Thread: [MW] Chi Wave

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Don't know about you, but my rolls heal. For a lot, actually. Also, since when do you stop being able to use Uplift while fistweaving?
    Explain this then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    And what are you doing while you're positioning yourself better? Not healing.

    And you can't Uplift nearly as much while fistweaving. Taking the time to move to different legs is time in which you're not using Jab, on top of all of the Chi spent on Serpent's Zeal (are you really doing 300k+ in auto attacks in 20 seconds? That doesn't even happen on Wind Lord with a constant 100% damage buff without movement, the difference there being the lack of constant damage that makes Uplift so good on Garalon). I also don't use Chi Torpedo because Xuen gets a damage boost that I don't have to roll around to get. I get the appeal of a damage boost, I fistweave on most fights that have them, but sometimes you have to take a step back and think about what's really best and not just go with "damage boost = OMGFISTWEAVE." However, judging by your use of Chi Torpedo, defense of Chi Wave, and insistence on fistweaving on Garalon, I'd have to say that critical thinking isn't really your thing.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And you can't Uplift nearly as much while fistweaving.
    Are you serious? I really am not sure. You realise jab has a 1 second GCD, so you can build up enough chi to uplift within two seconds? Every two seconds? And if you seriously think moving to another leg is a problem - in that time you still can use your saved chi or reapply RM - simply hit the body.
    Just like every melee you simply move with the target, there is no difference between Wind Lord or the Stone Guards.

    And back to chi wave, when you take a look at the WoL, you will notice for heroic 10 man, for the top 16/20 monks chi wave does more than 20% of their healing. In heroic 25 man, not a singe monk uses chi wave in the top 20.
    So obviously there is a huge difference in it's use, and I guess the amount of people who really do progress in 10 man and 25 man simultaneously with one class are pretty small, so just because something doesn't work for you or your raid size or your raid composition doesn't mean it is bad for others.

  3. #43
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And you can't Uplift nearly as much while fistweaving. Taking the time to move to different legs is time in which you're not using Jab, on top of all of the Chi spent on Serpent's Zeal (are you really doing 300k+ in auto attacks in 20 seconds? That doesn't even happen on Wind Lord with a constant 100% damage buff without movement, the difference there being the lack of constant damage that makes Uplift so good on Garalon). I also don't use Chi Torpedo because Xuen gets a damage boost that I don't have to roll around to get. I get the appeal of a damage boost, I fistweave on most fights that have them, but sometimes you have to take a step back and think about what's really best and not just go with "damage boost = OMGFISTWEAVE." However, judging by your use of Chi Torpedo, defense of Chi Wave, and insistence on fistweaving on Garalon, I'd have to say that critical thinking isn't really your thing.
    Serpent's Zeal is 30 seconds, not 20 seconds. Glancing at a Garalon kill I had the other day, I did ~8800 white DPS over the course of the fight, which would be ~260k damage over 30 seconds. Add in another ~45k healing done by the Blackout Kick and that's about 305k healing over 30 seconds for the 2 chi on BoK (assuming you are keeping SZ rolling). Uplift on ~10 peopls is ~310k healing per the numbers I quoted earlier in the thread. Obviously, you aren't refreshing at exactly 30 seconds and the cost of the initial 1 stack of SZ gets amortized over the SZ healing for the entire fight (depending on how well you keep the buff rolling), but it doesn't compare that poorly to Uplift on 10 targets.

    So Serpent's Zeal is probably behind pure Uplift, but the raid's health is rarely static--there are periods where the raid is mostly topped off, where you can stack or refresh Serpent's Zeal. Then when the raid's health dips again (i.e. as Pungency stacks get higher), you are doing additional healing while cranking out the Uplifts. I wouldn't hesitate to let SZ drop, however, if I needed to do heavier burst healing via additional Uplifts, however.

    Also, there's no need to lose any jabs while moving to the legs. You can stay in range of the main body 100% of the time and only swap to the legs once you're within the dotted circle. Losing jab time while moving to the legs just means you need more practice staying in melee.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Explain this then:
    Two different kinds of movements. Moving from one leg to another is almost the exact distance of a Roll. Moving to the optimal point for a Chi Burst could be a lot of different places, requiring different types of movement to accomplish correctly.

