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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    His points are valid. All you're doing is dropping totems and recalling and using healing rain with the odd riptide. In hard fights where you're actually required to cast more healing abilities you're going to get stomped.
    The thing is did you think that by using that sort of style of healing for basically free, it frees up the mana AND lessons healing required to allow you to use more healing abilities for the hard fights? I'm easily doing 80k hps+ on the healing intensive normal mode fights right now. I'm confused as to how exactly you think that this sort of hps will suddenly get me killed in heroics and not cut it... I'm looking at heroic logs, and hpswise I'm right on par for whats needed for all of them.

    This is the main point. Even to the person below me whos talking about my stats and how that sort of stats is working for me. It's NOT ABOUT THE STATS. Thats my whole point in this. It's about what you do, and when you do it. Tossing out massive amounts of CH's and HS's when instead you can just HST and HW and do the same hps for free mana. thats the frustrating part, you're saying when I need to use real healing spells I'll fall flat. i'm saying I AM using real healing spells, and AM NOT falling flat, as evident by things like world #4 Elgalon. And those exact same healing techniques are as fully usable and powerful in any content, normal or heroic. A heal is a heal. I'm just not healing in a style you seem to consider to be shammy enough. Or something, I don't know what your point is exactly.

    Oh and Shammyspice, I use int food and flasks. My fixed spirit value is 5k on every fight. Yes you can factor in trinket procs, etc. But then EVERY shaman can do the same. So it's a moot point, we're all equal in that regard.

  2. #22
    Dreadlord zshikara's Avatar
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    I found this thread to be very informative. I personally (for some reason) didn't know that HR was effected by UE. I am going to have to start doing that combo more often.

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Normal raids are still progress content for the MAJORITY of the guilds out there so probably this fact make jynus' way even stronger. He is simply saying that normals can be done with less than 9k spirit (but I'd say it really depends on raid comp).

    Jynus, you have to consider gear aswell and not only spirit. I mean, I have 4.8k spirit on my shammy (link in sig) but I have 440 ilvl while you have 480 ilvl... When MSV was new usually you were running it with 460ish gear and even if you still had 5k spirit the difference with your actual gear would make a big difference...

    Anyway I agree with you but you have to consider that heroics are way harder than normals and probably 5k spirit wouldn't be enough.
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  4. #24
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    I can see how a low-spirit setup can work really well in a 25-man setting. I notice too that my mana consumption is rather moderate when I do raid healing with lots of UE-HR, RT, HW and free HSTs. No biggie really. Major hps for barely any mana. Heck, if I were still progress-raiding on 25-man, I'd try it out like that and would most likely love it too.

    But for tank-healing involving a lot of single-target heals and the occasional downright GHW spam which is my task extremely often (thank you, Blizzard, for giving me UF!), especially in encounters that are being 2-healed, I already notice it painfully when using an int flask instead of my usual spirit one.

    Two or three weeks ago, I tried with an int flask and had even swapped out my 2 480 spirit gems for int ones. I felt the difference. I hadn't expected to feel it that clearly.

    So, the point that I want to make is: You can't tell people that doing x is better than doing y. Because you might be raiding 25-man, and they're doing 10-man. They might be on a different difficulty setting (not everyone who is raiding heroic stuff is 'pro'; some people reroll or are new at raiding but good players who just seek information to further improve, etc.). You might get 6-9 mana tides (some of which from high-spirit shamans even), an innervate, a couple of hymns, etc. during an 8-minute fight that they're not getting, having to rely on their own 2-3 tides during that timeframe. They might be doing tank-healing while you're focusing on blanketing the raid (the latter being way less mana-intense and yet producing very very high hps - at least for me), etc etc.

    Now, in this setting, you're doing absolutely the right thing. You're benefitting from all mana CDs you can get, thus reducing the need to boost your own mana regeneration, thus increasing your output stats is the optimal thing to do.

    All these things have a huge impact on the direction that you need to shift your stats. People need to test it for themselves. Reforge in one direction, gem in one direction... see how it works, if you feel comfortable. If you're not quite feeling fine with it, try something else. As soon as you have found 'your' setup, you'll know. I do that every expansion because of changes made to the class. Don't be afraid to waste some gold on all that reforging and regemming. Don't be afraid to walk down a road that people tell you not to take, because nobody is in your shoes and has the exact same raid that you have. When people called the Riptide glyph mandatory, for example, I said "Bah, this thing sucks" and didn't use it, having already tried using it on beta raiding. I did however use it for Blade Lord Ta'yak, and it was good there. Other than that, I never wanted that glyph, no matter what people said.

