't see the problem with your example in the last part of your post, only that it can be confusing. It's been in the game for a long time, just look at CC durations on mobs compared to players.

  18. #338
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enaina View Post
    There is no restrictions on RBGs, you can heroism and lay on hands in it, stuff like that.
    Originally Posted by 5.1 Patch Notes
    Rated Battlegrounds now share the same spell restrictions as Arenas.
    Source

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Originally Posted by 5.1 Patch Notes
    Rated Battlegrounds now share the same spell restrictions as Arenas.
    Source
    Oh I missed that. Well personally I don't mind no restrictions in the 'world'. I like the idea of everything goes (like foot, pots and flasks) because it doens't really matter anything.

  20. #340
    The fact that ele got hit so hard in the patch(totem nerf, hybrid healing, Lightning SHield ICD and u can no longer stun ppl through AMS and cloak) is just beyond me. Lost all faith in Blizz. For 5.2 they'll probably bring back the 20% less dmg taken while elemental mastery is active -.-

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