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  1. #1
    Pit Lord
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    [MW] Fistweaving Mana Efficiency

    I thought I'd ask this because nobody really plays a monk around me. When my guild started to work on heroic Feng and Garalon, I have decided to try what I was seeing in the top ranking monks on world of logs.

    So yeah, basic jab-jab-uplift when trying to keep renewing mist on as much target as I can, using the tea cooldown before crushes if I could and using mana tea as much as I could.

    However that style of Healing makes me basically oom all fight, I really purely on mana tea generation. Granted I sit at 8-9k spirit (buffed), 6.8k unbuffed, and my gear still sucks, but seeing 72k HPS (3 healed), that seemed to work. It pulls bigger number than what I was doing before, which was soothing mists, renewing mist and well, not generating chi from melee attacks and using spinning crane kick a lot more.

    So seriously, is there a more mana efficient way to do this that you don't have to stand still 5 seconds to get some mana back and hope mana tide is soon? it's stressful Healing, but seriously OP for AoE Healing in 10 man.

    And while I'm at it, what is supposed to be the dps done by that, seem a lot lower than disc priests.

    Edit: Realized people might want logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10577&e=11010

    For those wondering, 72k hps really not that big of a deal for a monk on that fight.
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2012-11-09 at 07:34 AM.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest
    <Razzia>, US-Arthas | @Spotnick

  2. #2
    You seem to have gone from never using jab to always using jab. Find a point inbetween where you have a much better Chi generation but you're not sending yourself oom. Remember quite a lot of fistweaving healing comes from 2 stacks of Serpents Zeal which costs no mana so you don't always need to be spamming jab every GCD. You also only used Expel Harm 3 times, you should be using this on cooldown as it is our cheapest chi generator.

  3. #3
    Remember that you're not DPSing. Don't use Uplift if no one needs the healing. If you're sitting at 4 Chi and no one needs healing, just stop casting for a few seconds, don't feel like you always have to be on GCD.

  4. #4
    In most cases serpents zeal is a healing loss in practical conditions. Even assuming perfect uptime and refresh, it's a Very slight healing gain. Not worth the extra thought when you're already managing more CDs, resources and harder positioning than most other healers (being in Melee range and/or stacking with Melee.)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    In most cases serpents zeal is a healing loss in practical conditions. Even assuming perfect uptime and refresh, it's a Very slight healing gain. Not worth the extra thought when you're already managing more CDs, resources and harder positioning than most other healers (being in Melee range and/or stacking with Melee.)
    Not sure I can agree with this if someone is going for a heavy fistweaving style. Melee often is our number 1 source of damage on single-target encounters and without serpent's zeal it goes to waste. I can agree that letting it fall off or waiting till the last possible second to put it back on (Weakauras is your friend on this, btw) is better than hounding on it and missing seconds on casting Renewing Mist.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  6. #6
    Blademaster Omnomnoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    In most cases serpents zeal is a healing loss in practical conditions. Even assuming perfect uptime and refresh, it's a Very slight healing gain. Not worth the extra thought when you're already managing more CDs, resources and harder positioning than most other healers (being in Melee range and/or stacking with Melee.)
    I do not feel this is the case. You can get quite a lot of Eminence healing in simply by watching the Serpent's Zeal buff and keeping it nearly 90% up time provides a lot of healing, close to 10% of my healing at least.
    You have to take into account that you are healing through meleeing the boss/add not just near you but near your statue as well. On fights where you need burst/fast healing and every GCD counts (I'm looking at you Feng with 15+ stacks of Draw Flame) while you are jabbing to throw out those uplifts to keep everyone up, that is translated into healing. The melee you are doing between jabs, is healing. And if the healing you feel is going to waste, there is always the extra dps you are doing while healing.

