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  1. #61
    I don't even play Shaman anymore and still feel sorry for you guys, Shaman always ends up with the short end of the stick. =/

    Shaman doesn't need nerfs, they need buffs, with exception of the Restoration tree.

  2. #62
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    He's probably right with regards to Enhancement; they're not doing a lot of hard-casting and choosing them for a silence seems more of a "everyone else that casts anything is dead, may as well lock him down for lulz" kind of thing.
    They might not being doing it now but they will be if this goes live. Don't have to worry about enhance dropping capacitor, tremor, and other totems if they're blanketed. It's just opening up a whole new can of worms.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  3. #63
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Elemental, though, is arguably the MOST vulnerable caster to interrupts. Our main instants are on a shared 6s cooldown. Our main nuke and filler are both cast, and Elemental Blast is generally how a lot of PvP Ele are going, which ALSO has a huge cast (AND locks out everything if interrupted), because Unleashed Fury only boosts LB damage (the first thing we sacrifice for utility/healing/etc) unless we burn extra GCDs for utility (not really a great idea), and Primal Elementalist is only of any use for 2 minutes out of every 5; maybe okay for arenas, but not so much RBGs.
    Unless it's hidden humor/sarcasm from GC like back when he posted about SLT/stormlash, he is a complete clown with regards to ele shaman pvp when he claims stuff like that. And it's what I've been saying in the past: that it shouldn't be a surprise if the dev team has more feeling/affinity for spec A than for spec B (just like any average group of players you put together). Ever since I started playing wow (and ele shaman) patch notes have always looked great on paper for ele pvp, but they turned out to miss a couple of little things that mean the world in practise.

    I honestly lost complete faith with that tweet. He doesn't even attempt to cover up that he doesn't understand ele pvp.
    Last edited by zenga; 2012-11-16 at 09:45 PM.

  4. #64
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    I can't for the life of me find that blue response from ages ago, where they said the reason why they wouldn't increase totem health or remove the element restrictions was because it was balanced around the fact that we could use them while silenced. Or something like that.

    Anybody have that somewhere...?
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  5. #65
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    @shell GC - "We're fine with totem health given how easy totems are to replace. We also think it's fine to have to (sometimes) choose between a buff totem and a non-buff totem given how many different things a shaman can do."

    On topic: What the f with that tweet?... Guess it still "go resto if you want PvP" motto every patch >_<

  6. #66
    GC is a complete cretin - he has zero clue about the game for someone in his position.
    Xaenicael - Marauder - Legions of Lettow
    Xaenicael - Resto Shaman - Bronze Dragon Flight

  7. #67
    Fine with me, then paladins shouldnt be able to bubble while cc'd and mages shouldnt be able to ice block while cc'd. And while their at it, remove Denounce from the game.

  8. #68
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenSayNyu View Post
    On topic: What the f with that tweet?... Guess it still "go resto if you want PvP" motto every patch >_<
    It was probably more like;

    1> Realize there's a problem; resto can't be locked down effectively with interrupts/silences since totems aren't spells and can still be used, and there's multiple totems that can be used to heal.
    2> Knock around a few ideas, can't really lower straight HPS as that has PvE ramifications, changing other utility doesn't fix the issue, come to the conclusion that these totems are the issue, and it's only that they can be cast while silenced/interrupted
    3> Push change to PTR for testing
    4> Get feedback pointing out that it has implications for other specs
    5> Make a tweet saying "well, we don't think it's a big deal about Enh. But Elemental, yeah, hmmm."

    This is a massive game. The devs are only human. They WILL overlook things. Whether they overlook things isn't a big deal. It's how they respond when those oversights are pointed out. I don't have an issue with this change being pushed to the PTR; I think it's a bad change due to how it affects Enh/Ele, but that's what feedback is for. It's not like they don't do this kind of stuff with other classes. Look at the uproar over changing Druid shapeshifting to not break roots, a while back. A change that was reverted over feedback, I might add. This isn't a "let's piss on Shaman", this is normal human devs missing out on something, and now that it's been pointed out by the community, they'll have a chance to react.

