Anyone else wish we didn't have Glaive Toss and Dire Beast?

[Cyph3r]

Well, coming from my main perspective which is a rogue perspective:

Be happy, at least you got something new. You didn't get all your old talents/base spells renamed/"revamped"(If you can even call it that) and placed as a """talent""" that is barely useful and doesn't increase your dps at all. As a hunter you get at least 3 talents to increase your dps!

Except they don't really increase our dps, because we were balanced around their use. Take a look at overall Hunter damage to see that all these new abilities did NOT rocket us to the top of the charts. All they did was complicate things, because we have to use them, and use them well, just to do competitive damage.

I was quick reading and spoted something i liked.

I also laugh when people mention "Rapid Fire" is a cd, because i find it... lacking... at least compared with other classes cds. The idea of BW among all specs could be very sweet, but i guess that will never happen (though warriors have "Avatar" as a talent, which is somewhat similar as BW, maybe even a bit better, except for its longer CD).

BW really is a sticky situation from a design standpoint. It's powerful enough to qualify as something that all Hunters should have access to, but it really doesn't fit the theme of the other 2 specs. So the options are; Make it a talent (or just baseline) giving all 3 specs access, and balls to "theme"; give the other 2 specs comparable cooldowns, which is just more buttons; or just accept that one of the things that makes BM unique is this big damage/utility CD (this is the current model).

[Deleted]

I use TOTH because i don't want to use an extra button of dire beast
I use lynx rush because i hate the AMOC 60 focus cost and the other option is yet another 20s cd button
I macro Glaive toss so that i don't have another rotational button that does very little over the normal buttons i already have

I know its not optimal and other options are better dps, but it's the only way i can play my SV hunter since i hate Beast Mastery and MM is just terribad viability.
If i didnt do the 3 options above, i would've rerolled by now.

Also:
- Remove readiness and compensate its damage on the other abilities damage
- Remove rapid fire and compensate by lowering stampede CD by half

Just these 2 things would make the class much more streamlined.

[Neteyes]

I use TOTH because i don't want to use an extra button of dire beast
I use lynx rush because i hate the AMOC 60 focus cost and the other option is yet another 20s cd button
I macro Glaive toss so that i don't have another rotational button that does very little over the normal buttons i already have

I know its not optimal and other options are better dps, but it's the only way i can play my SV hunter since i hate Beast Mastery and MM is just terribad viability.
If i didnt do the 3 options above, i would've rerolled by now.

Also:
- Remove readiness and compensate its damage on the other abilities damage
- Remove rapid fire and compensate by lowering stampede CD by half

Just these 2 things would make the class much more streamlined.

Basically you want to play with a castsequence macro, right?

[Penguintamer]

Except they don't really increase our dps, because we were balanced around their use. Take a look at overall Hunter damage to see that all these new abilities did NOT rocket us to the top of the charts. All they did was complicate things, because we have to use them, and use them well, just to do competitive damage.



BW really is a sticky situation from a design standpoint. It's powerful enough to qualify as something that all Hunters should have access to, but it really doesn't fit the theme of the other 2 specs. So the options are; Make it a talent (or just baseline) giving all 3 specs access, and balls to "theme"; give the other 2 specs comparable cooldowns, which is just more buttons; or just accept that one of the things that makes BM unique is this big damage/utility CD (this is the current model).

Pretty much. The 'new abilities' didn't give us anymore damage. They stole damage from Explosive Shot, Chimera Shot, Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, and Cobra Shot. That's all they did. And it royally fucked any and all burst potential for Marksmanship or Survival. Explosive Shot hits so ridiculously low on resilience that it wouldn't even be considered decent damage if it hit that way on Cataclysm health pools.

Our damage needs to be re-allocated to our shots. Fuck all these new talents ruining PvP potential and taking away damage from other things. Fires Mages are one of the top specs right now and it is unbelievably easy. Meanwhile, all 3 hunter specs are over-bloated with cooldowns and buttons, all the damage is spread-thin, and they still do less damage than the fire mage.

And that's the problem.

