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  1. #1

    Anyone else wish we didn't have Glaive Toss and Dire Beast?

    Honestly, all of these new talents of ours are just bloating our rotations and keybinds. I'm shocked that they expect our class to weave in an extra 15 second cooldown talent and a 30 secnod cooldown talent into our normal rotations. Especially when our signature abilities have such short cooldowns and have to be managed correctly. I just see no other class in the game that has so many talents in their trees that they are forced to use in their rotations, with such short cooldowns on them.

    Even Murder of Crows screws our rotations. The 60 second focus cost is horrible. No one can dispute that. It forces us to blow Rapid Fire just to regain the focus back and start our actual rotations. Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Explosive Shot and Glaive Toss already cost 100 focus for us, and that's just the beginning of Survival's rotation. Murder of Crows should cost 0 focus to use, plain and simple.

    The biggest issue with these talents are that they're BALANCING our damage around them. Crows + Dire Beast + Glaive Toss equates to a large chunk of our total damage in PvE. I would rather that damage be re-allocated to our actual rotational abilities. I'd like Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot to hit hard. Steady Shot could have its damage tripled and it would still only tickle players in PvP. Explosive Shot is very weak when compared to what it did in Dragon Soul, and its useless in PvP against resilience.


    I feel bad for the seven people that are going to play Marksmanship in 5.1 and have to spend 60 focus on Murder of Crows during their Careful Aim phase.


    TL;DR - These talents suck. They bloat our rotations and make the specs un-fun to play. They take away damage that we'd otherwise have in our normal abilities, thus really making it difficult for them to give us decent PvP burst.

  2. #2
    I no longer play a hunter because of those talents, so yes, agreed fully. That being said, I still want the talents to be useful.
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  3. #3
    The Patient Neteyes's Avatar
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    Simple fix, use Fervor instead of Dire Beast as SV and as for BM wait with using Crows until you get BW up.

    As for the new abilities, I like having more buttons to push and not just a rotation you could manage with a castsequence macro.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    Glave toss is at least usefull on some bosses. Dire beast is meh totaly but...its best dps right now. I would prefer if they changed some talets that are passive.

  5. #5
    Would prefer it if they got rid of serpent sting and rapid fire. Hunters have too many keybinds and I don't think those 2 abilities would be missed if our dps was rebalanced to compensate.

    Not a huge fan of dire beast either though.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Neteyes View Post
    Simple fix, use Fervor instead of Dire Beast as SV and as for BM wait with using Crows until you get BW up.

    As for the new abilities, I like having more buttons to push and not just a rotation you could manage with a castsequence macro.
    That's not a fix for his issue since Fervor has the same cooldown as Dire beast and well AMoC does not benefit from BW.

  7. #7
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    AMoC's focus cost is reduced by BW, but yeah.

    I like it, tbh. Hunters were ridiculously easy to play pre-MoP. I think it puts a higher skillcap on the class. And yes, when you need 60 focus for an AMoC, you have to plan, and edge your bar closer to capping focus without capping focus in order to maximize your DPS. I think that's a good thing.

    Of course, in context, your point about balance stands. We are balanced around these abilities, and it seems like other classes are balanced around fewer. I'm finally getting around to gearing up my spriest, and he has 2 DoTs he keeps track of, an 8s CD ability, a 16s CD ability (effectively the CD of DP if you get MBs off at 0, 8, and 16s), and a filler spell. Plus an execute below 20% which exactly mirrors KS (except it hits harder, lol and gives you a shadow orb to make DPs come faster). And a 30s lvl 90 talent that isn't even rotationally useful on single target iirc. And a 1 minute pet that you summon and that's it. I suppose you can spec into Light in the Darkness and have Surge of Darkness procs, leading you to press one more button, but it's an instant cast, non-resource using proc of Mind Spike.