    In regards to the OP: Yes Jabbing to me feels more mana efficient. It also lets you control/push out uplifts incredibly faster (vs waiting on Chi procs on Soothing Mist). This does not mean you jab CONSTANTLY. It is acceptable to sit there on the boss/add if there is not any immediate danger. I have found that if the damage is light enough and I know I will not need a huge healing boost anytime soon I throw out a Chi Wave for some extra damage/healing, refresh Serpent's Zeal or throw up some Tiger Palm stacks.
    And as it has been mentioned, Expel Harm is the cheapest Chi generator we have. Yes it might not damage anything when we are at full HP, but if you are not in melee range or it is impossible to melee something to get Chi, then Expel Harm is your go-to generator (despite the cooldown).
    If you feel you are still running into mana issues there is always improvement to your spirit (both in gear and in gem choices). You can sacrifice a little throughput by turning the gem in your legs into a int/spirit gem, the orange gem in your chest into a spirit/crit or spirit/mastery gem.
    The biggest upgrades gear wise in terms of spirit are easy to obtain. For bracers with spirit on them que up for Shado-Pan Monastery. There are leather spirit bracers off the first boss and drop quite often in my experience. There is also the Spirit Barrel trinket from Stormstout Brewery first boss. Both of these are easy to queue up for, kill boss, then drop group if it doesn't drop and try again the next day. Shoulders however are not so easy and require a full clear of Scarlet Monastery.

    Hope I was able to help.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Omnomnoms View Post
    There is also the Spirit Barrel trinket from Stormstout Brewery first boss. Both of these are easy to queue up for, kill boss, then drop group if it doesn't drop and try again the next day.
    Great comments and helpful info. Although Omnomnoms this type of selfish mentality (experienced by many players in queuing heroics) irks me to no belief. Surely someone as helpful as you doesn't really do this to their fellow players?

  8. #8
    IMO you should be gemming for more spirit, gemming for raw int doesn't seem all that good to me, especially with your gear level.

    Personally I barely use jab in those fights and SCK for chi instead, unless I need the chi NOW for TFT or wtv. Also I'm not really sure about healing in 10 mans, but I would imagine if you can hit enough targets chi burst is usually going to win over uplift?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonrisa View Post
    IMO you should be gemming for more spirit, gemming for raw int doesn't seem all that good to me, especially with your gear level.

    Personally I barely use jab in those fights and SCK for chi instead, unless I need the chi NOW for TFT or wtv. Also I'm not really sure about healing in 10 mans, but I would imagine if you can hit enough targets chi burst is usually going to win over uplift?
    You do realize he's talking about fistweaving, right? That means eminence. SCK neither gives eminence nor is mana efficient at all in low-damage situations (which would make up the majority of of the time during a raid boss.) He's need, top of my head, well over 30k spirit to handle spamming SCK constantly to get the chi required to fistweave.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  10. #10
    Pit Lord
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    Well, being oom as a monk doesn't mean you can't heal, especially if you have full stacks of mana tea, but I figured there is a better way to make this than just running oom and use your mana tea on cooldown. The annoying part is you don't really have mana in case of emergency, and sometimes you just can't heal when you have mana tea on cooldown, and in worst case, you have no tea and need normal regen to give you enough to jab again... which is rare though, because fistweaving generates a lot more mana tea than a more ranged healer way.

    Yes, stupid shoulders never drop, I do have the fruit barrel but I prefer the spirit cooldown over it, I get that, mana is not really an issue if I heal a more "traditional" way, but this is strictly if I go melee and jab, this drains mana like crazy, but it heals a ton when you uplift. Sadly I swapped to my monk only 2 weeks ago so it's trailing a bit gearwise.



    Expel Harm seems like a nice idea, I don't use it as much as I should to generate chi.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 05:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonrisa View Post
    IMO you should be gemming for more spirit, gemming for raw int doesn't seem all that good to me, especially with your gear level.