    Not all movement is the same.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 09:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    So Serpent's Zeal is probably behind pure Uplift, but the raid's health is rarely static--there are periods where the raid is mostly topped off, where you can stack or refresh Serpent's Zeal. Then when the raid's health dips again (i.e. as Pungency stacks get higher), you are doing additional healing while cranking out the Uplifts. I wouldn't hesitate to let SZ drop, however, if I needed to do heavier burst healing via additional Uplifts, however.
    This is the most fundamental point. The hard part about healing is providing the right heal at the right time. Sure, if all of your raid is all taking damage, Uplift is fantastic. But even if you have RM on 10 targets, if only four of them are actually taking damage then Uplift isn't nearly as effective. To just blanket say "you shouldn't use Serpent's Zeal because you should spend the chi on Uplift" ignores the dynamic nature of healing that separates the good healers from the bad ones.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Two different kinds of movements. Moving from one leg to another is almost the exact distance of a Roll. Moving to the optimal point for a Chi Burst could be a lot of different places, requiring different types of movement to accomplish correctly.

    Not all movement is the same.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 09:44 AM ----------



    This is the most fundamental point. The hard part about healing is providing the right heal at the right time. Sure, if all of your raid is all taking damage, Uplift is fantastic. But even if you have RM on 10 targets, if only four of them are actually taking damage then Uplift isn't nearly as effective. To just blanket say "you shouldn't use Serpent's Zeal because you should spend the chi on Uplift" ignores the dynamic nature of healing that separates the good healers from the bad ones.
    I think you are ignoring the fundamental difference between 10 and 25 man raiding. There just is never a point where only 4 people are hurt in a 25 man. You're better off with single target heals at that point as you have 5 or 6 healers.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by rmlunsford View Post
    I think you are ignoring the fundamental difference between 10 and 25 man raiding. There just is never a point where only 4 people are hurt in a 25 man. You're better off with single target heals at that point as you have 5 or 6 healers.
    There's also less of a likelihood that the people who are hurt are going to be the ones with your Renewing Mist on them.

    Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that 10m and 25m are different, but my point is that the decision may not be so clear cut as people would like to believe. I realize that people want to identify the "best" way and latch on to it now, but monk healing is still really new and completely unlike any other healing mechanic that's ever been in the game. I'm only advocating for keeping possibilities open, rather than closing the book on the theorycrafting and asserting that we have The Answer.

  7. #47
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmlunsford View Post
    I think you are ignoring the fundamental difference between 10 and 25 man raiding. There just is never a point where only 4 people are hurt in a 25 man. You're better off with single target heals at that point as you have 5 or 6 healers.
    Feng would like to have a word with you. Outside of the spike raid healing phases, Feng is tank + 3 random targets hit by his shadow bolts... which is exactly 4 people.

    Elegon phase 1, 5 random people get hit by the add's debuff/nuke. (unlikely that all 5 of them have ReM, especially after 5.1, which will make SZ even more attractive compared to Uplift). Normal Will, 2 tanks + random bads getting hit by stuff. Various parts of spirit kings have only a few people taking damage if you're doing it properly. Windlord has a few people with wind slash debuff + tank.

    Really, 4-5 random people taking damage + the tank is very common in 25s.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Feng would like to have a word with you. Outside of the spike raid healing phases, Feng is tank + 3 random targets hit by his shadow bolts... which is exactly 4 people.

    Elegon phase 1, 5 random people get hit by the add's debuff/nuke. (unlikely that all 5 of them have ReM, especially after 5.1, which will make SZ even more attractive compared to Uplift). Normal Will, 2 tanks + random bads getting hit by stuff. Various parts of spirit kings have only a few people taking damage if you're doing it properly. Windlord has a few people with wind slash debuff + tank.