    In fact, every non-energy/focus class I play seems to be easy because they don't have to worry about resource management, and every other energy class (rogues/ferals/monks) have high enough energy costs on their ability and no "filler spell" to regen it that they actually seem to use less GCDs than they have.

  8. #8
    I like the new abilities and I'm not having much trouble with the rotations, maybe your keybind setup needs reworked? I agree that a murder of crows costs way too much though and the focus needs to be atleast halved in cost if not completely removed. Dire Beast would be cooler if it summoned pets from our stable or faction based pets of our choosing, like some glyphs that give us evil, good or neutral dire beasts instead of being zone based.

    I think our signature abilities can use a damage buff though to increase dps since we are a bit low at single target at the moment and according to zeherah's survival does more dps using glaive toss before explosive shot in the priority list, that just doesn't seem right to me.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulosio View Post
    Would prefer it if they got rid of serpent sting and rapid fire. Hunters have too many keybinds and I don't think those 2 abilities would be missed if our dps was rebalanced to compensate.

    Not a huge fan of dire beast either though.
    I wonder how Survival+Serpent Spread+Improved Serpent Sting will be compensated.

    ---

    A Murder of Crows may cost 60 focus, but it's the best talent single target.

    True about Explosive Shot hitting slightly weak. T14 2 set should help out quite a bit.

    Dire Beast seems kind of annoying, but it you know how to macro is right, you should forget it's even there. Same for Glaive Toss.
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  10. #10
    Hunters have always had bloated key binds.
    In PvP it's worse when you take into consideration your defensive and pet skill cooldowns.

    In my opinion there's steeper learning curve to playing a hunter well than other classes.
    Last edited by kiingy; 2013-03-04 at 03:58 AM.

  11. #11
    The Patient
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    Well, I agree with you that Amoc is difficult to fit into our rotation. I have used it in all three speccs and found it to fit best into the MM "rotation". Especially outside of careful aim. In PvP Amoc sucks, but I think that is fine. BS should also have its uses ;-)

    Dire beast is fine. It is stronger single target but bad in multy target scenarios. Especially regarding the fact that Toth is pretty close dps wise for survival(Which is mostly played in scenarios with several targets where Toth easily outshines dire beast).

    Eventhough I don't mind exchanging an arcane shot with gt in my rotation, I don't understand why Blizzard choose to make GT the best choice for both single and multy target fights. Talents should be situational and GT at its current state clearly is not(PvE).

    How ever, even though I see room for improvement I enjoy playing hunter.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    That's not a fix for his issue since Fervor has the same cooldown as Dire beast
    But Fervor can be macroed into another ability, or could last time I touched my hunter.

  13. #13
    totally agree, idk about you guys, but i don't have 12 fingers on each hand and so many low damage abilities pisses me off

  14. #14
    I actually quite like it. make's it harder to get to your the classes full dmg potential. and I didn't by the razor naga in vain ^^
    hunter has often been quite easy to play. playing BM is actually quite demanding. I like.
    and come on DB is cool! an additional pet visually, a good dmg dot practically, and regens some focus, why would we not want that? ^^

  15. #15
    I think it's a problem but I don't think it will be addressed anytime soon. While it is a problem, it gives a big edge over the great players as well which I think is a step in the right direction. I know for myself trying to learn heroic spirit kings and keep my rotation was a big pain. Doing 97k on Gara'jal and then struggling to stay around 75k on the fourth spirit king while doing the same rotation but paying attention to shields, flankings, shadow orbs, annihilates, MCs, etc. was incredibly taxing, yet at the same time I know that there is a lot of room for improvement. It's the first time the game has felt challenging on an individual level in quite some time. I think more people, myself included, will start enjoying it more when they get more used to it and the frustration from not doing it incredibly well starts to go away either from doing it incredibly well or knowing that you may have done something else well.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral hiragana's Avatar
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    Agreed, i levelled my hunter first and im regretting it. Im not sure what it is about it but i really dont like them as much as i did in cata.

  17. #17
    I'm fine with Glaive Toss.

