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  1. #61
    I agree! I think that's why I dislike Hunter's now. I feel like we spam a lot of low hitting abilities rather than a few hard hitting ones.

  2. #62
    Yes, because when we hit hard the PvP'rs whine and complain waaaaaaaa hunter hit me hard.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokas View Post
    remind me when did hunters delayed anything? no gaps in rotation, even prior mop
    Ok shitter heres some info from the best hunter eu

    In cata survival was mong proof u kept 2 buttons on cd and smashed explosive shot when it procced with weaving in an arcane shot it was retard proof kinda like DK or Warrior right now.Tracking 2 timers makes ur rotation simple to run it smooth unlike in mop where its abit harder.

    In mop we have to actually pay attention to 5 things while judgling our cds my UI is mothafucking P.I.M.P it lets me line up my cds like a boss and I find the class still ezpz cause im totes amazeballs.

    So all you shitters l2p or roll DK or some other shit.
    Last edited by LG-IM Best Hunter EU; 2012-12-13 at 12:27 AM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LG-IM Best Hunter EU View Post
    Ok shitter heres some info from the best hunter eu

    In cata survival was mong proof u kept 2 buttons on cd and smashed explosive shot when it procced with weaving in an arcane shot it was retard proof kinda like DK or Warrior right now.Tracking 2 timers makes ur rotation simple to run it smooth unlike in mop where its abit harder.

    In mop we have to actually pay attention to 5 things while judgling our cds my UI is mothafucking P.I.M.P it lets me line up my cds like a boss and I find the class still ezpz cause im totes amazeballs.

    So all you shitters l2p or roll DK or some other shit.
    how do i subscribe to your newsletter ?

  5. #65
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    I would like to hear more.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by LG-IM Best Hunter EU View Post
    I find the class still ezpz cause im totes amazeballs.

    So all you shitters l2p or roll DK or some other shit.
    Armory or bullshit.
    I can't help but feel my "epic" experience being diminished when I wage battle against mighty Ordos and 10 people in the raid do nothing but /jump and /fart ...
    -- Strych, 90 Orc Warrior, Tarren Mill EU

  7. #67
    i actually love to have more abilities to press and more keybinds. I still have room for more keybinds and no im not using the naga mouse. With all these new abilities you can easily see if the hunter are a good or bad player and that makes it more fun to play the game. For some reason I dont understand why any hunter would complain about keybinds. I have everything I need for raiding and pvp keybound and still room for arena 1-3 macro and party 1-3.
    - Lynchpin -

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by ganodorf View Post
    i use toth..since nobody even mentioned here i was wondering if it is a great dps loss compared to dire beast.
    toth is not really the point of the discussion, but in short: it is a dps loss singletarget. the loss is not that bad for surv as for BM. as SV is our "aoe specc" (which does acceptable singletargetdmg now aswell) it makes sense to take toth as SV.
    and as BM is our singletargetdmg specc, take DB. provides most damage on one target

  9. #69
    I find that Dire beast lines up really well with Murder. I pop DB and Murder on the pull, Murder has a 30 second duration, DB has a 30 sec CD. When DB comes off CD, I hit it, readiness, Murder, DB, RF, and I've easily overcome the 60 focus cost in two seconds, plus I'm running near peak numbers for almost a full minute into the fight. Which I think is pretty damn impressive.

    the problem isn't the talents, it's finding the talents that work best together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonwolfe View Post
    In other words, he's worried about how sharp your bayonet is when you are firing RPG's.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Neteyes View Post
    Simple fix, use Fervor instead of Dire Beast as SV and as for BM wait with using Crows until you get BW up.

    As for the new abilities, I like having more buttons to push and not just a rotation you could manage with a castsequence macro.
    This was not the case in Cataclysm, and if you played it this way, you contributed to the myth of BM being bad. It had less buttons then it does now, but it required a level of skill equal to what it does now. The only difference is now you have more buttons to press, which exceed what's available on my naga/kb to DPS effectively. At this point, I have to click on 1 or 2 abilities because I am out of binding space.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 02:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunstreaker View Post
    i actually love to have more abilities to press and more keybinds. I still have room for more keybinds and no im not using the naga mouse. With all these new abilities you can easily see if the hunter are a good or bad player and that makes it more fun to play the game. For some reason I dont understand why any hunter would complain about keybinds. I have everything I need for raiding and pvp keybound and still room for arena 1-3 macro and party 1-3.
    Perhaps you can give us your layout/spec so it can be examined. KC, AS, CS, FF, BW, ET, FD, MD, MS, Focus Fire, WG, LR, not including the 3 CC/or silences one should use along VS and TS if you're worth a damn. Pots, trinkets, readiness... I am sure I am missing things. God help you if you're an engineer (luckily I am not)