    If they say "well, we don't care about Ele/Enh, they can deal", then I'll start oiling up a torch and sharpening my pitchfork. But right now? Now is the time for feedback, not "Blizz hates Shaman" QQ.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This affects our whole toolkit, class-wide, in ways that are ONLY relevant for PvP, and neither Enhancement nor Elemental were overpowered (especially Elemental) beforehand.

    Please, make your voices heard there. If you're going to contribute, though, please follow these guidelines;

    1> Don't be rude or abusive. This just makes people ignore what you're saying, regardless of how just your cause might be. It would just contribute to getting the thread shut down and ignored by the devs.

    2> Be clear and specific. Don't just post "OMG this is the worstest thing since hitler and stalin's demonbaby". Give hard, specific reasons why it's bad. It's much easier for them to see the validity to actual things than trying to judge whether you're spouting a ton of hyperbole.

    3> Suggest alternatives, if you can think of them. They do not make changes like this on a whim; the only reason I can see is that Resto is too strong even while silenced/interrupted. Accept that there's validity to that reason, and provide alternative solutions that don't hurt the rest of the class; just asking them to reverse it leaves them with a problem still to be addressed, so they're less likely to do so.
    This is like Druid shapeshifting removing roots nerf early cata all over again. Fundamental, class defining perk removed in middle of a season just like that. Outcry from Druids back then was huge, much bigger than what we see now from Shamans now, yet they still did it. Point is, I believe they made they mind about it and there is nothing we can do. Clueless tweets from Lead System Designer (sic!) are only conforming that.

    That change should be done in beta, with proper compensation. I honestly feel cheated, if I knew that Shamans would end like this, I'd have chose a different main.
    Last edited by Sznur; 2012-11-17 at 02:19 AM.

  10. #70
    Warchief Northy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenSayNyu View Post
    @shell GC - "We're fine with totem health given how easy totems are to replace. We also think it's fine to have to (sometimes) choose between a buff totem and a non-buff totem given how many different things a shaman can do."
    Ya it's really easy to replace totems when they have long arse cooldowns. Searing is the only one "easy" to replace.

  11. #71
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Ya it's really easy to replace totems when they have long arse cooldowns. Searing is the only one "easy" to replace.
    c'mon man, that's not true. we also have................................magma totem! LoL, just messin' with you.

    here's the latest twitter:

    Question: Enh is silenced a lot, rogue/mage burst. Enh cannot use Shamanistic rage while silenced... maybe fix SR?

    Ghostcrawler:We could consider SR while silenced. Some of those preventions are for balance reasons, but some are just arbitrary.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  12. #72
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Ya it's really easy to replace totems when they have long arse cooldowns. Searing is the only one "easy" to replace.
    Context is necessary; that comment was made in July 2010, shortly after Firelands was released, without the current iteration of totems. It was also reliant on the fact that we needed totems down for our buffs; the main focus of the post he was responding to was absolutely about the state of buff totems and how they compared to other class' raid buffs; http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...otem-overhaul/


    Basically, they already addressed the problem he said that in response to, by giving them 100y ranges and making them unkillable auras.


    This isn't to say the change here and now is "okay", but that specific quote's context doesn't apply, is my point.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfury View Post
    Exhibit A: http://www.mmo-champion.com/poll.php...do=showresults

    See the percentage? Watch it grow higher when this hits live
    rogue easier to kill than shaman....what? i mean that alone surely makes the poll pointless.

    if a rogue wants to...he can escape any situation with cloak vanish then sap or blind or gouge, then sprint away etc.

    if they changed the poll to

    Resto shaman
    Dps shaman

    i think dps shaman coulda had more votes than every other class in the game combined, even as a shaman i nuke other shamans first knowing how piss poor their survival is easy kills.

  14. #74
    would also be interesting how shamans voted what classes are easy to kill for them^^
    but we get ot^^

  15. #75
    Our biggest crutch in PVP has just been kicked out from under us. This is an absolutely ridiculous change.