    On some encounters, I noticed, it made no difference if I went mastery-heavy or crit-heavy, for example. Elegon was the one encounter where I thought that mastery might be 'my' stat for this expansion above everything else... the following week, I switched things around again because Stone Guard tank-healing made me tear out my hair and worked way better with heavy crit.

    So after exploring crit vs. mastery and spirit vs. int, I've arrived at where I am now and my shamy feels 'just right' to me.

    I love discussions like these because they give so much insight into what a complex spec resto really is and in how many different ways in can be played in various settings.

  5. #25
    Exactly. I can't see the low spirit working in 10mans at all and less so in 25man heroic. In 25man normal you can just throw down healing rain and free totems and do a decent amount of healing to make your place there worthwhile. But in 25man heroic and 10man (normal and heroic) there is a lot more individual irresponsibility on the healers and if you just use HR and totems you're not going to be doing enough.

    I use HST and UE Healing Rain on cooldown in 10man and although it does decent numbers and tops people up quickly if they get hit by a small AoE, there is a lot more individual responsibility in needing to cast other abilities quite often and a low spirit build would never work in my role.

  6. #26
    <joke>ITT: Discussion of tactical merits of a player using a previous expansion meta-gem.</joke>

    Also what makes or breaks that playstyle is the ability to dedicate extra global cooldowns for recalling totems, which is not a luxury provided by heroic encounters.
    Last edited by Blindlad; 2012-11-16 at 02:04 PM.
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Higgs/advanced

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    <joke>ITT: Discussion of tactical merits of a player using a previous expansion meta-gem.</joke>

    Also what makes or breaks that playstyle is the ability to dedicate extra global cooldowns for recalling totems, which is not a luxury provided by heroic encounters.
    Assuming you only recall HST, 1 GCD per 30 seconds probably isn't going to kill anyone and if in the case that you do need to cast heals at that time and can't spare the GCD then you're not going to suddenly oom because you had to pay for 1 totem.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Assuming you only recall HST, 1 GCD per 30 seconds probably isn't going to kill anyone and if in the case that you do need to cast heals at that time and can't spare the GCD then you're not going to suddenly oom because you had to pay for 1 totem.
    Don't forget to account for the fact that you usually have multiple totems up, especially if you're running Primal Elementalist (which imo is a superior talent, considering how closely unleash elements is tied with healing rain these days). Recalling them also destroys the other totems you have up (elementals/stone bulwark/grounding/tremor/earth grab/searing/capacitor all have very good pve applications) and destroy scripts don't refund you mana. In my opinion, totemic recall only provides a benefit in situations that are trivial anyway.
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
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  9. #29
    I think you're using the term "trivial" incorrectly...

    You can easily time it so your HST doesn't end while you have another useful totem up with the exception to Elementals. But since you only have 1-2 of them during a fight there would only be 1-2 instances there where you can't recall your HST. You could even potentially use Totemic Restoration with your elementals to get an extra use out of them in a fight.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I think you're using the term "trivial" incorrectly...

    You can easily time it so your HST doesn't end while you have another useful totem up with the exception to Elementals. But since you only have 1-2 of them during a fight there would only be 1-2 instances there where you can't recall your HST. You could even potentially use Totemic Restoration with your elementals to get an extra use out of them in a fight.
    This is where timing and toggling between paying attention to frames/healing and the remaining duration of our totems becomes a bit of an issue, for me anyway. If I had a second set of eyes, it would be quite easy to do this accurately, but on newer fights or fights that have a lot going on, paying attention to totem durations can take away from paying attention to healing the raid and boss abilities.

    I would definitely try to run this set up for farm content to optimize hps and practice the play style...but for progression content it seems like keeping close attention to totem durations all the time would just take away from paying attention to keeping people alive.

  11. #31
    All I am saying is that classing dropping healing rain hst and using cds as healing then you sir are very wrong. What happens when you hit grand empress where only the melee is stacked untill last phase. I am just saying that its great your raid group has this "exception" for you that means you can get away with what. I do what you do 100% of the time while rolling riptides on raid or spamming the tanks (helping the other healers.) You will never be able to do that with your regen. You will slowly watch raid members die.

    Basically if you in a raid with equal skill raiders and equal gear level you will get destroyed on any boss that requires more than healing rain hst and cds. How can you say otherwise cause that is all you do in logs. You even said it yourself that you do poor on certain bosses so whats the point. Yes you can get away with it in 25 man normal, do I think you can 2 heal bosses in 10 man normal no, do i think you can heal 25 heroic no, 10 heroic hell no. If you manage to 2 heal bosses and still do decent healing or do well in 25 heroic or 10 then send me a message and ill gladly admit that my opinion was wrong.

