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  1. #421
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    I wont ever complain about dailies if they are fun and optional, the mop incarnations are neither.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I agree it never was but your not arguing with me about this. Your arguing with the developers who insist that valor was robbing the epic experience of loot from people. It's bullshit and it didn't need to be changed. All it is is just frustration. I don't care if people have better gear, I care about how rewarding the game is for me. It is no longer rewarding enough.
    No, you are saying that the upgrades offered are not as good as what other people have, so you dont want them. That is caring what other people get. I dont care what the developer said, they say lots of dumb stuff, why do YOU think an upgraded item is not an upgrade?
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I agree it never was but your not arguing with me about this. Your arguing with the developers who insist that valor was robbing the epic experience of loot from people. It's bullshit and it didn't need to be changed. All it is is just frustration. I don't care if people have better gear, I care about how rewarding the game is for me. It is no longer rewarding enough.
    You're completely missing the point of the blog post, in my opinion purposefully but I could be wrong. The point is that going to a Vendor to get 397 gear made raiding and getting 397 gear somewhat pointless.

    MoP doesn't have that problem because the highest raid tier has better gear than the valor vendors and in 5.1 we'll be UPGRADING our RAID GEAR. Raid gear is more important in MoP than valor gear

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Because trading in points for the same pair of shoulders I've had for a month isn't the same as getting a new pair of shoulders.
    So its just the name of the item that bums you out? Cause that's the only difference I can see.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    /facepalm

    you get loot from a boss you then upgrade that piece of loot from the boss it is now better... next tier you get a drop from a boss at that moment its equivalent to yours however it has two slots of upgrades wheras yours cannot be upgraded anymore therefore boss loot is still better every tier however valor makes that gear better.

    either your refusing to read or your trolling
    I'm not the one refusing to read. Go ahead and go back and read their watercooler thing on this. The upgrade system is in place so that you have something to do with points and don't complain about falling behind the rest of your raid group. It has nothing to do with the feeling of reward you get from the time you put into the game which they want to come from boss drops. In other words the upgrade system isn't going to feel as epic because by design it's not meant to.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    You're completely missing the point of the blog post, in my opinion purposefully but I could be wrong. The point is that going to a Vendor to get 397 gear made raiding and getting 397 gear somewhat pointless.

    MoP doesn't have that problem because the highest raid tier has better gear than the valor vendors and in 5.1 we'll be UPGRADING our RAID GEAR. Raid gear is more important in MoP than valor gear
    exactly hes using a quote about valor gear to try and say valor upgrading wont be rewarding yet ignoring the fact that there completely different things
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    It already has a gate. It doesn't need a second one albeit a rather flimsy one if someone is actually committed to doing dailies. The valor cap is currently not very easy to reach and it takes some serious time to do overall and serious commitment. Not very casual friendly. In fact if the gear is meant to be for casuals then it's a really bad way to do it.
    It doesn't take much time to valor cap at all. If it's taking you serious time and serious commitment you're not doing it right. I play 1-2 hours a night and I can easily cap my valor every week, not really even trying.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by tonyiommi View Post
    i'm not the one refusing to read. Go ahead and go back and read their watercooler thing on this. The upgrade system is in place so that you have something to do with points and don't complain about falling behind the rest of your raid group. It has nothing to do with the feeling of reward you get from the time you put into the game which they want to come from boss drops. In other words the upgrade system isn't going to feel as epic because by design it's not meant to.
    that quote isnt about valor upgrading its about valor gear @_@ we have pointed that out many times learn to read
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    You're completely missing the point of the blog post, in my opinion purposefully but I could be wrong. The point is that going to a Vendor to get 397 gear made raiding and getting 397 gear somewhat pointless.