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Context is necessary
    Part of the reason why I wanted that quote dug up, and since then I've been able to dig up other relevant quotes, is because now they've shifted our argument. It isn't about totems having additional health anymore. If this change goes through totems should be unkillable, except by two classes.

    Totems are spells, only mages and shamans can remove spells, so only mages and shamans can remove totems. Make them literally have to target the totem and use spellsteal and purge.

    Keep them at 5hp for nostalgia, but make it so that can't be destroyed since they're spells now.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  17. #77
    It's an absolutely ridiculous change. If they want to nerf resto then nerf resto, stop hitting every spec with blanket nerfs. It's just lazy. I'm not sure if GC's twitter post was just plain stupidity or trolling.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    Part of the reason why I wanted that quote dug up, and since then I've been able to dig up other relevant quotes, is because now they've shifted our argument. It isn't about totems having additional health anymore. If this change goes through totems should be unkillable, except by two classes.

    Totems are spells, only mages and shamans can remove spells, so only mages and shamans can remove totems. Make them literally have to target the totem and use spellsteal and purge.

    Keep them at 5hp for nostalgia, but make it so that can't be destroyed since they're spells now.
    I can guarantee you, they are never going to do that.
    This nerf is obviously a result of SLT saves, unless Blizzard states otherwise to justify the nerf.
    Enhancement gets silenced pretty often to disable Maelstorm Weapon and SR. You should be dead when you eat a blanket silence from Blizzard's point of view, that's the way I see it.

    All this: "I dropped someone to low health, silenced the shaman, he managed to pop SLT and fulled that person." QQ lead to this nerf. Totem stomping is hard without macros (sarcasm), everyone would complain a big time if totems were treated as spells.

    With this change however, totems get the drawbacks of a physical tool and spells, while gaining none. I'm pretty disappointed with GC's view on the issue, and yet they are avoiding to talk about it as much as possible.

    I was merely thinking "devs hate/ignore Shamans" as a joke, now a part of me started thinking it might be for real.

  19. #79
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It was probably more like;

    1> Realize there's a problem; resto can't be locked down effectively with interrupts/silences since totems aren't spells and can still be used, and there's multiple totems that can be used to heal.
    2> Knock around a few ideas, can't really lower straight HPS as that has PvE ramifications, changing other utility doesn't fix the issue, come to the conclusion that these totems are the issue, and it's only that they can be cast while silenced/interrupted
    3> Push change to PTR for testing
    4> Get feedback pointing out that it has implications for other specs
    5> Make a tweet saying "well, we don't think it's a big deal about Enh. But Elemental, yeah, hmmm."

    This is a massive game. The devs are only human. They WILL overlook things. Whether they overlook things isn't a big deal. It's how they respond when those oversights are pointed out. I don't have an issue with this change being pushed to the PTR; I think it's a bad change due to how it affects Enh/Ele, but that's what feedback is for. It's not like they don't do this kind of stuff with other classes. Look at the uproar over changing Druid shapeshifting to not break roots, a while back. A change that was reverted over feedback, I might add. This isn't a "let's piss on Shaman", this is normal human devs missing out on something, and now that it's been pointed out by the community, they'll have a chance to react.

    If they say "well, we don't care about Ele/Enh, they can deal", then I'll start oiling up a torch and sharpening my pitchfork. But right now? Now is the time for feedback, not "Blizz hates Shaman" QQ.
    I understand why they trying it, as currently resto very powerful healer, but... it seems resto spec will always remain viable both PvE and PvP while our DPS specs can (and will be if that change go live) suffer in PvP for months without adjustments.

  20. #80
    I don't get the need for this change, totems are not that great as it is and they are the only thing that keep me alive when on lockout (By alive I mean clinging onto a string alive) No matter how much I fake cast the enemy still has a form of silence and Mages fisher price'd counterspell silences that caster just in case they missed their interrupt...

    It seems like we will be too busy begging devs to give back physical totems to ask them for decent mobility, defensive CD's or utility.

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