    Personally I barely use jab in those fights and SCK for chi instead, unless I need the chi NOW for TFT or wtv. Also I'm not really sure about healing in 10 mans, but I would imagine if you can hit enough targets chi burst is usually going to win over uplift?
    I use Chi Wave, because in 10 man, it's very rare that you have enough stacked people to make Chi Burst worth it. I tried it on a few occasions, but I really prefer the instant Chi Wave. I used to use SCK all the way for aoe heals, but uplift has no proximity requirement, so it heals everybody if you have renewmist on everybody, which is awesome.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest
    <Razzia>, US-Arthas | @Spotnick

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    I use Chi Wave, because in 10 man, it's very rare that you have enough stacked people to make Chi Burst worth it. I tried it on a few occasions, but I really prefer the instant Chi Wave.
    I see this all the time, and every time someone says it I can't help but wonder, in what world would you ever use Chi Wave when you could have used Uplift instead? It takes a rather long time to actually do its heal, and even then it requires a target to be within 20 yards of the boss and it heals for less than Uplift does on 6 targets. I get thinking that Chi Burst doesn't have very many uses for spread out fights, but I can't fathom a single use for Chi Wave.

  12. #12
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I see this all the time, and every time someone says it I can't help but wonder, in what world would you ever use Chi Wave when you could have used Uplift instead? It takes a rather long time to actually do its heal, and even then it requires a target to be within 20 yards of the boss and it heals for less than Uplift does on 6 targets. I get thinking that Chi Burst doesn't have very many uses for spread out fights, but I can't fathom a single use for Chi Wave.
    Chi Wave is solid single target healing. I would consider it for fights where only the tank is taking damage as a supplement to Enveloping Mist. It's more burst and overall single target healing than Zen Sphere, IIRC, at the risk that it jumps to someone other than the intended target and requires an enemy target to bounce off of. There's a reason it's pretty popular for tanks (although it also scales ridiculously well with AP).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    I see this all the time, and every time someone says it I can't help but wonder, in what world would you ever use Chi Wave when you could have used Uplift instead? It takes a rather long time to actually do its heal, and even then it requires a target to be within 20 yards of the boss and it heals for less than Uplift does on 6 targets. I get thinking that Chi Burst doesn't have very many uses for spread out fights, but I can't fathom a single use for Chi Wave.
    Elegon "phase 2" . When you destroy these sparks. Chi Wave will be more effective than uplift. Helping out the DD with dmg while automatically healing him constantly(cause sparks explode and the one take constant dmg, and I use it on a melee)
    Yes, Uplift heals way more if it is on 6 target, but chiwave heals alot if just one takes dmg. I use it at to help the tank heals at Will of the Emperor while dancing sometimes. Because at Will most of the time only the tanks get alot of dmg, chi wave is alot more effective than uplift would be. In the titan gas phase its obviously the other way around

  14. #14
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vogelweide View Post
    Elegon "phase 2" . When you destroy these sparks. Chi Wave will be more effective than uplift. Helping out the DD with dmg while automatically healing him constantly(cause sparks explode and the one take constant dmg, and I use it on a melee)
    Yes, Uplift heals way more if it is on 6 target, but chiwave heals alot if just one takes dmg. I use it at to help the tank heals at Will of the Emperor while dancing sometimes. Because at Will most of the time only the tanks get alot of dmg, chi wave is alot more effective than uplift would be. In the titan gas phase its obviously the other way around
    Everyone takes damage when the sparks explode... I prefer to use Uplift/ReM and just BoK the sparks; there's no rush to heal people up, since you have at least 10 seconds before the next wave dies. Taking Chi Wave here where it's marginally useful prevents you from using Chi Burst in the burn phase where it's amazing.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Chi Wave is solid single target healing. I would consider it for fights where only the tank is taking damage as a supplement to Enveloping Mist. It's more burst and overall single target healing than Zen Sphere, IIRC, at the risk that it jumps to someone other than the intended target and requires an enemy target to bounce off of. There's a reason it's pretty popular for tanks (although it also scales ridiculously well with AP).
    It's popular for tanks because they don't have Enveloping Mists. It does "a lot of healing", sure, but why would you use it when you could use Enveloping Mists, which effectively does a lot more? You have to keep relative cost in mind. The only time when Chi Wave would be worth the 2 Chi it costs is if exactly 2 or 3 people are getting hit for a decent amount one after the other. That kind of scenario just doesn't happen. Yes, fights exist where you wouldn't want to use Chi Burst, but that doesn't make Chi Wave any less of a terrible spell than it is. It's not worth the 2 Chi it costs when it MIGHT heal one target for 125k when you could just cough up the extra chi and use Enveloping Mists which is a lot more effective.