    Sorry, no, it's not about being easy, it's about being reasonable. If it were 2-3 more than Cata rather than doubling what you need to do to play the class/spec, then you'd have a point. And you're right to feel awesome about the change, but the problem is for the lesser players there's no way to play this game with the expectations that have been set up in the past 2 expansions.

    It's lost the "easy to play, hard to master" moniker for this class. This sucks for my 60 year old parents who used to enjoy playing their hunters. They didn't try to raid, they just wanted to enjoy themselves doing dailies and such. They don't enjoy themselves any more, which is an indication that it's become to complex just to do the basics, let alone actually use all your necessary abilities.

    I'm not advocating that it needs to be dead simple, I am saying you should be able to do heroics by pressing, at most, 6 buttons (not including movement) at say 60-80% of what someone who knows how to use everything correctly can do. That's the general goal I would go for when designing a system for a wide variety of skillsets and to get the most number of people enjoying the game.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by LG-IM Best Hunter EU View Post
    Ok shitter heres some info from the best hunter eu

    In cata survival was mong proof u kept 2 buttons on cd and smashed explosive shot when it procced with weaving in an arcane shot it was retard proof kinda like DK or Warrior right now.Tracking 2 timers makes ur rotation simple to run it smooth unlike in mop where its abit harder.

    In mop we have to actually pay attention to 5 things while judgling our cds my UI is mothafucking P.I.M.P it lets me line up my cds like a boss and I find the class still ezpz cause im totes amazeballs.

    So all you shitters l2p or roll DK or some other shit.
    Not only do you talk bull¤%&#, not knowing what you are talking about. In WotLK, survival hunters delayed they ES by 2 seconds to get in an auto shot and let the ES dot tick out, so your next ES hit right when the dot ended.

    EDIT: better keep this comment for myself to avoid getting banned... -.-'
    Last edited by Garkanh; 2012-12-13 at 10:56 AM.

  12. #72
    i miss the old talent system , R.I.P

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    Not only do you talk bull¤%&#, not knowing what you are talking about. In WotLK, survival hunters delayed they ES by 2 seconds to get in an auto shot and let the ES dot tick out, so your next ES hit right when the dot ended.

    EDIT: better keep this comment for myself to avoid getting banned... -.-'
    How about you learn to type shitter before I destroy you.Delaying an explosive shot to let ticks off is true but I don't think that affected auto shots.

  14. #74
    Brewmaster Cyph3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpoundsign View Post
    Sorry, no, it's not about being easy, it's about being reasonable. If it were 2-3 more than Cata rather than doubling what you need to do to play the class/spec, then you'd have a point. And you're right to feel awesome about the change, but the problem is for the lesser players there's no way to play this game with the expectations that have been set up in the past 2 expansions.

    It's lost the "easy to play, hard to master" moniker for this class. This sucks for my 60 year old parents who used to enjoy playing their hunters. They didn't try to raid, they just wanted to enjoy themselves doing dailies and such. They don't enjoy themselves any more, which is an indication that it's become to complex just to do the basics, let alone actually use all your necessary abilities.

    I'm not advocating that it needs to be dead simple, I am saying you should be able to do heroics by pressing, at most, 6 buttons (not including movement) at say 60-80% of what someone who knows how to use everything correctly can do. That's the general goal I would go for when designing a system for a wide variety of skillsets and to get the most number of people enjoying the game.
    Amen to that. The sad part of all of this is that some of the blame lies on our shoulders. This issue really should have come up during beta when they were clearly listening to our feedback and making changes accordingly. We were so focused on the balance and feel of the new talent trees and each individual new ability (so much back and forth over stampede), that we never really stepped back to look at the class as a whole. Otherwise we might have brought up the button bloat sooner.