    Really, 4-5 random people taking damage + the tank is very common in 25s.
    I'm sorry I didn't elaborate. My point is that a heal which does 11k per hit ain't gonna cut it with that damage.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    This is the most fundamental point. The hard part about healing is providing the right heal at the right time. Sure, if all of your raid is all taking damage, Uplift is fantastic. But even if you have RM on 10 targets, if only four of them are actually taking damage then Uplift isn't nearly as effective. To just blanket say "you shouldn't use Serpent's Zeal because you should spend the chi on Uplift" ignores the dynamic nature of healing that separates the good healers from the bad ones.
    You do realize that everyone takes damage at the exact same rate on Garalon, right?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You do realize that everyone takes damage at the exact same rate on Garalon, right?
    So, I make a point that conditions vary based on fight to fight, and that you shouldn't make a blanket "this is always better" assessment, and you respond by citing one fight as evidence?

  11. #51
    Mechagnome
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    I've been using Chi Wave more often in 10 and 10H's, i take into account of how stacked the group will be (When it comes to deciding between Chi Wave/Burst). I use Chi Wave most of the time due to it being a smart heal.

    I can't really say what is better.. I was using Chi Burst like a fiend back when I started raiding with my monk, but personally I prefer Chi Wave now. Once the glyph comes out for it to increase its travel speed I think it will be more popular than it is now.

  12. #52
    I find the need to be in close proximity to really make it effective causes it to be more of a melee/tank type of choice over a healer one. CB is much better imho.
    "If you want to control people, if you want to feed them a pack of lies and dominate them, keep them ignorant. For me, literacy means freedom." - LaVar Burton.

  13. #53
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You do realize that everyone takes damage at the exact same rate on Garalon, right?
    Yeah, but your fellow healers aren't necessarily healing them at the same rate. There are occasional lulls in the serious healing.

  14. #54
    I use Chi Wave on a number of fights on 25 man even, things like attenuation are great for chi wave since it's a smart heal and can hit for 100k+

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    So, I make a point that conditions vary based on fight to fight, and that you shouldn't make a blanket "this is always better" assessment, and you respond by citing one fight as evidence?
    I was always talking about Garalon. I specifically said that Uplift will outperform Serpent's Zeal on Garalon because the smart healing aspect is practically null and void on a fight where everyone takes the same damage at the same rate. On a purely numbers basis, Uplift drastically outheals Serpent's Zeal for 30 seconds. With a double output boost to Serpent's Zeal, the numbers come closer to even with the difference that Serpent's Zeal is over the next 30 seconds whereas Uplift heals everyone at that moment. I never said that you should never use Serpent's Zeal, it definitely has its place. What I said is that you shouldn't use Serpent's Zeal on Garalon and the post you quoted was also specifically talking about Garalon. No one mentioned anything about different fights, not even you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    I use Chi Wave on a number of fights on 25 man even, things like attenuation are great for chi wave since it's a smart heal and can hit for 100k+
    And this is just being ignorant. So what if it hits for 100k+? Any other class can stop and cast their quick heal and hit that number without wasting a talent that is incredibly useful. Monks are bad at emergency single-target healing right now, get over it. Don't glue a screwdriver head to a hammer when you could just get a screwdriver and a hammer, learn to be a part of the toolbox instead of trying to do everything yourself.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2012-11-18 at 12:17 AM.

  16. #56
    As mentionned, the pick is between chi burst and chi wave. In 25m, chi burst does more total healing when people are well grouped than uplift (unless it has 12-16 targets) which is why you will notice it much much more often in 25m.

    Now onto the topic.
    The first reason why you won't see chi wave as top healing spell is because it has a CD.
    The second reason is because MW role is often if not to say always raid healing since we'll we're broken strong at it yet kinda blow at tank healing.
    Why Chi Wave is still an awesome spell, as pointed above kind of is that it provides good burst healing especially on heavy tank damage or whenever dmg is taken by targets near the boss. It's downside is its awful travel time if you are actually at range for whatever reason.