  16. #16
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's popular for tanks because they don't have Enveloping Mists. It does "a lot of healing", sure, but why would you use it when you could use Enveloping Mists, which effectively does a lot more? You have to keep relative cost in mind. The only time when Chi Wave would be worth the 2 Chi it costs is if exactly 2 or 3 people are getting hit for a decent amount one after the other. That kind of scenario just doesn't happen. Yes, fights exist where you wouldn't want to use Chi Burst, but that doesn't make Chi Wave any less of a terrible spell than it is. It's not worth the 2 Chi it costs when it MIGHT heal one target for 125k when you could just cough up the extra chi and use Enveloping Mists which is a lot more effective.
    I'm not saying I use it... just saying there's a niche for it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's popular for tanks because they don't have Enveloping Mists. It does "a lot of healing", sure, but why would you use it when you could use Enveloping Mists, which effectively does a lot more? You have to keep relative cost in mind. The only time when Chi Wave would be worth the 2 Chi it costs is if exactly 2 or 3 people are getting hit for a decent amount one after the other. That kind of scenario just doesn't happen. Yes, fights exist where you wouldn't want to use Chi Burst, but that doesn't make Chi Wave any less of a terrible spell than it is. It's not worth the 2 Chi it costs when it MIGHT heal one target for 125k when you could just cough up the extra chi and use Enveloping Mists which is a lot more effective.
    On fights like Will of the Emperor, Chi Wave does only jump between boss and the tank(most of the time, excluding titan gase phase), so you get like 300-400k heal out of 2 chi. Enveloping Mist can never top that.
    Yea, its just one boss, but Chi Wave has some niches.

  18. #18
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vogelweide View Post
    On fights like Will of the Emperor, Chi Wave does only jump between boss and the tank(most of the time, excluding titan gase phase), so you get like 300-400k heal out of 2 chi. Enveloping Mist can never top that.
    Yea, its just one boss, but Chi Wave has some niches.
    Your Chi Wave heals for over 75k per bounce? O.o I'm looking at some top parses for Will10N where monks are using Chi Wave, and they're seeing 25k per bounce for ~100k total healing per cast, before crits, which is lower than I expected.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Your Chi Wave heals for over 75k per bounce? O.o I'm looking at some top parses for Will10N where monks are using Chi Wave, and they're seeing 25k per bounce for ~100k total healing per cast, before crits, which is lower than I expected.
    Yeah he's just making up numbers, I just specced into it to test it again and it was right around 35k per bounce like I remembered it was. That's 140k total (before overhealing, which I guess is where it drops from 35k to 25k as it's not likely to avoid overhealing entirely). That's opposed to the 175k from Enveloping Mists (which you can be sure won't decide to go to another target instead), meaning you'd need a 35k increase in Soothing Mists to make up the Chi difference, which would be about 2/3s of a channel of Soothing Mists with the statue helping out, which you should be doing anyways if you're that concerned about tank healing.

    Saying that Enveloping Mists can't do more healing than Chi Wave is simply false, it does more healing naturally and makes up the difference in Chi cost if you're also channeling Soothing Mists.

  20. #20
    That seems like an awfully low amount of spirit. I haven't really kept up with Monks and how they are gearing until recently, but it seemed like every other class was using a minimum of 10k spirit. So that seems like it will be your problem.

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