    Don't really want or care for an argument (these are just my opinions don't like them ignore them,) just think its stupid how you go against every other high logging shaman on the logic that "well i got ranked."

  12. #32
    The Patient pouca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    What about totemic recall triggering GCD? I really doubt "it's our best glyph by far"...
    You shouldn't doubt.
    It's difficult to compare apples and oranges and glyphs bring very different options, but zero cost for every totem during a fight (HTT would be the only one you use to the last second) is pretty good.
    At this moment I am timing totem dropping to have an optimal use of Totemic Recall, HST + SBT being totems that should/could be used on CD.
    Also you can drop a ST (searing totem) before fight and then you can recall it for a little mana gain after a while

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jynus View Post
    stick with heart. far as I have read it's better than windsong. (~50% uptime vs jades 20%) mana probs I would argue are more playstyle than lack of spirit. I'm making this point by only raiding with 5k spirit buffed and so far have had 0 mana probs on any fight. 10 or 25man. Are you using totemic recall glyph? that right there is about 100k mana saved on every fight.
    All the top Shamans I have checked are using this glyph so I jumped on the bandwagon a while back and <3 it.

  14. #34
    Use Jade Spirit. That 1650 INT proc is very nice, and the 750 extra spirit when below 25% is decent.

    As a resto shaman, you should be stacking spirit after getting a decent amount of mastery (60%ish).

    While Jynus may in fact be finding success running with 5k spirit, you do have to take into account that he's running a triple resto shaman 25M, and two of them have 10k spirit. Jynus would not, in my opinion, have much success in a 10 man setting with his current gear, but would do fairly well in 25s.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dglad/advanced
    Here's my armory. I raid 10 man, obviously, and have gone for a spirit heavy, 60% mastery, rest crit setup. We usually 3 heal progression fights, unless they're a DPS check (H Elegon mainly). Some glyphs/talents might be gimped from dicking around in LFR today, but the gear/stats should be pretty much right.

    Main point is, Jade Spirit is BiS for you. 200 spirit isn't that much. Hell, a gem is 320.

  15. #35
    I stopped going Spirit heavy once I got full epic and stack Intellect now, going full Crit makes up for the Regen I ditched, not getting so much oom anymore, atleast no more then some of my fellow healers and ask for a MT pop when I'm still at 70% and do nothing but spam healing spells. >.> I always believed at one point stacking full blue spirit gems will hurt you, which it did for me, I lacked a lot more sp then the others.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathina View Post
    I stopped going Spirit heavy once I got full epic and stack Intellect now, going full Crit makes up for the Regen I ditched, not getting so much oom anymore, atleast no more then some of my fellow healers and ask for a MT pop when I'm still at 70% and do nothing but spam healing spells. >.> I always believed at one point stacking full blue spirit gems will hurt you, which it did for me, I lacked a lot more sp then the others.
    10 or 25man? heroic or normal mode? logs and armory? There's no point making statements like that then not giving any source.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    10 or 25man? heroic or normal mode? logs and armory? There's no point making statements like that then not giving any source.
    Uhm, why should I point out logs/armory if I am just stating a own personal feedback to how I'm feeling regarding mana in my raids? I only said I thought I'd prob go full spirit in blue gems, but feeling how i'm using my spells and lacking 3k sp compaired to others I feel resurgence is stronger and helped me.

    Do I have to proof my love for my boyfriend too now? You weren't making sense. My feelings are my own, never said mine was logical to how you others play.
    Last edited by Cathina; 2012-11-20 at 11:49 AM.

  18. #38
    That would be like a H pally pointing out that they can beat monks on garalon but hide logs and never tell anyone...

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    That would be like a H pally pointing out that they can beat monks on garalon but hide logs and never tell anyone...
    Still you are making no sense... All I said I changed gems from spirit to intellect, if you are dumb to read and need proof

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Cathina/simple <-- my character, see no blue spirit gem!

    Can't believe people need proof for gems... -.-

  20. #40
    The Patient pouca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathina View Post
    Uhm, why should I point out logs/armory if I am just stating a own personal feedback to how I'm feeling regarding mana in my raids? I only said I thought I'd prob go full spirit in blue gems, but feeling how i'm using my spells and lacking 3k sp compaired to others I feel resurgence is stronger and helped me.

    Do I have to proof my love for my boyfriend too now? You weren't making sense. My feelings are my own, never said mine was logical to how you others play.
    You missed his point, like it has been said before different contexts, different solutions. The shaman with 5k spirit was ok because there is 2 other shamans in his roster.
    Your logs and armory can explain why you feel ok with less mana, because it's a general rule that shaman must reforge to sprit.

    It's very interresting to check other people experiences throught logs because it might change our point of view.

    Don't be paranoiac we believe you !

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