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  1. #21
    Hit cap or go home imo. A small chance to miss is a greater dps loss than a marginal bump in a secondary stat

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decimation2g View Post
    Hit cap or go home imo. A small chance to miss is a greater dps loss than a marginal bump in a secondary stat
    Affliction locks say hi. They get the best DPS at about 6% IIRC.

    EDIT: AMR has 8%.
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  3. #23
    I think you can be slightly under... as a Frost DK with 3 main abilities tied to RNG anyways. if you have a 0.1% miss rate then obviously you have 99.9% chance of hitting stuff (and for DKs I don't think the runes get used up, though we lose KM... CMIIW), there's a good chance you won't miss in a boss fight.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    It depends on your class. There have been classes in the past (and there are classes now) where one of their other secondary stats is better than Hit. Therefore, they don't really need to bother with hit cap at all (just making sure they don't go over it).

    In this specific case, Mr. Robot is not exact enough to calculate that last 0.2%. I recommend using Mr. Robot for gear and gems and enchants, then heading over to http://www.wowreforge.com/ for Reforging because their reforging is 10x more accurate and can get you exactly to hit cap.

    Imagine you had X amount of resources as a website to spend on calculations. Mr. Robot uses that X for gear, gems, enchants, and reforging all at once, but to do that it sacrifices a few percent in accuracy (I think they claim like 98% accuracy). WoWReforge ONLY does Reforging, so they can be extremely accurate with it.
    This makes no sense. Its not like you have 100 accuracy when programming and have to spend it on all.
    The "problem" with mr robot is and they defended it long long time that for the last few points to reach the cap its often that other stats outweight hit (or exp on that matter). So in fact by getting 0.1 below hit cap you would see more dps in the long run. Ofc if your mighty execute as warrior fails this means all the probably won dps over the fight is lost. Thats why mr. robot now also has a "get me to the cap" button after so long.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dethlyhallows View Post
    I began using Mr. Robot for a new class I leveled up and it said that you do not need to be fully hit capped. As long as your under 0.20% your ok. (0.2%>0.19%). Is this right?
    It's almost impossible to be exactly at the hitcap.
    If your choice is (made up numbers incoming) 0.1% below it or 1% above it, than sometimes it's better to stay slightly below it.

  6. #26
    I thought having 16.9% was good enough for my mage until, in a single boss fight, two insta pyros missed as well as application of living bomb. This is crap I'd rather not content with ever, so being slightly over and never missing beats being slightly under and having a tiny chance of your important spells being completely wasted because less than a quarter of a percent for another secondary was registered as "better".

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulb View Post
    No, she does NOT. Thats just WRONG.

    Hit is not the same as expertise.
    My mage disagrees.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    There's nothing magical about hit caps. If you could change how much of each stat you can reforge, then, yeah, you should absolutely be at hit cap. But you only have so many possibilities for reforges, and you can imagine a case where you are choosing between 2 best scenarios:

    1. Slightly over hit, high amount of mediocre stat, low amount of awesome stat
    2. Slightly under hit, high amount of awesome stat, low amount of mediocre stat

    If the loss of hit is made up by the difference between the awesome and mediocre stat, then yeah, it's better to be under.


    However, the difference in DPS is probably smaller than the error of the simulations that give us the weighting, so don't sweat it either way.


    The downside is if a "miss" messes up your rotation. If you miss on something that has to have 100% uptime, and you don't notice and you go a few ticks, then you have a "human error" component that these reforge sites aren't going to catch. In that case, it's better to be always over hit cap.

  9. #29
    Isn't hit a very linear dps increase, whereas other stats may have diminishing returns or plateaus (haste)?

