Military use of melee warriors

[xensorlol]

Well, I suppose it depends on what sort of 'magi' you have. Warlocks sacrafice their own blood and self to cast their magic, so the more powerful the warlock, the longer it will take for him/her to tire. Magi use their own energy to cast their spells, which draw upon both the Well of Eternity and their own knowledge of magic. The more powerful the mage, the longer it will take for him/her to tire. I may have been a tad bit misleading with my previous post, but my point still stands. Also, @The Madgod, I know an army of magi would be almost impossible to acquire considering their rarity. It was an example I put forth, not an actual scenario that could stand a chance at occurring.
Warriors will train to become accustomed and used to the weight of their armor/weapons, but will last longer because the energy they use to fight is their own. A more conditioned, experienced warrior won't waste all his energy on pointless attacks, but use it wisely. So, again, it all depends on who you have fighting for you.
And Roggles . . . sorry, but I'm not going to look for hours on end on Google and WowWiki to try and find the quote you've requested. I doubt one even exists because of the facts I've just put forth. ^_^

[The Madgod]

Well, I suppose it depends on what sort of 'magi' you have. Warlocks sacrafice their own blood and self to cast their magic, so the more powerful the warlock, the longer it will take for him/her to tire. Magi use their own energy to cast their spells, which draw upon both the Well of Eternity and their own knowledge of magic. The more powerful the mage, the longer it will take for him/her to tire. I may have been a tad bit misleading with my previous post, but my point still stands.

Despite the fact that it wouldn't be fatigue that would defeat an army.

Also, @The Madgod, I know an army of magi would be almost impossible to acquire considering their rarity. It was an example I put forth, not an actual scenario that could stand a chance at occurring.

Of course it's speculation, but you said the outcome would be that the casters would be defeated because of something that wouldn't be the decisive factor.

And Roggles . . . sorry, but I'm not going to look for hours on end on Google and WowWiki to try and find the quote you've requested. I doubt one even exists because of the facts I've just put forth. ^_^

Then you're simply speculating that magi tire more quickly and don't have facts to back it up, unless you can cite some sources.

[xensorlol]

I do remember saying, in my post, that such a quote would not exist because of my facts. Because of the fact that it depends on how powerful/skilled your mage is. I can't really further explain that. Obviously I have nothing to back it up.... ^^

[The Madgod]

I do remember saying, in my post, that such a quote would not exist because of my facts. Because of the fact that it depends on how powerful/skilled your mage is. I can't really further explain that. Obviously I have nothing to back it up.... ^^

You didn't really say any facts other than the fact that stronger people will be able to do what they do for longer periods of time, which wouldn't stop there being a quote about relative efficiency.

[xensorlol]

Well, Google has nothing, the books I own probably have something but I'm trying to do homework right now, and I'm sure you could search something up on WoWWiki. <shrug>

[The Madgod]

I'll stop you before you actually try and research it (though that's your job, since you're the one proposing this)... there isn't anything that directly talks about relative efficiency, though there are several references to magic being fairly tiring even after single spells (teleportation, large spell matrices, powerful arcane bolts).

[xensorlol]

I don't actually want to argue about it, because honestly I hate it lol. It's just a point I thought I'd bring up. I'll probably end up looking it up later on just because I'll eventually get curious in spite of myself.

[The Madgod]

I'm not arguing, there's not really much up for debate, unless you want to extrapolate that due to the larger amount of references of fatigue via magic compared to the amount of references to physical fatigue that magi tire at a faster rate relatively speaking, which I actually hold to be a good interpretation... though like I said it isn't the primary reason people don't make armies entirely composed of casters.

[xensorlol]

Oh, I know you weren't. I'm just implying that I didn't want to start one. :P
And I agree. Physical fatigue and fatigue regarding magical energies being consumed (which I believe drains your own as well) to cast magic are different and both have their own pros and cons.
And yeah, I get your meaning about the whole "army of magi" thing. Like you stated before: Only certain races can really be magi (other than humans), and an entire army of magi is kind of a difficult thing to produce.

