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  1. #81
    Apparently, GC still has not understood that rogues will look at respective EP of stats and stack the best ones. If crit is not desired this is not because of Cold Blood, this is just because it does not pay compared to other stats. And this guy is taking design decisions... /coughing
    If GC wants rogues to use more crit, then his team should provide additionnal mechanisms that rely on crit... I am not sure a Nobel price is mandatory to understand that.

  2. #82
    Coldblood was an excellent ability
    it was a guaranteed hit and thereby gave control over rng

    this is just another round of we don't know what the fuck we're doing

  3. #83
    they could rework mastery using crit to improve DPS like combat if you crit you have a chance you haste being increased by [insert nuber here] but i guess that wont happen there are so many ways to do stuff blizzard is just to lazy to make something up
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  4. #84
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Ok so are you hit capped? Because you could sit 1% under hit cap and for that last 1% hit to be worth anything, you would have to actually miss. That argument makes no sense...
    Actually, it does. I know many a person who sit just under hit cap (these people are melee) simply because the odds work out that they only really miss a single attack every hour or so, if not only once a raid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    If everything else is held constant, going from 98-99% and 99-100% are the same in that 1% more of your attacks will land for double damage. If I hit for 1k and have 98% crit chance, the expected value for my attack is .98 x 2k + .02 x 1k = 1980. If I hit for 1k and have 99% crit chance, the expected value for my attack is .99 x 2k + .01 x 1k = 1990. If I hit for 1k and have a 100% crit chance, my expected value is 2k. As you can see, each crit % I add gives me the same return as long as other things are held constant.
    This kind of maths is... Go ahead and plot the % change between each incremental increase, it will look something like this:

    (note: I might be reading this wrong, I just woke up.)

    EDIT: Yup, think I read that wrong.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2012-11-16 at 10:39 AM.
    I am the lucid dream
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Coldblood was an excellent ability
    it was a guaranteed hit and thereby gave control over rng

    this is just another round of we don't know what the fuck we're doing
    It was ONE crit, on a massive 3 minute cooldown.
    If Envenom happened to crit, and you got yourself two Venomous Wound procs, the cooldown was essentially replicated, and thus made useless. It provided us with nothing of use, neither in a long-term fight nor in short-bursts. It was an all-around useless ability, which had no- to very little impact on our damage output. Its loss is not one I will mourn.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    It was ONE crit, on a massive 3 minute cooldown.
    If Envenom happened to crit, and you got yourself two Venomous Wound procs, the cooldown was essentially replicated, and thus made useless. It provided us with nothing of use, neither in a long-term fight nor in short-bursts. It was an all-around useless ability, which had no- to very little impact on our damage output. Its loss is not one I will mourn.
    Pretty much this. I suspect GC went for that technically true but mostly irrelevant answer just so he wouldn't say "it was a fairly useless button for most people and so we removed it". People hate when their precious buttons are removed, for whatever reason.

    Swirly ball, anyone?
    Roll the bones!

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by gaz770 View Post
    I wanna cry, its was the most fun ability in the game.
    Warrior have this plus x3 better.
    szhdfdjh
    Fu blizzard for this I am really mad, i was hoping for this ability again.
    really ? you considered hitting a button once every 3 minutes to get 1 guaranteed evenom crit 'the most fun ability' ingame ?
    It was a crap ability imo , if you didn't use it no one would even notice since chances were pretty high that envenom would crit anyway regardless of using cold blood.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    It was ONE crit, on a massive 3 minute cooldown.
    If Envenom happened to crit, and you got yourself two Venomous Wound procs, the cooldown was essentially replicated, and thus made useless. It provided us with nothing of use, neither in a long-term fight nor in short-bursts. It was an all-around useless ability, which had no- to very little impact on our damage output. Its loss is not one I will mourn.
    it had more uses than that
    ie 100% 3 cp so you could 5cp stun instead of either waiting for energy regen or taking the lower 4cp stun duration
    nothing big but nice anyway

    especially since it wasn't gamebreaking i see no justification to remove it.

  9. #89
    I always felt it had a place for stability.

  10. #90
    I think I figured out how to explain this to Sesshou, and anyone else who is confused.

    Even though going from 15% crit to 20% crit gives you the same raw damage as going from 55% crit to 60% crit, that doesn't matter for this. It doesn't matter because:

    When Blizzard designs a class, they work in what the class has already. So for instance, if you have 0% baseline crit with mutilate, your dps will be designed with that in mind. If you have 15% baseline crit with mutilate, same thing. If you have 100% baseline crit with mutilate, same thing there too. In all of these cases, your average damage will be tuned- so as the base crit goes up, your moves are tuned down. This is so you produce the "expected" output.