    That said, it's still a problem. I fully agree that every class should be designed with not only a theme and basic functionality in mind, but also with the goal of keeping number of abilties within a certain range, and keeping rotations (tanking and dps) around an approximate complexity. I also personally think it's better for the game if certain classes "specialize" in certain things. It should be ok for one class to have better or more CCs than the rest, as long as they lose something else to compensate (burst for example). I don't think that's the case right now, and it's partially responsible for our button bloat, as well as issues with other classes.

    The real bitch here is that things aren't going to change anytime soon. They're just not. I think it was a recent GC tweet where he stated that they lose more subs from class changes than they do from balance issues. Meaning they would rather let things remain unbalanced for a while if fixing it means making big class changes, and scaring people off. In other words, they can't just start stripping abilities away from Hunters, it's going to be a slow process of combining things, or removing them one at a time over multiple expansions.

    This is the modern Hunter, and it's (mostly) here to stay.
    - The Hunter's Creed -
    "This is my pet. There are many others like him, but this one is mine. He is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I master my life.
    My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by LG-IM Best Hunter EU View Post
    I think its awesome managing so many buttons cause delaying anything is a dps loss which separates the shitters from the good players.

    Unlike cata you can outdps other hunters easily with better gear just by doing your rotation smoother.
    I regularly out-DPS'd much better geared players in Cata with a better rotation as BM. I topped damage done on nearly every lfr, and all the raids (though the server, Boulderfist, is low pop) and this was BM against the "popular" specs. If you think rotation didn't matter and only gear in Cata, you were solely wrong. I agree it needed 1 or 2 new buttons to make the rotation a little more complex, but doubling it was a bit excessive. It used to feel like playing a song on a keyboard. Now it feels like nearly every ability is a reaction.

    That's fine if you're into it, but there's no alternative for those who enjoyed that there was variety in the specs in terms of how they felt to play. Now they all feel like a crazy whack-a-mole game. I'm also not advocating it's macroable, which a lot of the really bad players like to claim. There's no way you could macro good DPS out of a BM hunter in cataclysm, and this was likely the reason it looked bad. I am no hardcore player, but I ranked a few times on WoL firelands normal.

    For those of us that didn't enjoy the whack-a-mole of SV and MM in Cata we had another choice that was "lower dps"... which I never personally saw because I could execute it well enough to beat the inherit advantages of the other specs. I'm doing fine in MoP, but some of my friends and my 60+ year old parents can't play the game how they used to enjoy it because it's too much for them. (again, they don't raid, never did well in them, they do dailies and the like for fun)

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 10:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by WUTCRAP View Post
    i miss the old talent system , R.I.P
    I don't. This is like getting a new car and a new road. The new road is bumpy, so you blame the car for the ride not being as smooth.

  16. #76
    #showtooltip Glaive Toss
    /castsequence reset=5 Glaive Toss, Dire Beast

    reset=5 is arbitrary number
    puts both these abilities into one button. pretty much keeps them lined up perfectly if you Glaive Toss on CD.


    I love these abilities and can handle them fine in the rotation. My problem is with the BM opener, especially the use of readiness there in.
    I can't figure out when to use readiness! There are so many abilities with a short CD that by the time you have strung together a bunch of abilities in order to then use readiness, a couple are already a few seconds away from coming off CD, so I wait to use them again and then use readiness. Totally feels uncomfortable because I have no idea what I'm doing.

    I currently think something like this is close to an optimal opener, please help correct it and make it better.
    traps if possible without pulling.
    pre pot, misdirect, sting, rapid fire, glaive toss, dire beast, stampede, bestial wrath, murder of crows, kc,as as as as,kc. probably a glaive toss in there too.
    then dire beast somewhere after first bestial, also need to reapply sting because not casting cobra shot then readiness, dire beast, bestial wrath, glaive toss, kc, as, as, as, murder of crows?, kc.
    after second bestial use up all your energy by doing kc>arcane shot then when you are depleted use the frenzy stacks with focus fire and pop the second rapid fire and go ham. make sure you checked if serpent sting fell off since you need to reapply it if it fell off.