    MoP doesn't have that problem because the highest raid tier has better gear than the valor vendors and in 5.1 we'll be UPGRADING our RAID GEAR. Raid gear is more important in MoP than valor gear
    That's the problem. Making valor gear take a back seat makes valor gear (and the points) less rewarding over all. For every one. Raider or not. Unless you do dailies. I don't consider that it made it pointless because frankly their was still 403 gear to be had in DS and even if I did get valor gear the valor guys didn't cover every spot and valor did have a cap. Their were still upgrades to be had in the raids regardless of what was offered by valor. In any event under the current cap raid drops would still be vastly more important because i'd be so limited by what I could buy anyway.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    that quote isnt about valor upgrading its about valor gear @_@ we have pointed that out many times learn to read
    He says valor. He doesn't say valor gear. That isn't really the point anyway. The valor system overall cannot be as epic as raid loot. So it takes a back seat and get stuffed and accept rng.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    It doesn't take much time to valor cap at all. If it's taking you serious time and serious commitment you're not doing it right. I play 1-2 hours a night and I can easily cap my valor every week, not really even trying.
    It takes far more time than in Cata. It takes an almost daily commitment. Not very casual friendly at all.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    So its just the name of the item that bums you out? Cause that's the only difference I can see.
    It's not really the name. It's hard to explain. It's like eating sushi made with mock crab. It still kinda tastes like crab and you still kinda get the whole crab vibe but when you've been used to having real crab all along this whole fake crab/item upgrade sytsem doesn't cut it. I just don't understand what was so wrong with buying valor gear in cataclysm or in wotlk or at the end of tbc.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-11-16 at 06:17 PM.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    It takes far more time than in Cata. It takes an almost daily commitment. Not very casual friendly at all.
    You are a very frustrating person to talk to. Yes it takes more time than in Cata. THAT'S THE POINT Capping valor in Cata was too quick. It might take a daily commitment but at most 1 hour a day. If you can't do that, or the equivalent of that, in a week then what do you really need valor for in the first place?

    And you think that because there was Heroic gear valor gear wasn't pointless? That's kind of a nonsensical argument. How much of the population was 8/8 in Heroic DS?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    That's the problem. Making valor gear take a back seat makes valor gear less rewarding over all. For every one. Raider or not. Unless you do dailies. I don't consider that it made it pointless because frankly their was still 403 gear to be had in DS and even if I did get valor gear the valor guys didn't cover every spot and valor did have a cap. Their were still upgrades to be had in the raids regardless of what was offered by valor. In any event under the current cap raid drops would still be vastly more important because i'd be so limited by what I could buy anyway.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:10 PM ----------



    He says valor. He doesn't say valor gear. That isn't really the point anyway. The valor system overall cannot be as epic as raid loot. So it takes a back seat and get stuffed and accept rng.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:11 PM ----------



    It takes far more time than in Cata. It takes an almost daily commitment. Not very casual friendly at all.
    okay im going to explain this one last time and if you dont get it this time your just flatout trolling. and again he was clearly talking about VALOR GEAR because obviously plrevious to mists there were no valor upgrades he was specifically talking about gear bought with valor.



    in this scenario i am a raider i am a heroic raider and i take my HEROIC RAID GEAR and VALOR UPGRADE IT. note I AM NOT GOING TO BUY VALOR GEAR NOR DOES VALOR UPGRADING REQUIRE DAILIES NOR DOES IT REQUIRE REP OF ANY KIND.

    i VALOR UPGRADE this heroic piece of gear twice it is now hugely more powerful then it was and for this patch it is the best item in its slot however it is out of upgrade slots and thus a piece of gear that is equivalent to it in stats would be vastly superior since it could be upgraded and this piece could not.

    so its the day of the big patch theres a brand new raid and me and my raiding buddies are decked out in our heroic raid gear from last tier and in the normal raid one of my pieces drop right now its about the same as my heroic piece from last tier however i am valor capped from last week so i can then upgrade this piece twice making it tons stronger then my old piece meaning boss drops are still more important despite the fact that i can upgrade my heroic raid gear with valor however for the patch i obtain it in valor is a huge boon of stats and is incredibly rewarding FOR THAT PATCH AND IN NO WAY DEVALUES GEAR FROM THE NEXT PATCH.

    if you dont understand now your just flatout trolling or an idiot
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  12. #432
    Each expansion has placed gear behind rep. The only exception was classic. They put patterns behind rep and then made you make your own gear. Not sure why Mists should be any different.

    http://www.wowhead.com/faction=1204/avengers-of-hyjal
    http://www.wowhead.com/news=176361/c...wards-and-more
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Northrend_reputation_rewards
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Burning_Crus...tation_rewards
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Classic_reputation_rewards

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    You are a very frustrating person to talk to. Yes it takes more time than in Cata. THAT'S THE POINT Capping valor in Cata was too quick. It might take a daily commitment but at most 1 hour a day. If you can't do that, or the equivalent of that, in a week then what do you really need valor for in the first place?
    I don't but frankly you have no place to tell me what or what I don't need in world of warcraft. It's arrogant to presume that you do but we'll put that aside for a minute. If the point was to make the game grindier then they succeeded. I doubt it will be a very attractive business model for them as people will leave. Being bored of content because you've exhausted all the available rewarding content (cata) versus being bored because content isn't rewarding enough or isn't what you enjoy doing is not very different. We'll see. He's already said compromise is in the works. Let's see what they come up with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GnomercyBeastmaster View Post
    Each expansion has placed gear behind rep. The only exception was classic. They put patterns behind rep and then made you make your own gear. Not sure why Mists should be any different.

    http://www.wowhead.com/faction=1204/avengers-of-hyjal
    http://www.wowhead.com/news=176361/c...wards-and-more
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Northrend_reputation_rewards
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Burning_Crus...tation_rewards
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Classic_reputation_rewards
    Most of which could be farmed in dungeons to some extent or another and none of it also required I spend valor.