[Vaelyn]

Because armor on Azeroth used to be pretty much all magically fortified to stand up to bullets and fireballs.

Until they removed resistances from gear... Fixed that for you.

[xensorlol]

^^ Well . . . sure. I mean, if you were a warrior going up against a mage, you'd want your armor enchanted to help deflect magic!

[Trigg]

why does a race with spaceships still use "stoneage" weapons.

Which race is this? Do tell. As far as i know, there are no races that have developed spaceships that currently use stone-age weaponry.

The Draenei came to azeroth in a Naaru vessel, so it isn't theres.

[Kelta]

are you aware of the 27 foot principle?

it describes how a person with a knife has the upper hand on a person with a gun inside 27 feet, providing the person with the gun does not have it drawn.

That was my favourite day of CQC training - without being aware that the instructor was using me to demonstrate this principle, the knife wielding attacker rushed me. I shouted the usual 'stop or I'll shoot', but after the attacker had covered about 20 feet, I realised I was never going to get the pistol out in time, so I lifted my forward foot to the attacker's chest height and let him run into it. As he lay on the ground trying to figure out why the far wall suddenly had ceiling lights mounted on it, I kicked away the knife and completed my drawing the gun.

And that is how I became the only trainee my CQC instructor had ever seen draw a pistol in less time than the knife wielder could cover 27 feet: by making sure the knife wielder only covered 26 of them. Which is also why melee abilities/specialists are worth having, even if you expect to only engage at range.

[Khorianas]

It is slightly of topic, but I would like to offer an argument on topic of the mages tiring faster. The only source I came up with in an instant was Rhonins casting experience in the War of the Ancients Trilogy. He describes that it is way easier and less demanding for him to cast with the original Well of Eternity still pulsing. But after the first Shattering, its magical energy has dispersed to all of Azeroth it is a much bigger feat to cast a spell. This kind of gives the idea of magic being a at least partially finite resource and in some way location dependent. If we go with that, one could argue that a huge amount of casters on the same battlefield would tire these resources faster. So it is not the mages alone tiring but their resource also. This is just food for thought, though

[Sorrior]

It is slightly of topic, but I would like to offer an argument on topic of the mages tiring faster. The only source I came up with in an instant was Rhonins casting experience in the War of the Ancients Trilogy. He describes that it is way easier and less demanding for him to cast with the original Well of Eternity still pulsing. But after the first Shattering, its magical energy has dispersed to all of Azeroth it is a much bigger feat to cast a spell. This kind of gives the idea of magic being a at least partially finite resource and in some way location dependent. If we go with that, one could argue that a huge amount of casters on the same battlefield would tire these resources faster. So it is not the mages alone tiring but their resource also. This is just food for thought, though

I think what he meant was that it' less mentally tiring because he deosn't have to try as hard to channel the magic. It's not so much that a group pof mages would make it harder as it is that compared to when the well was full there is alot LESS magic.

Think of it this way. Azeroth as it is today is like the Alps or Himilayas REALLY low on breatheable air due to altitude. While Azeroth is pretty low on magic. BUT what if you suddenly had so much air to breath that BAM you don't need to worry. The increased lung capacity could very well let you run farther or not get winded as easily. It's similar for Rhonin and the magic from the well. He'd trained to run while in the mountains so when he left the he suddenly had a MUCH easier time.

I think THAT is what he meant not that magic is so finite. I guess another thing could be spenidng days looking fr food ina desert and all of a sudden there is so much food you just reach out and grab it.

Oh and war of the ancients IS the best example in lore. Basically if you recall while rhonin could basically spam super magic most of the NE's were so used to the well that even WITH it they were able to get tired without it and they were basically useless. So yeah it's more like what they're used to.