    Look at it... what a mess.
    Last edited by LKPVmnjler; 2012-12-13 at 07:52 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by LKPVmnjler View Post
    I currently think something like this is close to an optimal opener, please help correct it and make it better.
    traps if possible without pulling.
    pre pot, misdirect, sting, rapid fire, glaive toss, dire beast, stampede, bestial wrath, murder of crows, kc,as as as as,kc. probably a glaive toss in there too.
    then dire beast somewhere after first bestial, also need to reapply sting because not casting cobra shot then readiness, dire beast, bestial wrath, glaive toss, kc, as, as, as, murder of crows?, kc.
    You don't want to RF and BW at the same time. You also don't want to Focus Fire and BW at the same time. You want to try and keep your frenzy stacks on your pet as you BW, so I usually open with BW, let it run it's course, focus fire/rf until BW id off cd again, then BW w/ frenzy then readiness then bw with frenzy again. With all the other fun stuff you have in there mixed in.

    Actually, the difference between not using FF at all and doing it well is pretty small. It's a candidate for ignoring because if you use it before BW it's a loss. Aftre re-reading icy-veins on BW, I may remove it entirely from my rotation. (http://www.icy-veins.com/beast-maste...owns-abilities for reference)

    Also, you're missing Cobra Shot to keep up your sting. Misdirect before pre-pot...

  18. #78
    Brewmaster Cyph3r's Avatar
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    The 2 posts above pretty clearly indicate the problem. And like poundsign said, while those of us that have been playing for ever can figure this stuff out and make it work, newer or much more casual players feel overwhelmed and lost. Even I feel out of control of the character at times, and I've probably spent too much of my life playing Hunters, to be honest. That's not good; I don't like feeling like I don't have a handle on my own character, because I've lost track of a cooldown, or I'm not sure which of the 2 that are available I should use, or whatever.

    And I'll keep saying this until I'm blue in the face: more buttons does NOT equal more skill required. It's not about having lots of things you can do, but rather what those things actually DO, and how you make best use of them that demonstrates skill. As BM, we have up to 6 abilities that do direct damage that can be used rotationally, up to 3 dots that have to be maintained or used on cooldown, and up to 3 dps cooldowns. That doesn't include traps by the way, and all of that has to be properly prioritized, stacked, not stacked, etc. Then throw in readiness, and double it. Then throw in various other combat utility we have such as self heals, targeted heals, CCs (again, up to 5), dispells, debuffs, and defensive cooldowns. It's just too much.
    - The Hunter's Creed -
    "This is my pet. There are many others like him, but this one is mine. He is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I master my life.
    My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyph3r View Post
    The 2 posts above pretty clearly indicate the problem. And like poundsign said, while those of us that have been playing for ever can figure this stuff out and make it work, newer or much more casual players feel overwhelmed and lost. Even I feel out of control of the character at times, and I've probably spent too much of my life playing Hunters, to be honest. That's not good; I don't like feeling like I don't have a handle on my own character, because I've lost track of a cooldown, or I'm not sure which of the 2 that are available I should use, or whatever.

    And I'll keep saying this until I'm blue in the face: more buttons does NOT equal more skill required. It's not about having lots of things you can do, but rather what those things actually DO, and how you make best use of them that demonstrates skill. As BM, we have up to 6 abilities that do direct damage that can be used rotationally, up to 3 dots that have to be maintained or used on cooldown, and up to 3 dps cooldowns. That doesn't include traps by the way, and all of that has to be properly prioritized, stacked, not stacked, etc. Then throw in readiness, and double it. Then throw in various other combat utility we have such as self heals, targeted heals, CCs (again, up to 5), dispells, debuffs, and defensive cooldowns. It's just too much.

    i like the part where you say more buttons does not equal more skill

    but then you break down exactly how much potential micromanagement goes into utilizing all the new buttons/skills we got which i would argue requires some amount of skill

    not exactly sure what your rant in the second paragraph was for :S

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Crooklyn View Post
    i like the part where you say more buttons does not equal more skill

    but then you break down exactly how much potential micromanagement goes into utilizing all the new buttons/skills we got which i would argue requires some amount of skill

    not exactly sure what your rant in the second paragraph was for :S
    IU'd agree it does require a lot more skill. But the problem is that what it really turns into is that you eliminate the ability for a majority of the people to be able to perform marginally well that used to do so. Increasing skill should certainly have increasing returns, but what you have now isn't as much fun, IMO.

    One of the larger problems I haven't seen addressed is that in an attempt to get the most out of hunter (specifically BM, I can't speak for the other specs because I have never been interested in them), players tend to be missing out on the encounters themselves. This includes really not seeing the encounter but managing to avoid all the things they should be (at best) and missing the encounter and focusing on DPS so hard they're in the fire the whole time.

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