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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you're going to be like that, http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

    Using 25-man Normal because Heroic still lacks enough data for some fights to have anything usable.

    Enhancement is, according to all the logs on WoL, #5 overall. They are in the top 10 specs for all 6 fights in HoF, top 5 specs on 5/6. In MSV, they are in the top 10 on 5/6, top 5 on 3/6. ToES is still new and the data's a bit sparse, but still top 10 on 4/4, top 5 on 2/4.

    If you're claiming that WoL data says that Enh is only in the top 10 specs for 2 fights in T14, then you literally have not looked at the data you're using. Because they're doing really, really well.
    10 man progression not so much: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/dps/

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronix View Post
    Using that as the basis of your argument is so wrong I can't even begin to explain.....

    Raidbots is much better than SimC to determine class performance, as it's using real world data over made up profiles which can (and have been proven) to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmortis View Post
    I've seen mentioned that our BiS gear selection isn't ideal and we're missing some gems etc. This is certainly possible as our BiS profiles are usually done in a rush before a patch goes live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
    By fiber be purged

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronix View Post
    A number of things wrong with that data sample.

    1) You're only looking at top ranks. Just because you're not top doesn't mean you're not worth taking.
    2) You're looking at a sample of data from a raid which has been out one week. Not enough data to make any comparisons at all.

    And that's just the obvious flaws the data you linked. SimC might not be the best data to use but neither is WoL. They are not tools for class comparison. They are tools to help you better yourself by looking at your gameplay in a greater depth and working out how to improve it, which many many people don't seem to understand.

  4. #24
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronix View Post
    There is so much egregiously wrong with what you just linked.

    1> There isn't enough data on Terrace yet to be firm about anything.

    2> You're linking to the top parses on WoL. Top parses are statistically useless for what we're discussing, which is class balance. This is why the "Top 100" rankings on Raidbots is also useless. If you want the mathematical theory proving why this is true, there's an ex-sticky here. Top parse comparisons do have uses, but for other purposes than determining class rankings.

    3> Looking at Raidbots 10-man Normal, on "All parses" (Normal again used because some fights don't have enough data to be tracked on Heroic mode); http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/ Enhancement is again #5 overall. And with a similar spread per boss as in 25-man.


    Seriously, if your argument is "Enhancement isn't doing well in raiding", you're flat-out wrong and not checking the relevant data. Every single source we have says they're doing great.

  5. #25
    The Patient Sorbus's Avatar
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    Now that enhancement is doing well in Sims and stuff, I'm performing the worst I ever have. Personal regression going on... I need to find that "spark" again.

  6. #26
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    I'll prob stick with mastery personally.....haste loses its effect when you are not constantly meleeing an enemy and being mobile plus target switching are common in pve or pvp, meanwhile mastery works on damage when stationary plus attacks you can use while mobile also get buffed with mastery. I also find that sims love to make haste seem stronger cause of MW5 but we can't always use MW5 at the same quick use rate as the sims or get as many procs cause not always melee swinging unlike the patchwerk based sims.

    I wouldn't bother reforging just to stack haste, but I'm sure there is some "magic number' that you should have atleast a certain % of, just like crit is usually 33% or so, so I wouldn't have zero haste either.

  7. #27
    High Overlord TecPontificates's Avatar
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    This (like most other things) is anecdotal, however-

    At around ilvl 490, I've been experimenting with reforges, namely haste vs. crit (mastery still on top, around 49.5%) - mostly because of the feedback loop where crit procs Flurry which enhances haste which causes more crits. I perform best at the momemt with about equal amounts of haste and crit.

    When I fired up SimCraft, I was rather surprised to see the graph lines for DPS per point secondary stat were so close together that I could not really tell them apart (crit was actually slightly on top, even a bit above mastery). In other words, no matter which secondary I get more of at my gear level, my DPS will go up about the same amount.

    Tec

  8. #28
    Field Marshal Greyback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevenzb View Post


    anyone else bummed about having to start gemming haste again? [...]
    The graph is just saying that you would benefit more from haste while getting better gear than mastery and crit. I'm not even close to your gearlvl but for me all three plots are very close together than in your case. You got 43% mastery and almost 21% crit and 9% haste so it's almost a 4:2:1 (mas, crit, haste) ratio. When upgrading your current gear by about 500 points in secondary stats you will benefit more from haste and the ratio might shift towards a 2:1:1 ratio (mas, crit, haste)

    Græy
    Last edited by Greyback; 2012-11-19 at 06:42 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyback View Post
    The graph is just saying that you would benefit more from haste in you current gear than mastery and crit. I'm not even close to your gearlvl but for me all three plots are very close together and shift their importance much more than in your case. You got 43% mastery and almost 21% crit so it's 2:1 and the graph shows that this ratio is optimal for your gear. All you have to find out how haste fits in there. Currently it's 4:2:1 (mas, crit, haste on your gear), however this haste rating is too low, so after increasing the value of haste on your gear over the other stats you will gain more DPS. Maybe speaking of a 2:1:1 (mas, haste, crit) ratio or something similar will give you better results (35%, 17%, 17% might be possible with reforging?).

    Græy
    Heres a nooby question. That graph, Im not sure how Im supposed to be reading it so thats why I ask: The graph plots (Stat, DPS), but how do you go about it? You just increase the stat value and check for the DPS while leaving every other value the same? Or you scale everything else but the particular stat more than the others?

    It might be a dumb question but... I just have to ask. Mainly because if it just tells you how much a singular stat increases your DPS then that means its not consistent with.. reality?. You can´t just UP your haste/crit/mastery without loosing something in the process. Im not sure if Im making much sence but I would like to get a little explanation of how that chart came to be.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by caballitomalo; 2012-11-19 at 06:37 PM.