    Then, the effect is as if you have a lot of baseline crit rating. A rogue with 0% crit gains more than a rogue doing equal dps but with 15% crit, from adding 5% crit. This is the same reason why once you have a lot of crit rating, crit becomes less useful- you still gain the same amount of dps from 1% crit that you did before, but you have more crit for some reason- gear, or baseline, it doesn't matter. Because you have more crit, you have greater rewards from the OTHER stats (no one seems confused about this point at least). This means that, say, haste rating is better. If you had all that crit because of gear, it makes logical sense for your EP values on all your OTHER stats to go up (agility, haste, expertise, hit, etc.), while the EP value on crit has held constant as your crit rating went up. I think everyone gets that. If you suddenly added 20% base crit to every rogue move, right now, rogue damage would go up, and rogue EP values for crit would stay the same. What else would go up would be the expected return on every other stat. Except if Blizzard added 20% crit to every move baseline, they would probably also nerf rogue damage so that the end result would be about the same. That would LOWER the EP values for all the stats- the values for haste, expertise, and agility would go down, but they just went up some. But the value for crit, which was constant this time, would go down. It never went up.


    So things that make crit a poor stat include:

    > When crits don't pay off much. For instance, poisons used to crit for 1.5X damage instead of 2X damage. Many specs gain resources when you crit, and assassination used to be one of them. Removing this removes the damage payoff of crits.
    > When you have a lot of baseline crit. For instance, if your mutilate crits 15% of the time, increasing that gives you as smaller percentile boost than if it started at 0%- and remember, you are designed around your baseline crit.
    > When you have moves that increase your critical strike by a percent. +50% crit hurts the value of critical strike, but +100% reduces it to 0 during the cooldown (new reck versus old reck). Cold blood is on this list, but there's absolutely no fucking way that one fucking envenom crit every three minutes hurt crit's EP value much at all, compared with 1.5X poisons, 15% base crit on mutilate, 30% base crit on backstab, and the removal of the +energy on crit effect.

    Things that make crit a good stat include:
    > When crits give you resources, or let you execute more moves, or different moves. Mages, for instance, gain benefits from crits that essentially let them upgrade their cycle into a crazy burn mode.
    > When crits give you a bigger return on critting. For instance, mutilate, backstab, sinister strike used to be able to crit for 2.2X instead of 2X. This is a pretty minor effect compared to something huge like 15% or 25% base crit, but still helped the stat a bit.


    So in summary: the other parts of the assassination tree were the problem with crit for assassination rogues. Crit was bad for combat too. The only spec crit was really good for was sub, and that was because the energy return on backstab crits was the equivalent over the course of a fight of a lesser version of what a fire mage got out of it. Cold Blood made barely a damned difference, as you could tell back in the day by unchecking that talent in Shadowcraft and watching your EP for crit not really wiggle. It was two crits over the course of a fight that ignored crit rating. That's nothing!

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    To be fair, the key word here is helped. Which it did, because when you give a spec an ability that guarantees a critical strike, the overall value of crit goes down for that spec.

    Now it's still a cop-out answer, but technically what he said is true.
    Except you could completely remove the 100% crit from Cold Blood and it would still be a dps increase, the energy burst is what really made it so nice.

  12. #92
    I stopped playing my rogue at the begining of Cata (after raiding during 6 years with my beloved rogue from MC to LK HM) but I still read the rogue forums...
    Actually, the Blizzard dev team set themselves in a very bad situation with the Assassination spec when they removed Focused Attack (Focused Attack which was giving 2 energy points when a physical attack was a crit).
    Why ?
    Just because there are two ways to get more crits per seconds : you can increase your crit rating but you will obtain the same effect if you increase haste ! And when you increase haste, you get more energy per second in addition and this is something crit does not give you anymore. Thanks to Focus Attack, crit and haste were somewhat similar. Maybe Blizzard devs did not like it and they just nerfed crit by removing Focus Attack to get both stats different enough. Unfortunately, in the process they did not give anything special to crit that haste could not provide and to really give some value to crit.
    As a result of this, haste will always take the value you try to give to crit unless you introduce a mechanism on which haste has no effect on.
    You can do this with one of the following mechanisms :
    - providing something only triggered on critical effects of a DOT which period is not changed by haste. As far as I know, Rupture is still not affected by haste but I am not sure of this for MoP and could not find confirmation of this anymore for 5.x.
    - providing a new mechanism only triggered on critical effects with a cooldown. The shorter this cooldown is the more haste will have an effect on it but if this cooldown is too big a very small amount of crit will give 100% up time so this mechanism will be extremely hard to tune.

    To me, the most efficient change I could find to increase the value of crit would be to give some energy regen when rupture has a critical effect. Haste, as far as I know, will not benefit from this. This would also address at least partially the energy starvation issue.
    Which amount of energy should the effect provide ? This question is not easy to answer and deserves quiet an amount of therocrafting. My feeling is that it should provide about 15 energy points because Rupture ticks only every 2 seconds or so (if I remember well). Yes, I really missed the 20 energy every two second mechanism we used to have and which was part of the rogue flavor and fun ( /hug Happyminti videos).
    Because the rogue damage mainly comes from auto attack and poisons, increasing the yellow damage by providing more energy will not increase DPS a lot but will definitely get the spec far less sleepy and idle. Maybe it is good after all, or maybe it is bad, this point needs to be discussed.
    This mechanism would also introduce irregularity in the amount of energy you get, allowing small energy burst when several procs happen in a row.