    I think Dire Beast would be better if it was just a proc with a 25 second ICD. It gets one button off our rotation but keeps the functionality identical.

    I have a huge problem with the design of AMoC resulting from the redesign of Lynx Rush. They basically fill the exact same role now. A lot of things could be done to separate AMoC from LR. How about a lower focus cost/damage and remove the CD? It now becomes an option for multi-target fights, while LR would be preferred for single target.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Cyph3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremypwnz View Post
    Dire Beast seems kind of annoying, but it you know how to macro is right, you should forget it's even there. Same for Glaive Toss.
    Comments like this only reinforce the argument that we have too many buttons. We shouldn't have to macro anything just to make it manageable.

    The main problem I have with the new active talents is that they're basically all redundant. Dire beast is the weird standout here, since it's in a tier that focuses on giving us a new way to regen focus (which I like), yet it's the only one that does extra damage while returning focus, making it the clear choice for raw damage output, and I think that's wrong. As for the others, everything in the 90 tier is just aoe with a little bit of utility tacked on (that no one ever uses these spells for). We already have aoe. Several forms in fact, why did we need another? There's just several tiers in the tree where it feels like they didn't know what else to do, and gave us these things for the sake of giving us shiny new toys, not because we actually lacked anything.

    I've been saying for years that the Hunter arsenal is pretty much full, the only real hole we had was a reliable self heal, which we finally got this time, sort of. This expansion has given us ability bloat, bad. I don't think it would be too hard to fix, though it would require some significant changes.

    1. Remove readiness. We'll be fine without it, and it would vastly simplify a lot of things
    2. Roll the healing debuff from widow venom into serpent sting, and get rid of that button. I still can't believe this hasn't happened yet.
    3. Redesign the entire level 90 tier to augment our existing aoe in new ways. Use it to Buff multi-shot and explosive trap. Of course that's assuming that the tier is meant to improve our aoe. It if was just meant to be "fun stuff at level 90", well then pretty much anything goes as long as it doesn't add more buttons.
    4. Reintroduce sniper training to counterbalance our new on the move dps
    5. At least consider removing rapid fire. It serves the same purpose as several other abilities (a raw dps cooldown). If stampede is meant to be our big burst dps CD, do we still need this? (personally I'm not convinced we even need stampede, but it does carry more "wow" factor).
    6. Finally, rebalance the direct damage of our rotational abilities to compensate for the above changes.

    We've become too reliant on cooldowns, simply because we have so many, and we can string most of them together for some pretty serious burst. This is of course more of an issue with pvp than pve, but that's old news, and pve rotations will always suffer at the hands of pvp. Fewer CDs means each one can be stronger, and of course it means using them more carefully, especially without readiness there to bail you out of a bad choice. More complexity does not equal more depth, just as simple doesn't have to mean shallow. I don't just want lots of buttons to push, I want meaningful buttons to push, and only a handful of those. I want to be able to focus on the fight, not on my ability timers, and that goes for pve and pvp. It's so frustrating sometimes how often Hunter design rides just on the edge of perfection; like a basketball forever circling the rim but never falling through.
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  19. #19
    The issue is, a lot of the new abilities for hunters are straight up hit the button and damage happens abilities. Other classes CDs provide utility and other things that don't just provide pure flat damage.

  20. #20
    wow, so long have we craved for real damag cooldowns, now we get some people start crying about to many... can't believe it.
    come on, as SV or MM we have Rapidfire, Stampede and Readiness (which is principaly just another Rapidfire in terms of damage Cooldowns) it's not that complicated!
    okey, BM has a slightly harder time with managing BW aswell, but hell thats cool! I love having some burst at last!
    Rapid fire has always been a relativly bad CD, because hunters don't profit that much from haste (hence a little bit of focus regen aswell), now we have some significant and reliable burst at last!
    and by the significant burst I ony mean BM's. SV/MM's is still not that great

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