  10. #30
    Field Marshal Greyback's Avatar
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    You are right if you reforge more haste, crit or mastery is going down. But you have to keep those stats in balance. I'm not sure if I'm reading this graph as it should be done, however the x-graph is plotted from -1000 till 1000. The 0/y-value tells you your current gear DPS. However while increasing the secondary stats (hit and expertise cap is mandatory of course) on the x-axis by a certain amount you can see which of the three named stats your DPS will benefit the most from.

    Græy

    PS: mine does look like this

    Last edited by Greyback; 2012-11-19 at 06:50 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyback View Post
    You are right if you reforge more haste, crit or mastery is going down. But you have to keep those stats in balance. I'm not sure if I'm reading this graph as it should be done, however the x-graph is plotted from -1000 till 1000. The 0/y-value tells you your current gear DPS. However while increasing the secondary stats (hit and expertise cap is mandatory of course) on the x-axis by a certain amount you can see which of the three named stats your DPS will benefit the most from.

    Græy

    PS: mine does look like this

    I see, that clears a few things out, thank you sir. So the point is to see which secondary stat provides the biggest gain at current gear set up.

  12. #32
    Field Marshal Greyback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    I see, that clears a few things out, thank you sir. So the point is to see which secondary stat provides the biggest gain at current gear set up.
    ... which secondary stats will provide the biggest gain while upgrading your gear. The point 0/81391 (in my example) shows your current gear. While adding additional secondary stat points the graph shows which one you should prefer over the other two. If I add e.g. 1250 secondary stats my DPS goes up (what a surprise ^^) and I should rank mastery oder crit over haste. Taking my stats 43% mas, 16% crit and 7% haste so the ratio is something like 13:5:2 (mas, crit, haste). If I upgrade +1250 2ndary stats this might shift into 10:5:2 or 4:2:1.

    Græy
    Last edited by Greyback; 2012-11-19 at 10:42 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyback View Post
    ... which secondary stats will provide the biggest gain while upgrading your gear. The point 0/81391 (in my example) shows your current gear. While adding additional secondary stat points the graph shows which one you should prefer over the other two. If I add e.g. 1250 secondary stats my DPS goes up (what a surprise ^^) and I should rank mastery oder crit over haste. Taking my stats 43% mas, 16% crit and 7% haste so the ratio is something like 13:5:2 (mas, crit, haste). If I upgrade +1250 2ndary stats this might shift into 10:5:2 or 4:2:1.

    Græy
    Ah! so the graph does take under account that the other stats do go up as well. Now THAT makes sence. Thanks for clearing that out for me. It just felt odd to assume that you, some how, could just up 1 stat =P.

    Thanks.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    Ah! so the graph does take under account that the other stats do go up as well. Now THAT makes sence. Thanks for clearing that out for me. It just felt odd to assume that you, some how, could just up 1 stat =P.

    Thanks.
    The sim only changes 1 stat at a time with DPS plot.

  15. #35
    Brewmaster Murderdoll's Avatar
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    I simmed last night after getting a few upgrades this week.

    Mine is all over the shop.

    Simmed crit highest, then mastery. Made a few reforging changes and it said mastery again. Went back then it simmed crit.

    It was such a minor amount I didn't really take much notice of it and will continue to prioritize Mastery > Haste > Crit, but its something to keep an eye on.

    Im still in some heroic blues so Im expecting it to open up a bit more when Im getting properly geared.

  16. #36
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    I have tried both and i prefer mastery over haste (10k mastery op). I could see haste being better in later tiers due to scaling but we'll see.
    494 ilevel enh shaman

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    The sim only changes 1 stat at a time with DPS plot.
    Ah shank. It does? Back to confused again I guess.

    Well after reading all the theorycrafting I could, Im still going mastery/haste - crit. At the end of the day it seems like when you take one stat down then it becomes a lil better, then, when you put it back, the previous one becomes a lil better again XD. Its a vicious cycle!

    I´ll seat tight for now until I get more gear (still doing LFR) and can get a better hold on stats in general. This threat has been very helpful.

  18. #38
    I'll keep playing with the data, but it seems fairly clear to me that Blizz intention is for all three secondary stats to be equally viable, to enhancement shaman.

    Protoman, I share the same view on movement vs. static fights, but one advantage of haste, that I think you may be neglecting, is survivability, and longevity-based damage gains. Specifically, I notice my maelstrom procs being smoother, with more haste, whereas before, I sometimes had to wait, to be able to drop an HR, or self-heal with a HS. I'm using conductivity, as well as the maelstrom healing glyph.

    As for dps/damage, I'm leading my guild's 10 man charts, as well as almost all of the LFRs/Sha of Angers I go into. My recent best (unflasked, no pots, but popped all CDs) was 116k dps over a one-minute fight duration, on one of the heroic dungeon bosses (can't remember which). Last night's LFRs tended to be around 77k dps, over the course of the fights. It seems like my dps has climbed, slightly, from where it was with mastery > crit > haste. I did lose a small amount of AoE damage, but I'm still very high on the AoE charts, respective to the groups I've been in. I'm also 485 ilvl, atm.

  19. #39
    I`m actually at 487 ilvl and i priorize haste, i do in single target like 90k-95k dps, so i think i`ll stick with haste, haste>crit>mastery.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kesen23 View Post
    I`m actually at 487 ilvl and i priorize haste, i do in single target like 90k-95k dps, so i think i`ll stick with haste, haste>crit>mastery.
    I'd like to see some logs or something. Preferably from feng, because this statement reeks..

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