    It's an outstanding spell and has many strong niches but you will never see it as the main chi dump because of its cd.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 07:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rmlunsford View Post
    Is there any chance I could get one of ya'll stellar mistweavers to take a look at these logs? I really need some help in making this mistweaver not heal 50k. I'm looking at other 25 mans and being under 100k looks like you are doing it wrong, let alone being at 50k. Our mistweaver sat at 50k for majority of that fight. I don't have garalon specific log uploaded yet, but there are problems with her healing in every fight.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=9080&e=9600
    I'm only running 10m and 2 healing did 102k and 96k respective hps on our 2 kills (ilvl around 483-486 between the 2 kills). Regardless though I was toying with 25m healing this afternoon and kept 86k hps in lfr where the actual damage on raid is often not sufficient enough and a lot of my uplifts go into overheal.


    It is very hard to judge what he does wrong on Garalon without appropriate logs but...

    Assuming your raid stacks ranged in an almost static position from which he can SCK spam to generate Chi your monk should
    1. Reforge full haste for higher chi gen and sck hps.
    2. Consider removing glyph of uplift to have his prime 8 targets to be melee such that SCK and Uplift don't overlap into overhealing (although even if he runs with it eventually melee would turn out to be lower health and he can pick them all up from intelligent spread on ReM)
    3. Never SoM, SM or EM. Leave it to the designated tank healer(s) to spot heal low players.

    If he has good awareness and not enough mana regen for a SCK spam rotation(or if you don't have set ranged positionning to optimize SCK spam), have him jab boss and run a rotation similar to
    ReM-Jab-Uplift-Jab-Jab-Uplift-Jab-Jab-Uplift
    It's sub optimal for 25m while being roughly even in 10m but tends to be a bit less mana consuming.


    I hate to say this but if you have confidence in the other healers, Garalon is the biggest no brainer encounter to heal for a MW...ReM on CD, spam optimal chi gen and uplift period. use chi brew shortly after TFT for optimal TFT burst hps.

    You should also make sure he specs outside Chi Torpedo. SCK will do just as much and grant a chi. It's too GCD costful to really be worthwhile. RJW or even xuen will do better.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 07:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Chi Burst is useful, yes, but it's largely duplicative with Uplift. Things that you want to be doing with Chi Burst you can also do with Uplift.

    Chi Wave gives me a new tool. Chi Burst gives me slightly different version of a tool I already have.
    Chi Burst, unlike Uplift, doesn't have a target cap and thus scales significantly better than uplift with mastery procs in 25m. The issue with Chi Wave as a tank heal is you can do the same with EM and again save T2 talent for something generally better.

    I'm definitely not as hater as totaltotemic. Then again I only run 10m but while I find Chi Wave to have a few useful niches in 10m, I really can't think of any case where I would run Chi Wave over Chi Burst. As a matter of fact, I would rather run glyph of uplift+chi burst when positionning allows for reliable chi bursts than use uplift for the aoe niche and have Chi Wave.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 08:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Don't know about you, but my rolls heal. For a lot, actually. Also, since when do you stop being able to use Uplift while fistweaving?
    I've been differentiating Fistweaving(or Meleeweaving) from Jabweaving in a couple posts and I firmly believe people really need to start using a similar pattern or at least define what they mean by fistweaving.

    Totaltotemic was CLEARLY refering to fistweaving as pure fistweaving. Uplift with fistweaving is what I refer to as Jabweaving - Where really all of your damage is auto-attack + Jab (possibly just keeping 2 stacks up on certain encounters but not on Garalon) where the main reason why you melee is to generate chi faster than with any other mean. The particular issue is that should positionning allow in 25m, SCK spam is better than jabweaving whenever there is somewhat consistent raid-wide dmg.

    Thus fistweaving is indeed suboptimal. Jabweaving is very competitive, in fact its very often "the way to go" in 10m because it's more efficient than SCK spam and well SCK spam can force painful positionning to the raid. I did 95-105k hps on our 10m Garalons almost purely "Jab Weaving" but the lack of scaling of the healing from jab in 25m makes it so the same rotation does right about the same hps in 25m whereas I would turn around 115-120k hps with similar execution of SCK spam in my state of gear and whatnot for 25m.