  14. #434
    TommyIommi, Valor gear grind is not designed to be the end game. Heroic raid gear is the end game. If valor gear is YOUR end game then hey, you can get all that you want from dungeon valor.

    Furthermore you need to stop bitching that the system is unfair because you are a casual. I am a casual, I play 1 hour a day and 4-6 hours on fridays. I always valor cap by the end of friday night. I am ilevel 479 (Hopefully 480 tonight) and I am exalted with everyone except for shado pan which I am revered with and anglers which I dont give a flying flip about. I have bought 3 pieces of valor gear and the rest comes from LFR because my guild is only half ready for raids. On fridays I am the guilds dungeon guide and explain all the mechanics to content they have not finished yet. I put about 30 mins of time into doing dailies and 5 mins into my farm. I hate dailies with a passion but I do them because I set goals for myself and thats how I keep up with hardcore players.

    So don't sit there and whine like an adolescent that a casual can't get ahead in this game. By saturday I am valor capped and all my LFR content is consumed so from Saturday to Tuesday I am playing Xcom and soon GW2 because I am bored out of my friggen skull. If I can do it then anyone can.

    Stop blaming everyone else for your schedule, your guild requirements or your personal play preference.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    i also love it when people seem to think ghostcrawler is an evil wizard that controls everything blizzard does
    Ghostcrawler and his team started to work on WoW game systems in end of TBC. Work on game systems includes: class mechanics, monsters mechanics, currency mechanics, professions mechanics, stat mechanics and other kind of more obscure mechanics. WotLK less or more breathed due to previous game systems' designers (as most part of it was developed in middle of TBC), but from then it was quite obvious that game wasn't in right hands (biologist education and RTS mapmaking as only game-related activity in GC's portfolio was producing a lot of questions yet in late TBC).

    If you launch any preCata client (I don't promote private servers here), you will be surprised how rich game was. Now it all eroded to caps, dailies and arcade combat. Dislike of design decisions made by GC and his team is quite understandable.
    Each expansion has placed gear behind rep.
    "Every rabbit is an animal. Every cat is an animal. Conclusion: ever rabbit is cat."
    Example of your logic.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2012-11-16 at 06:24 PM.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    okay im going to explain this one last time and if you dont get it this time your just flatout trolling. and again he was clearly talking about VALOR GEAR because obviously plrevious to mists there were no valor upgrades he was specifically talking about gear bought with valor.



    in this scenario i am a raider i am a heroic raider and i take my HEROIC RAID GEAR and VALOR UPGRADE IT. note I AM NOT GOING TO BUY VALOR GEAR NOR DOES VALOR UPGRADING REQUIRE DAILIES NOR DOES IT REQUIRE REP OF ANY KIND.

    i VALOR UPGRADE this heroic piece of gear twice it is now hugely more powerful then it was and for this patch it is the best item in its slot however it is out of upgrade slots and thus a piece of gear that is equivalent to it in stats would be vastly superior since it could be upgraded and this piece could not.

    so its the day of the big patch theres a brand new raid and me and my raiding buddies are decked out in our heroic raid gear from last tier and in the normal raid one of my pieces drop right now its about the same as my heroic piece from last tier however i am valor capped from last week so i can then upgrade this piece twice making it tons stronger then my old piece meaning boss drops are still more important despite the fact that i can upgrade my heroic raid gear with valor however for the patch i obtain it in valor is a huge boon of stats and is incredibly rewarding FOR THAT PATCH AND IN NO WAY DEVALUES GEAR FROM THE NEXT PATCH.