[Tokas]

it blows my mind how can anyone like the extra buttons
you say it's more engaging and shit, i say boss fights have to be engaging, not a fucking rotation
another reason i think this is stupid, is that every ability now deals low damage

[Tehstool]

it blows my mind how can anyone like the extra buttons
you say it's more engaging and shit, i say boss fights have to be engaging, not a fucking rotation
another reason i think this is stupid, is that every ability now deals low damage

Why do you have to go into every thread and complain about hunters?

[Tokas]

Why do you have to go into every thread and complain about hunters?

or why do some players need to create similar topics, better question?

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

it blows my mind how can anyone like the extra buttons
you say it's more engaging and shit, i say boss fights have to be engaging, not a fucking rotation
another reason i think this is stupid, is that every ability now deals low damage

you know, it needs a balance. you would also like extra buttons, if you had only one button to press. you maybe think it's to much now.
I think its still manageable. at least for PvE, PvP it does look quite bad actually.

and as a hunter, our abilities did traditionally not do much damage, because we have so much passiv stuff going on. pet auto/claw, our autoshot, serpent dot, explotrap/black arrow... and as SV/BM our main spells are on a 6sec CD. to low to do huge damage. its better for MM with aimed/CS (at least we will maybe get to see high numbers later on in the xpac with better weaps). if you want big crits, go and take Powershot. has a 30% hidden misschance though xDD

[Tokas]

has a 30% hidden misschance though xDD

srsly? xD never used it, but it seems weird that it's not on tooltip?

[Deleted]

Nah don't mind more short cds, but readiness feels weird as 5 min and baseline

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

srsly? xD never used it, but it seems weird that it's not on tooltip?

nä what I want to say, that the ability is still a bit buggy. can happen that you fire of the shot, lose the focus, triggering the CD, but no damage dealt.
has happend to me often killing the vermins on the farm, I think it's not that bad in a raid environment

[Deleted]

Comments like this only reinforce the argument that we have too many buttons. We shouldn't have to macro anything just to make it manageable.

The main problem I have with the new active talents is that they're basically all redundant. Dire beast is the weird standout here, since it's in a tier that focuses on giving us a new way to regen focus (which I like), yet it's the only one that does extra damage while returning focus, making it the clear choice for raw damage output, and I think that's wrong. As for the others, everything in the 90 tier is just aoe with a little bit of utility tacked on (that no one ever uses these spells for). We already have aoe. Several forms in fact, why did we need another? There's just several tiers in the tree where it feels like they didn't know what else to do, and gave us these things for the sake of giving us shiny new toys, not because we actually lacked anything.

I've been saying for years that the Hunter arsenal is pretty much full, the only real hole we had was a reliable self heal, which we finally got this time, sort of. This expansion has given us ability bloat, bad. I don't think it would be too hard to fix, though it would require some significant changes.

1. Remove readiness. We'll be fine without it, and it would vastly simplify a lot of things
2. Roll the healing debuff from widow venom into serpent sting, and get rid of that button. I still can't believe this hasn't happened yet.
3. Redesign the entire level 90 tier to augment our existing aoe in new ways. Use it to Buff multi-shot and explosive trap. Of course that's assuming that the tier is meant to improve our aoe. It if was just meant to be "fun stuff at level 90", well then pretty much anything goes as long as it doesn't add more buttons.
4. Reintroduce sniper training to counterbalance our new on the move dps
5. At least consider removing rapid fire. It serves the same purpose as several other abilities (a raw dps cooldown). If stampede is meant to be our big burst dps CD, do we still need this? (personally I'm not convinced we even need stampede, but it does carry more "wow" factor).
6. Finally, rebalance the direct damage of our rotational abilities to compensate for the above changes.

We've become too reliant on cooldowns, simply because we have so many, and we can string most of them together for some pretty serious burst. This is of course more of an issue with pvp than pve, but that's old news, and pve rotations will always suffer at the hands of pvp. Fewer CDs means each one can be stronger, and of course it means using them more carefully, especially without readiness there to bail you out of a bad choice. More complexity does not equal more depth, just as simple doesn't have to mean shallow. I don't just want lots of buttons to push, I want meaningful buttons to push, and only a handful of those. I want to be able to focus on the fight, not on my ability timers, and that goes for pve and pvp. It's so frustrating sometimes how often Hunter design rides just on the edge of perfection; like a basketball forever circling the rim but never falling through.