    I see little reason to leave yourself with 0.2% misschance just because. Not to mention for classes that depend on ability-generated resources (Holy power, Chi, Combo Points..)
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  10. #30
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Knew It View Post
    Wrong

    Its dependent on the class, sometimes being slightly under doesnt matter due to other stats giving you more dps point for point up to a certain point. Especially if it would allow you to reach a haste plateau for example
    Meh, he didn't even list the class. I was going by my class, which is a DK



  11. #31
    Just like every other Min/Max subject in previous versions there is some agreement and some dissension with hit/expertise. I have had numerous conversations with Guild mates about the value of capping each and listened to their explanation as to why their class does not need it, then they comply with my challenge to cap, then come back and are amazed at the dps difference. Normally we are talking in large quantities statistically at least, 1 ~ 2% below either cap is significant. .2% is not, that means 1 miss per 500 casts on average, if 1 miss per 500 average, is unacceptable to you then max hit cap and go over as far as you need to until you find the right combinations to hit exactly. However the increase in DPS gain, by moving that additional reforge statistic to something that directly impacts the other 499 casts can be a notable increase in DPS that covers over the miss. On average you will have greater DPS by not wasting stats and going over a cap. You cannot think in individual fights the program is attempting to tell you that overall, from now on, you are better off putting that stat gain into a dps generator rather than a DPS support stat. We have a tendency to look at a single fight and make assumptions about everything else, Bottom line, .2% is insignificant compared to over capping and wasting stats.

    But even then that is subjective, how much are you wasting, dose the last reforge produce a stat that is actually DPS useful, are you limited to haste or spirit or something that will not impact your class and spec enough to matter, therefore the answer to your question is still, "Maybe" no matter how many iterations or permutations you run the answer will still be "Maybe" the variables for each class, spec, and individually geared toon are just that individual and hard to throw a blanket over and say yes or no.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Aff locks don't need to be hitcapped.

    And my Rogue isn't, as she gets free Envenom uptime with less Hit.
    I dont buy into that all.

    Sure, depending on your gear haste and mastery will give you a statistical advantage when simulating but that's just it. It's a simulation, theoretical.
    And missing a haunt or 2 during execute phase is going to hurt you much more than the theoretical dps bonus you get at all times can do good.
    the only time I would consider not being hit-capped is if approaching haste threshold.

    Being hit capped might be considered conservative or even slacking on true min/maxing by some guys. I call it applying rational thought for actual practical purposes :-)

  13. #33
    There's no point arguing about whether or not you need hit cap. It depends on your class. A class like Enhance Shaman will lose a LOT of DPS if one of their main abilities misses (flame shock for example) and there are similar things with Fire Mages having Combusion miss. Then there are classes like Arcane Mage where a missed cast is just the loss of a GCD. It is similar with Feral druids and rogues, where they have most of their energy refunded on a miss so they can allocate some hit rating into mastery/crit/haste to make all of their other attacks more powerful.

  14. #34
    Ribbon Guru Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    This makes no sense. Its not like you have 100 accuracy when programming and have to spend it on all.
    The "problem" with mr robot is and they defended it long long time that for the last few points to reach the cap its often that other stats outweight hit (or exp on that matter). So in fact by getting 0.1 below hit cap you would see more dps in the long run. Ofc if your mighty execute as warrior fails this means all the probably won dps over the fight is lost. Thats why mr. robot now also has a "get me to the cap" button after so long.
    Increasing calculation time will always increase accuracy with NP-Complete problems such as gearing in World of Warcraft. No system on this planet (at this time) could calculate perfectly accurate results for a WoW character's gear, gems, enchants, and reforges in 3 seconds, and AMR is no exception to this.

    I'm telling you I can enter my Ret set into AMR, then reforge like it says and get a number (such as 140580 or something), then go to WoWReforge, run their reforging, then reimport my WoW character into AMR and my score will have increased (to something like 140650). You could too.

    Your point about stats devaluing is considered by all reforging tools everywhere and is irrelevant to my point. WoWReforge often places me a few points of hit below cap. Getting that last 1 or 2 hit in a tradeoff for like 8 of another stat is not worth it, but when you're short 20 Hit, trading 18 Mastery for 18 Hit is always worth it (well, for classes where Hit > Mastery). The problem is that AMR doesn't have the required level of accuracy to see that because it cuts off calculations at a certain accuracy threshold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xolotl View Post
    I dont buy into that all.