    These elements are just unpolished ideas and certainly not a solution for every QoL issues that have been appearing for the rogue class since GC and his team are destroying the game I loved so much years ago.
    Last edited by Ithildine; 2012-11-17 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Trying to improve my poor English quality.

  13. #93
    Above poster is near perfect in logic, except a single 100% crit attack isnt something that would ever make crit invaluable or valuable unless it was more usable like short CD kind of situation, instead the big thing was the beautiful amount of energy provided, the 100% crit was purely a nice addition not the tasty cake itself.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I think I figured out how to explain this to Sesshou, and anyone else who is confused.

    Even though going from 15% crit to 20% crit gives you the same raw damage as going from 55% crit to 60% crit, that doesn't matter for this.
    except we generate less combo points overall as ass/sub with the removal of our crit increases, something that is NOT made up for when our utility abilities all cost points.

  15. #95
    Field Marshal Carrastealth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    To be fair, the key word here is helped. Which it did, because when you give a spec an ability that guarantees a critical strike, the overall value of crit goes down for that spec.

    Now it's still a cop-out answer, but technically what he said is true.
    See when they bring up why they take "crit" moves away from rogues all you have to do is say "So then what about frost mages?"

    Because Frost mages can link 3 CC's with moves that have a 70-80% chance of critting and taking nearly all your life. Not to mention they have a glyph with which whenever they use an instant move causes other abilities to crit.

    Heck warriors have a move called Dragon's Breath which IN ITS DESCRIPTION SAYS "this attack will ALWAYS crit" what about making warriors not care?

    So the BS they say about not wanting to give rogues a move like cold blood which they have to set up while some other classes have more guaranteed crits at the press of a button it's hilarious to me.

    So when they say "well we don't want rogues to have auto crit moves" they should really answer the questions why they aren't worried about mages not caring about crit lol

    Rogues ONE move that can guarantee crit will make rogues not care, but frost mages chaining 3 crits in a row and nearly one shotting people is just fine because they have abilities that can increase their crit so near 70 to 80%. Rogues though? Nah we don't want them to not care... -_-

    because ONE crit every 3 minutes is loads more harmful than 3 crits whenever DR's are up?
    Last edited by Carrastealth; 2012-11-17 at 10:00 PM.

  16. #96
    I think that response was made by the mail boy or the janitor from blizzard who was surfing some porn sites on Ghostcrawler's laptop, cause i really can't understand anyone who ever played a rogue ( or especially someone who is involved in the rogue class development ) can come up with an answer like that .... but i could be wrong.....

    We are looking forward "VERY" excited to the changes that this guy will bring to the rogue class.....

    P.S.

    Fingers crossed for mana free stuns....

  17. #97
    In vanilla, I really liked cold blood because a crit eviscerate could be so much of someone's health.
    In BC, I sort of liked cold blood, but an eviscerate was less important.
    In LK, the ability was ok as part of a kill cycle, but it wasn't going to win you the day. It was no longer worth the cooldown.
    In Cata, the ability gave you energy, and as such was pretty pleasing again.

    I was hoping they would keep it going into a world where finishers are a little better again.


    It's worth pointing out, that this ability could have become similar to recklessness. When the game launched, there were three abilities like cold blood (combustion gave your next fire spell a 100% crit chance, and elemental mastery gave your next fire, frost, or nature spell a 100% crit chance). Cold Blood could have given you some burst energy and granted you 25% crit and 20% critical strike damage, for instance. Getting rid of it is lazy and uncool.

  18. #98
    Just to clarify, since there are a lot of posts in this thread getting it wrong, Cold Blood was reduced to a 2 min CD during Cataclysm, the same as Vendetta.

    Also, I always found the 25 energy it gave more useful than the crit. And the spec could DEFINITELY use an instant-energy ability at the moment. Monks and ferals both have one, yet no rogue spec does? Return Cold Blood, give it a 60-90 sec CD, have it restore 40-50 energy, and get rid of the crit. It's not much, but would help give Assa a bit more energy and flavour, both of which it severely lacks.

  19. #99
    The cata version was the shortest lived version though!

    But yea, I think it was 2 minutes for the last couple years. I mostly remember that the energy gain became the most notable part of it. The move was very nice in pvp, and I miss it there a whole lot.

  20. #100
    Actually, I was also using Cold Blood for the energy it was providing and certainly not to get a free critical effect, this part was just laughable... So is the explanation GC gave about the Cold Blood removal.
    Great job man, your a great designer ! Like newbies in the job, you still think you understand what you spent hours to design much better than the guys who have been using it for months ?.. ;-)

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