Well now your just looking from a PvE side of view. You want to redesign the talents to only work for either AOE or increase another AOE dmg , like a buff. How would the hunters that PvP like that? That all the stuff Blizzard got to take in consideration before they could implent something. Think about that before posting

Now on topic.

The crows need their focus cost reduced , to even be worth using in PvP and not to be a big focus dumb in PvE. The CD is abit to long and should be 1min ( it is 2 right ? haven't checked it since 5.0.5 )

The argument on having to many button , i agree. The poster i just quoted got a great idea for the healing reduce buff! It should be within the serpet sting spel , it's a stupid design to use serpet sting for DMG and directly after you use widow vennom only to see it got it 8 sec dureration.
This would take away 1 spell wich in general PvErs don't really need.

For other spells , i have no clue. Can't figure anything on that atm.

[Viking]

There's definite bloat going on with Hunters but I still wouldn't want any of the shitty mage talents. lol

[Deepfriedegg]

I would actually like if Dire Beast didnt do any damage on its own but instead leave a debuff on target which would then take more damage from certain (signature) shots - that is actually my own idea and I think it is pretty cool (also like that BM could actually do more damage than his pet, beast, stampede and crows
Another idea - which is not mine - would be to turn DB into proc, such as Thrill of the Hunt - but that would take decision/action away from the hunter.

---------- Post added 2012-12-12 at 12:34 PM ----------

The crows need their focus cost reduced , to even be worth using in PvP and not to be a big focus dumb in PvE. The CD is abit to long and should be 1min ( it is 2 right ? haven't checked it since 5.0.5 )

Correct, it is 2 minutes, but there is thing with its CD being halved to 1 minute if used on target below 20%. In fact, there are not that many fights where this actually as an advantage. On single target it requires 1:30m of sub 20% to take full advantage of it. It also requires that the sub 20% target lives at least for 30 seconds to take full advantage. Typically it only helps on fights such as Protectors or Spirit Kings - i.e. fights with multiple large HP mobs that dont share their HP AND dont die at roughly ther same time

[Nemesis003]

make dire beast a passive... make it chance on pet hit for your pet to call another "ally" to the battle 15 second duration 25 sec icd... then the only "extra" button is fervor and hardly anyone uses that...

[Deleted]

I think its awesome managing so many buttons cause delaying anything is a dps loss which separates the shitters from the good players.

Unlike cata you can outdps other hunters easily with better gear just by doing your rotation smoother.

[Windthorn]

I didn't like all the new buttons to press at the start, after all you get comfortable with your spec and rotation through an expansion and boom a new expansion comes and you have to start changing it again, look at new abilites, when to use them. Personally I love the hunter rotation now, BM, Surv are pretty smooth, I think the cost of Glaives is just fine and with some clever positioning in multi add situations, you can edge that bit more dps. I'm glad that we aren't like for example mages ... anyone played arcane recently or even fire? Hunters a fun, those complaining just need to get use to the new abilities. Sure as hell don't complain about our level 90 abilities, with gear choosing between glaives and barrage may be difficult and Powershot just needs tweaking. Compare them to mage level 90 abilities and we really did get the better deal. You just need to get use to the changes and soon enough you'll find that playing a hunter is very nice now, particularly since the removal of AotF.

[Caribald]

I think hunters are a lot better off with their talents than many other classes. I don't have a problem with the amount of keybinds (I use a Naga though)

[Tokas]

I think its awesome managing so many buttons cause delaying anything is a dps loss which separates the shitters from the good players.

Unlike cata you can outdps other hunters easily with better gear just by doing your rotation smoother.

remind me when did hunters delayed anything? no gaps in rotation, even prior mop

[Deleted]

i use toth..since nobody even mentioned here i was wondering if it is a great dps loss compared to dire beast.