[Khorianas]

I can somewhat agree with that analogy, but it ends where air is indeed spent while breathing. Then again, air is usually also in virtually limitless supply. Sadly we know next to nothing about the finity or infinity of magic we just have the feelings of Rhonin towards it. Maybe the density of magic is used as a measure to the Magnitude or Power of the magic one is able to work. Perhaps it is about "feeling" the presence of magic and redirecting the flow or better holding it together for reshaping it. There most likely is a maximum amount of magic you can keep in one spell with "denser" magic it is easier too keep a big amount together and focus it in one cast. I woul think the "breeting in" or "collecting magic energy" is the tiring process in it. In the end mages have to manage one resource more which they have to attune to. While it is an energy source that leads to massive effects, it is a burden. Also recently in the Tides of War Karlecgos explains to Jaina that magic at it's core is a complex assortment of Formula, so math. There has to be some kind of balance and limit to it.

Also on the core topic "casters tyring" again we don't really have solid evidence of the rate of tiring of casters. We do know that they need to eat and drink a lot to keep casting (Mentioned in every other warcraft book, but maybe also a wink to casters eating and drinking inagame, again difficult.) So it is also physically straining in some way. In the Tides of War, two magi reenforcing a gate with magic are overwhelmed in a period of time I would count in the range of hours if not less. Highly trained mages from Dalaran too. Sadly most of our Novels tell of rather prominent and powerful mages so there is no saying what an everyday battlemage can do.

[Sorrior]

I can somewhat agree with that analogy, but it ends where air is indeed spent while breathing. Then again, air is usually also in virtually limitless supply. Sadly we know next to nothing about the finity or infinity of magic we just have the feelings of Rhonin towards it. Maybe the density of magic is used as a measure to the Magnitude or Power of the magic one is able to work. Perhaps it is about "feeling" the presence of magic and redirecting the flow or better holding it together for reshaping it. There most likely is a maximum amount of magic you can keep in one spell with "denser" magic it is easier too keep a big amount together and focus it in one cast. I woul think the "breeting in" or "collecting magic energy" is the tiring process in it. In the end mages have to manage one resource more which they have to attune to. While it is an energy source that leads to massive effects, it is a burden. Also recently in the Tides of War Karlecgos explains to Jaina that magic at it's core is a complex assortment of Formula, so math. There has to be some kind of balance and limit to it.

Also on the core topic "casters tyring" again we don't really have solid evidence of the rate of tiring of casters. We do know that they need to eat and drink a lot to keep casting (Mentioned in every other warcraft book, but maybe also a wink to casters eating and drinking inagame, again difficult.) So it is also physically straining in some way. In the Tides of War, two magi reenforcing a gate with magic are overwhelmed in a period of time I would count in the range of hours if not less. Highly trained mages from Dalaran too. Sadly most of our Novels tell of rather prominent and powerful mages so there is no saying what an everyday battlemage can do.

Yeah that's basically whay i was trying to say. The tiring bit is the mental endeavor to gather/channel/form the magic. With more around him he was using the same force as before only with so much more mana it was as if his normal molehill became a mountain.

[Throren]

well look at those spanish buggers that attacked the mayans/azetecs/whatever (not even going to attempt to spell their name) they had cannons and firearms but also used armor and swords and cavalry and what not.

I guess the best fantasy example to compare to would be the empire in the fantasy version of Warhammer, they have spearmen, archers, cavalry etc, but also have muskets and cannons (so do the dwarves who invented them of course :P)

some examples



Fight starts at 1:40

or this pic

http://oformi.net/uploads/gallery/main/81/warhammer.jpg

[Notamonk]

Unless you have an army of night elf rangers equipped with Thor'idal, the Stars' Fury then you're better off just slicing your opponents head off or blowing them up with magic!

I never understood why people try and make logical sense out of anything in wow.. I mean come on its a FANTASY game for crying out loud!!

[Throren]

Also look at it this way, dwarves invented tanks, guns, cannons and gunpowder in general yet even they prefer to stock most of their warrior in heavy dwarven steal swinging hammers and axes, why? Because while guns may have their uses and are effective if used right, on the larger scale of things, melee is better :P