    Sure, depending on your gear haste and mastery will give you a statistical advantage when simulating but that's just it. It's a simulation, theoretical.
    And missing a haunt or 2 during execute phase is going to hurt you much more than the theoretical dps bonus you get at all times can do good.
    the only time I would consider not being hit-capped is if approaching haste threshold.

    Being hit capped might be considered conservative or even slacking on true min/maxing by some guys. I call it applying rational thought for actual practical purposes :-)
    It was cute when people said this about Feral Druids in Wrath and argued it was their opinion. Don't try to explain away "I don't like seeing my spells miss" with "Not hitcapping is only valid in simulations" because that is just patently false. Hit is just another statistic that does a specific function.

    If you had a 50% chance to hit a boss and you could pick between making your spells do 150% more damage or increasing your hit chance to 100%, the smart choice is going to be the 150% more damage every single day of the week.
    Last edited by Simca; 2012-11-16 at 03:37 AM.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    If you had a 50% chance to hit a boss and you could pick between making your spells do 75% more damage or increasing your hit chance to 100%, the smart choice is going to be the 75% more damage every single day of the week.

    50% chance to hit -> 100% chance to hit = 2x damage (+100%)

    I'd still pick +100% over +75%

  16. #36
    Ribbon Guru Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    50% chance to hit -> 100% chance to hit = 2x damage (+100%)

    I'd still pick +100% over +75%
    Good point, I was in a hurry. Fixed example.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post

    It was cute when people said this about Feral Druids in Wrath and argued it was their opinion. Don't try to explain away "I don't like seeing my spells miss" with "Not hitcapping is only valid in simulations" because that is just patently false. Hit is just another statistic that does a specific function.

    If you had a 50% chance to hit a boss and you could pick between making your spells do 150% more damage or increasing your hit chance to 100%, the smart choice is going to be the 150% more damage every single day of the week.
    I dont think your example with those numbers is true although I havent done the math. If all spells just do flat damage that might be true but a 50% miss chance on a relatively long CDs with extremely potent damage boosts like Haunt (plus the wasted shard) or half my DS ticks would be an absolute nogo for me, especially at the times when it is most important, when safe burst is needed or during execute phases.

    Or I am waiting until the last moment to refresh my dots waiting for procs. And then the stars align and everything is procced and I refresh for a nice damage bonus at the last second before one of the buffs falls off! Oh wait, no. I missed :-)

    simulations dont take scenarios like that into account, that's why I cannot trust them blindly.

    It's not really about not liking to see my spells miss (which I dont like btw).

    In the end the main reason I am doing good DPS is because I am using the stats on my gear to the greatest potential I can, I am preparing properly and staying a few steps ahead mentally in the encounter at all times, smart positioning, precise cooldown alignment, quick reaction to the specific encounter mechanics. Sure, I might lose some overall DPS but I am not just wasting them and throwing that DPS overboard. I am buying the safety of having a guaranteed 100% of my potential DPS available whenever I rely on it.

    as an affliction lock for example, I want to guarantee 100% optimal performance during execute phase. Not being hit capped cannot guarantee me that.
    Last edited by Xolotl; 2012-11-16 at 06:15 AM.

  18. #38
    The thing about Ask Mr. Robot, you see, is that you shouldn't listen to Mr. Robot.

    Also, if you're reading this post, in particular, you're a Mr. Robot staffer that searches for Mr. Robot every ten seconds on fan sites in order to post a form letter about why the website is so awesome and never wrong.

  19. #39
    It's worth noting that, unless you are in a Heroic progression guild, the difference will not matter. You could be over hit, you could be slightly under, the small amount of secondary stats you will gain from not having that .20% isn't going to amount to a massive DPS increase so really you can do whatever you are more comfortable with. I always keep myself hit capped simply because I absolutely hate missing big attacks, it's a pet peeve. I could statistically reforge out in some place but the dps increase would be like 300 DPS if that, nothing to fret over.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by GnomercyBeastmaster View Post
    Hmm. If I am not capped, I stand a chance of missing. If I miss, I might not crit. If I don't drit, my numbers look bad. Guess I better cap, just in case.
    this logic is so wrong i dont even know where to begin
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