    With that said, your rolls might heal for a lot in your logs, but it is mostly the issue that it is hard to fully compare to the other 2 choices with just logs. Sadly, the fact that it uses one GCD per 15 seconds, alongside with kinda fucking your positionning up unless it's used in pairs, puts it very far behind the other choices for the tier. Assume every 3 rolls you would've done, instead, 2 SCKs + 1 Uplift and then consider wether those 3 rolls would really have beat the healing from this and you'll find out it's really lackluster. The comparison isn't so great since SCK costs more than a 1.0s gcd but you see the point. Don't just look at the % of your healing that was provided by it as you can't truly read up what % of your healing came from RJW or Xuen. It's mostly an illusion that Chi Torpedo is good. It's never the optimal choice for the tier unless you struggle on mana.
    Last edited by Deau; 2012-11-18 at 07:59 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And this is just being ignorant. So what if it hits for 100k+? Any other class can stop and cast their quick heal and hit that number without wasting a talent that is incredibly useful. Monks are bad at emergency single-target healing right now, get over it. Don't glue a screwdriver head to a hammer when you could just get a screwdriver and a hammer, learn to be a part of the toolbox instead of trying to do everything yourself.
    So your answer to "ignorance" is to dismiss anything that you think is wrong and not even admit that there is more than one way to do something?

    Nice, I guess it really is bliss.

  18. #58
    The Patient Jake5467's Avatar
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    Further proof of the usefulness of Chi Wave. Here's the logs from Heroic Elegon 10 man tonight.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13126&e=13611

    I love that ability. I know I had a low usage of TFT on that fight, was focusing more on the single target healing.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And this is just being ignorant. So what if it hits for 100k+? Any other class can stop and cast their quick heal and hit that number without wasting a talent that is incredibly useful. Monks are bad at emergency single-target healing right now, get over it. Don't glue a screwdriver head to a hammer when you could just get a screwdriver and a hammer, learn to be a part of the toolbox instead of trying to do everything yourself.
    Ignorance is using your toolbox properly? Chi Burst and ZS severely under performs on some fights and it's usually where there is high movement and lots of spreading. Imperial Vizier is one of them, Sha of Fear is another and Chi Wave does excellently on both of them because it is a smart, strong, instant and cheap single target heal. It's also useful on fights with heavy spike damage, for example it does a great job on Gara'jal with topping up voodoo dolls. Simply put mate if you're not using it you're a bad monk and a bad healer with an obsession for numbers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 01:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I was always talking about Garalon. I specifically said that Uplift will outperform Serpent's Zeal on Garalon because the smart healing aspect is practically null and void on a fight where everyone takes the same damage at the same rate. On a purely numbers basis, Uplift drastically outheals Serpent's Zeal for 30 seconds. With a double output boost to Serpent's Zeal, the numbers come closer to even with the difference that Serpent's Zeal is over the next 30 seconds whereas Uplift heals everyone at that moment. I never said that you should never use Serpent's Zeal, it definitely has its place. What I said is that you shouldn't use Serpent's Zeal on Garalon and the post you quoted was also specifically talking about Garalon. No one mentioned anything about different fights, not even you.
    I'm sorry but this is so wrong, you should really look into the class mechanics a little more as it's painfully obvious you haven't experimented at all. Eminence comes in two components, there is the innate 50% NON auto attack damage provided by Stance of the Wise Serpent and then there is Serpent's Zeal which AoE heals everyone around you for 50% of your auto attack damage. Our statue doubles up these effects so when fully buffed we AE heal everyone around us for 100% of our auto attack damage and our NON auto attack damage smart heals people for 100% of itself as well.

    You'll need a little more than anecdotal evidence to tell me that 30 seconds of auto attacking replicated on 25 people as healing is less than two uplifts.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    instant and cheap single target heal.
    2 Chi is anything but cheap. That places it among our most expensive heals, and comparing it to other heals that cost the same resource is most definitely a valid comparison. It is also not instant. There is significant travel time for Chi Wave if the person is not standing in melee range of an enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    You'll need a little more than anecdotal evidence to tell me that 30 seconds of auto attacking replicated on 25 people as healing is less than two uplifts.
    It's not anecdotal, it's math. Uplift will do more per spellpower than twice as much as 30 seconds of Serpent's Zeal, assuming no overhealing. You also do not heal everyone around you with Eminence, it only heals one target for each heal, that's just false.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2012-11-19 at 04:23 AM.

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