    if you dont understand now your just flatout trolling or an idiot
    All of which doesn't change the fact that by design the point system CANNOT BE AS REWARDING AS BOSS LOOT. The valor gear you had before was almost as rewarding, far more than it is today and that was fine. Almost not as rewarding mind you. Point upgrade or gear it doesn't matter. Valor points (he doesn't say gear) cannot be a legitimate path to reward because then boss drops would seem secondary which is what they want to get away from.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    TommyIommi, Valor gear grind is not designed to be the end game. Heroic raid gear is the end game. If valor gear is YOUR end game then hey, you can get all that you want from dungeon valor.
    It never was. It was however vastly more rewarding than it is currently. In any event I can't simple get it out of dungeons. I have to do dailies as well.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Most of which could be farmed in dungeons to some extent or another and none of it also required I spend valor.
    No real differnce between spending valor or spending gold. Both are currency and both required rep grinds. Apples to apples. BTW - 3/10 for trolling. 10/10 if you are just not understanding this.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    All of which doesn't change the fact that by design the point system CANNOT BE AS REWARDING AS BOSS LOOT. The valor gear you had before was almost as rewarding, far more than it is today and that was fine. Almost not as rewarding mind you. Point upgrade or gear it doesn't matter. Valor points (he doesn't say gear) cannot be a legitimate path to reward because then boss drops would seem secondary which is what they want to get away from.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:23 PM ----------



    It never was. It was however vastly more rewarding than it is.

    so its the day of the big patch theres a brand new raid and me and my raiding buddies are decked out in our heroic raid gear from last tier and in the normal raid one of my pieces drop right now its about the same as my heroic piece from last tier however i am valor capped from last week so i can then upgrade this piece twice making it tons stronger then my old piece meaning boss drops are still more important despite the fact that i can upgrade my heroic raid gear with valor however for the patch i obtain it in valor is a huge boon of stats and is incredibly rewarding FOR THAT PATCH AND IN NO WAY DEVALUES GEAR FROM THE NEXT PATCH.

    learn to read
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by GnomercyBeastmaster View Post
    No real differnce between spending valor or spending gold. Both are currency and both required rep grinds. Apples to apples. BTW - 3/10 for trolling. 10/10 if you are just not understanding this.
    Theirs a massive difference are you kidding me? You've got to be trolling me. Imagine if the rep gear currently was sold for gold and we had an actual valor vendor who wasn't tied to rep. It would be a huge difference. It would be oddly enough exactly what cataclysm was.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 06:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    so its the day of the big patch theres a brand new raid and me and my raiding buddies are decked out in our heroic raid gear from last tier and in the normal raid one of my pieces drop right now its about the same as my heroic piece from last tier however i am valor capped from last week so i can then upgrade this piece twice making it tons stronger then my old piece meaning boss drops are still more important despite the fact that i can upgrade my heroic raid gear with valor however for the patch i obtain it in valor is a huge boon of stats and is incredibly rewarding FOR THAT PATCH AND IN NO WAY DEVALUES GEAR FROM THE NEXT PATCH.

    learn to read
    I read it. Still doesn't change the fact that their goal is to make boss drops more epic. The point system by design then CANNOT BE AS EPIC as getting boss drops which they want to be the most epic. I.E REWARDING.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-11-16 at 06:28 PM.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasffion View Post
    So what are your suggestions for other options keeping in mind that Dungeons are rewarding enough as is and Valor Gear needs some sort of gate above and beyond valor caps and walking up to a vendor.
    My suggestion, reduce all valor gear to item level 476 with no faction requirements. Put some 483 item level gear available for valor points after getting the faction reps, valor cost ~20% increased from current valor costs.

    Increase valor rewards from everything old to ~75%-80% of their patch 4.3 level (and raid bosses to 100% of their 4.3 level) and adjust valor rewards from scenarios and daily quests to match, something along the lines of:
    Raid Boss - 100 valor
    Heroic Dungeon - 125 Valor, 75 valor for subsequent heroics
    Scenario - 80 valor, 50 valor for subsequent scenarios in the same day
    LFR Wing - 200 Valor, 100 for subsequent clears
    Daily Quest - 10 Valor

    Increase the weekly valor cap to 1250 per week, and the overall valor cap to 5000

    Allow the purchase of elder charms of good fortune for 250 valor each
    Increase the elder charm of good fortune cap to 20 or 25

    Implement Valor upgrade system with currently proposed numbers

    Problem Solved - Raid Drops are the primary source of gear on all difficulty levels, but valor allows those behind the gear curve to catch up and helps to offset poor RNG through elder charms of good fortune. The time investment in capping valor is decreased dramatically but you have to do more than walk up to a vendor to get the best gear and the rate of attaining progression gear is not increased dramatically.
    Last edited by DisposableHero; 2012-11-16 at 06:29 PM. Reason: for clarity

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